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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We'll turn now to the crisis in Israel where mass protests and a general strike yesterday caused Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to delay his plan to weaken the Israeli Supreme Court. NPR's Daniel Estrin joins us from Tel Aviv now. Hey, Daniel. We really appreciate your time today when there's so much happening,l and you're reporting for the whole NPR network, so thanks for coming on WNYC today. Hello from New York.

Daniel Estrin: Thanks. Thanks, Brian, for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Could you remind people of some of the basics here? What's the role of the Supreme Court in Israel compared, say, to the role of the Supreme Court in the United States?

Daniel Estrin: Well, I think we have to understand, first of all, there's no constitution in Israel. This is something that usually countries that their founding drafted constitution, but there was not an agreement. When Israel was founded in 1948, what does that constitution stand for? There are too many groups here in Israel, religious and secular Jews, Palestinian Arabs, and they didn't all agree on the basic premise of what Israel should be. Should there be freedom of equality between Jews and Arabs? Should there be equality between men and women? That's the background you have to understand, that Israel defines itself as a Jewish and democratic state. There's an inherent oxymoron there when, today, 21% of the country is not Jewish, they're Palestinian citizens of Israel. There's always been this tug of war between the Jewish character and the democratic character. With no constitution, there is instead this set of basic laws that guarantee basic human rights in Israel. The one institution that is tasked with protecting those rights is the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court really is the only check on power in Israel.

There are not as many checks and balances in Israel like there are in the US. In the US, you have two houses of Congress. The party in control of Congress or the Senate, the legislative branch, is not necessarily the same party that controls the executive branch, the White House. In Israel, the executive and the legislative are essentially one and the same, or controlled by the same parties. The only true check on Israel's elected leadership and the only true check on power is the Supreme Court. That's how you have to understand that when Netanyahu and his coalition say, "The unelected court has too much power over the majority, over the elected majority," that's where they're coming from. They want to weaken some of the court's powers and independence.

Brian Lehrer: Well, if it's an unelected court, who appoints the members of the Israeli Supreme Court?

Daniel Estrin: The way that the Supreme Court justices are selected, there's a judicial selection committee. There is a representative of the coalition, the ruling government, there is representative of the opposition, but essentially, they do not have controlling votes. There are members of the judiciary and Israel's law community. What Netanyahu and his coalition want to do is to change that. That is the hallmark of the judicial overhaul that they've been trying to pass. They want to change the makeup of the judicial selection committee, so giving the ruling coalition the controlling vote in selecting some Supreme Court justices.

Brian Lehrer: There wouldn't be an executive branch as there isn't with a check on the parliamentary majority, and there wouldn't so much be a judicial branch with a check on the elected parliamentary majority because they would choose the Supreme Court justices. Are there certain Supreme Court rulings that Netanyahu and other Israelis on the right have especially objected to leading to this plan?

Daniel Estrin: Oh, yes. There are two big ones. The Supreme Court has restricted Israeli settlement building in the occupied West Bank. They have rule you can't build on privately-owned Palestinian land, and that is something that irks the far-right and the ultra nationalist pro-settler parties that make up the coalition. The other big Supreme Court move is the court deciding to end an exemption for ultra Orthodox Hasidic Jews, exempting them from serving in the military. That is something that the other element of this government, the ultra Orthodox Jewish parties in the government, they don't like that. In general, there's been this right-wing war on the Supreme Court for many years now because in general, when the court rules in favor of Palestinian rights or allows Arab parties in Israel's parliament to run for elections, the right wing objects and says the Supreme Court is too liberal, too left-wing. This has been a mission of theirs for a long time to overhaul the judiciary. For the last three months, we've seen this real battle over how Netanyahu and his coalition can do this.

They have a raft of legislation that they've wanted to pass.

They've wanted to pass an override rule so that if the Supreme Court overturns the law, the parliament can turn around, and with a simple majority, just say, "Sorry, Supreme Court, we have the final word, and we're overturning your overturned decision." Netanyahu put that aside during these protests, and now, what they have been looking to do is to change the rules so that-- and it's a little bit wonky here, but that Israel's controlling majority government and the coalition would have unchecked power to select two Supreme Court justices, and then to have various degrees of power in selecting other justices.

Brian Lehrer: What we've been describing as mass protests over the plan to weaken the Supreme Court, how mass are they in terms of the different kinds of Israelis who've been turning out to participate?

Daniel Estrin: Its mass. Its massive. This is really an unprecedented protest. Even for a place like Israel, which is always stormy and historic things are happening and people are on the streets, we haven't any seen something quite like this. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of Israelis blocking streets, we're talking about grandmothers, retired people, people who never protested in their life who say they are scared that Israel will become a dictatorship if these changes are made to the judiciary. More than that, they're scared that an ultra religious government can impose restrictions on their way of life. We've seen most crucially military reservists refusing to show up for duty and thousands of them threatening not to serve if this judicial overhaul passes. Now, the climax was this weekend. Prime Minister Netanyahu-- Well, let me start here. This weekend, the defense minister came out opposing the judicial overhaul, he said it was threatening Israel's national security with the protests spreading inside the army, and Prime Minister Netanyahu fired him, fired the defense minister.

Now, when that happened, it was Sunday night, I was at a colleague's home for a Ramadan Iftar meal. They were breaking the fast. I saw this news, the defense minister is fired. I hit the highway to head back to file for NPR, and I was blocked on the highway by spontaneous protests. Thousands of people blocking the highway who came out spontaneously saying, Netanyahu firing the defense minister just for speaking out, this is the stuff of dictatorships. Then, the very next day, this was already yesterday, Israel's biggest trade union declared a nationwide strike. Post offices were closed, flights were delayed and grounded, malls were closed, hospitals were on only emergency mode. Even McDonald's joined the strike in protest in solidarity of the protests. There were even reports that Netanyahu's defense attorney said he wouldn't represent Netanyahu in his corruption trial if he didn't back down.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Daniel Estrin: This is pretty wild, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip from your report on Morning Edition today that I would love you to elaborate on, Daniel. It's an Israeli protester named Matan Rosenberg.

Matan Rosenberg: What happened to me as a secular liberal is, for a decade, my generation and all these people were just avoiding politics at any cost and what Bibi did. I'm happy for that, I thank him for that as waking up the liberal camp.

Brian Lehrer: Bibi, of course, the nickname for Netanyahu the Prime Minister. My guest is NPR's Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv. To Mr. Rosenberg's point, has what he describes as a generation of secular liberal Israeli Jews been avoiding politics, what's he referring to there?

Daniel Estrin: Well, think about it. Netanyahu has been in power for more than a decade and has dominated Israeli politics for even more than that. There are young Israeli voters who their entire lives, most of the years that they've been alive, Netanyahu was prime minister. Under Netanyahu, Israel has shifted rightward. Netanyahu has been a polarizing figure, and he's led a discourse against the left-wing. The word leftist, [unintelligible 00:10:14] in Hebrew, that's a bad word in Israel. Leftist traitor, that's an epithet you hear. If you look at the demographics in Israel, the future of this country belongs to the right wing. You see that, today, 62% of Israeli Jews define themselves as right-wing, that's according to a recent poll. 24% define themselves as being in the center. Only 11% define themselves as being left-wing. How religious you are gives a clue to how right-wing you are as an Israeli Jew, a majority of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews define themselves as right-wing, they have higher birth rates.

A young Israeli, like the man you heard in his '20s, who lives in Tel Aviv, secular liberal, looks at the future of their country and says, "I'm an endangered species and I wonder if I'm going to have a good future for me and my kids." They fear what their role would be in this society.

Brian Lehrer: How much is the underlying issue here, the Supreme Court rulings that protect Palestinian rights? How much is it about ultra-orthodox power rising for the laws of the land as they affect other Israeli Jews?

Daniel Estrin: Well, I think in these protests, it's the latter that is concerning the protestors who are mostly secular, but not only, democracy-minded. They're worried that this government with ultra-religious, ultra-orthodox Jewish parties will impose a form of religion in the public sphere. The issue of Palestinian rights is really interesting. I was speaking today to Noa Sattath, she heads the Association for Civil Rights in Israel. It's basically Israel's ACLU. She says, "The strength and the weakness of this protest movement is that the protests have sustained themselves for three months and did lead Netanyahu to cave under pressure, but these protestors have been fighting for the status quo. Keep Israel democratic, don't change Israel." She says, "The model of fighting for the status quo is problematic and is immoral and it ignores Israel's human rights abuses toward Palestinians and the occupied West Bank and discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel who are about a fifth of the population. She said, "The status quo is actually what has led us in Israel to where we are today." She says, "To save democracy, you need to fight for a larger vision."

That is the challenge now of some of the protestors in the square challenging this element of the protests, trying to challenge Israelis to imagine a different future and a new future that includes equality for Palestinians and speaks about the elephant in the room, the occupation of the West Bank.

Brian Lehrer: Is there evidence that what the guy in that clip, young man Matan Rosenberg protestor, thanks Netanyahu for is actually happening? Has the dormant political left, or maybe we should just call it a dormant secular liberal population, been awakened by the push to weaken the Supreme Court?

Daniel Estrin: I think it's too early to tell what exactly where this is going to lead politically. You get a sense in the street when you see these protestors that it's not about left versus right, but that it's much more about democracy-minded Israelis' rule of law versus those populist Israelis who prefer a different version of Israel that prioritizes the Jewish character over the Democratic character. You see banners and you hear chants against racism, in favor of women's rights. This is still emerging, and even though only a minority of protestors are holding up banners saying there's no democracy with a military occupation over millions of Palestinian non-citizens who cannot vote, those protestors are there in the square. They're tolerated, they're not getting driven out, they're not getting beaten up, and so we'll have to see if these protests sustain, continue to be sustained, and whether they morph.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a few phone calls. People are calling in, not surprisingly,on various sides of this. Here's Jack in Queens who I think is going to support the changes that Netanyahu wants to the Supreme Court. Jack, you’re on WNYC. Hello.

Jack: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I don't think Daniel's exactly being accurate in some of the things he says. Firstly, I want to preface what I'm saying is that I happen to be progressive. I'm probably more progressive than anyone on your show. However, is that I'm interested in the truth. If you recall, many years ago, President Roosevelt called our Supreme Court dictators in black robes. Is that because the Supreme Court overturned his really progressive great laws because they were reactionary pigs and this is the United States. As you know, he wanted to expand the court democratically. Is that even though I [unintelligible 00:16:01] and I don't like his politics, is that Israel, bizarrely enough, unlike any other country in the world, doesn't have a Supreme Court that's elected or democratic in any way. It's self-selected. Is that they select themselves. Is that the elected people have no say. If in fact, it was a rightist Supreme Court, it would never change. It just so happens that it's more centrist.

It never changes, but it should have Democratic input, and that, from my understanding of the reforms, would do that. Now, the fact that Bibi is a dictator or he's not a dictator is irrelevant. The fact is that the Supreme Court in Israel needs reforming, it's anti-democratic. Is that it makes up laws itself. It has nothing to do with the way-- Sometimes it's in favor of the Palestinians, sometimes it's not. I have Palestinian friends who think it's reactionary, but it doesn't matter. Is that it's an anti-democratic institution.

Brian Lehrer: Let me leave it there, Jack, and get Daniel's take on what you said. Daniel, enter wherever you want.

Daniel Estrin: Sure. Listen, the concept of democracy is one that I think a lot of people will disagree upon. Is democracy the elected majority or is democracy protecting minority rights? I think the answer is and even Netanyahu himself says that it's a bit of both. Now, the way that Supreme Court justices are appointed throughout the world, it's not just the United States' model, there are a lot of different models. The model here, at least when you speak to the judicial community, it's mostly a professional decision, but it is not-- look at the composition of the Judicial Selection Committee, and you'll see that it is made up of--there is a coalition, the ruling coalition. There is a member of the opposition. There are members of the Bar Association, and there are members of the Supreme Court.

It's a joint decision. We have seen that, in recent years, a diversification of Israel's judiciary in-- today, at the Supreme Court, you have modern Orthodox Jews who live in the settlements in the West Bank who are more conservative on policy. You also do have more liberal judges.

This is the crux of the matter, and this is actually going to be debated now when the coalition and the opposition start to negotiate this. Tonight, they're actually starting their first meetings at the President's house. They're going to be trying to negotiate some kind of reform. Can you rebalance or change the Judicial Selection Committee? There have been a lot of options that have been presented, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are many in the judicial community, Jack, who come out and say, "Yes, there are ways that we can change this system so that justices are chosen in a way that more Israelis see as fairly."

Brian Lehrer: Jack, thank you for your call. Judith in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Judith.

Judith: Good morning. I belong to the Women in Black, which is an anti-occupation thing that was created in Israel actually when it was Jews, Muslims, and Christians standing together quietly. It gradually spread from city to city within Israel, and now it's all over the world, and it's in New York. Every Thursday at five o'clock, we stand in Union Square across the street from Citibank and we hold signs and we give out leaflets that the occupation is killing us all and it's harming Israel. It's harming world security. If anyone wants to join us, it would be a very good thing. Five o'clock every Thursday, Union Square, Women In Black.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Thank you very much.

Judith: Thanks.

Brian Lehrer: Daniel, after you were on Morning Edition today, they interviewed former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to the left of Netanyahu who had this message for President Biden.

Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert: My advice to political leaders outside of the State of Israel, particularly to President Joe Biden, who is a good friend of mine, I've been knowing him for tens of years and worked with him, that he should not invite Netanyahu to visit America now. Let Netanyahu first of all restore some order, civility, and normality into the State of Israel before he is given any kind of recognition outside of the state of Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on NPR's Morning Edition this morning. Daniel, I see Biden has done just the opposite. He's invited Netanyahu to Washington. Do you know why?

Daniel Estrin: Brian, the truth is he hasn't yet invited Netanyahu to Washington, and there have been a lot of conflicting-

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I thought I saw some breaking news [inaudible 00:21:33] [crosstalk] sorry.

Daniel Estrin: -news and reports on that. No, don't be sorry. I'm happy you brought it up because this is confusing and this is a chance to set the record straight. The US Ambassador to Israel was interviewed on Israeli Army Radio this morning and asked, "When will Netanyahu finally be invited to visit President Biden in the White House?" That's something that's traditionally done when a new Israeli Prime Minister enters office just as Netanyahu reentered office about three months ago. The ambassador said, "Oh, it'll be soon. I'm sure it'll be soon." It wasn't an invitation, not an official invitation has been extended, but it's something that Israelis have been looking at very closely. Why hasn't Netanyahu been invited to the White House yet as he has in the past when he first came to power? It's something that I think shows the White House hesitation to embrace Netanyahu at this time of immense, unprecedented protest. Just imagine Netanyahu meeting Biden in the White House with hundreds of thousands of protestors in Israel and more protestors in Washington and Biden having to acknowledge that. It would be embarrassing and it might be embarrassing to Netanyahu and to Biden as well.

So far, Netanyahu has not been invited. Biden does have a very positive sentiment toward Israel. This is something that goes back many, many, many years. Biden sees Israel as a place of refuge after the Holocaust for Jews. I think Biden truly wants to move on from this spat. He did speak with Netanyahu recently and expressed his concern about this judicial overhaul. I think Biden is hoping to move on. He wants Israel and the Palestinians not to bother him while he's dealing with other things like China and Ukraine, but this issue about Israel and Israelis being concerned about the future of their democracy, it is concerning the White House. The US has a special relationship with Israel. It sees Israel as the only democracy in the Mid East. You can argue that point or not, but there is this US-Israel special relationship based on shared values, is how the US sees it. If Israel is not seen as democratic, that's a problem for the US.

Brian Lehrer: Well, last question, how much leverage does the United States government have over the government of Israel, one way or another, and how has Biden changed US policy toward Israel from President Donald Trump?

Daniel Estrin: Well, the question of leverage is really interesting. Biden did some pretty bold things, and the White House has done some, and State Department have done some bold things in recent weeks. That call to Netanyahu that I said. The White House making lots of phone calls to Israeli leaders in the last 48 hours urging compromise on this judicial overhaul. The State Department summoned the Israeli Ambassador to Washington over settlement policy. There is a lot of pressure being put on Israel, but the question of leverage is an interesting one because you hear more and more voices from within the Democratic Party, not only on the progressive wing, including centrists and in the Democratic Party, saying that the US should consider qualifying and conditioning its military aid to Israel on the better treatment of Palestinians. That is something that is not going to go away. The next president, the next Democratic president will not be like Biden. Biden unlike Trump, and unlike many and many other presidents, Democratic and Republican before him, Biden is not advancing a peace process right now between Israelis and Palestinians.

He sees it frankly as a waste of time. The two sides are not ready for that, according to the White House. Looking forward into the future, you can imagine the next Democratic president being much younger. You look at polls where younger Democrats do not have the same support for Israel that older Democrats have had. You could imagine a future US Democratic president saying, "Why should the US give Israel special treatment?" I was speaking today to a former Israeli intelligence official who used to deal with US-Israel relations, Eldad Shavit, he now works for Israel's leading Think Tank, The Israel National Security Studies, INSS. He has a new article. It's entitled US-Israel relations, nothing lasts forever. I think that's something to bear in mind.

Brian Lehrer: Well, this segment can't last forever, but Daniel Estrin, NPR reporter in Tel Aviv today, thank you. I really appreciate it. I know our listeners really appreciate that you took the time in the middle of all this to come on WNYC and explain it in so much detail. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Daniel Estrin: Very, very welcome. Thanks for having me, and thanks to your listeners.

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