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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer show on WNYC, good Monday morning everyone? We don't usually begin this show by saying what mug our guest drink their coffee in, but in this case, we will. Apparently former US ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch drinks out of a mug that says, "F U Putin." Except all the words are spelled out. That was reported first by Business Insider.

Maybe you've heard that she also has had bracelets made that say that and gave one to Steven Colbert on his show. Maybe this is not the diplomacy, if it is diplomacy we would expect from a distinguished former ambassador who was the picture of dignity when she was a witness at Donald Trump's Ukraine related impeachment hearings or after Trump fired her in an apparent act of workplace retaliation, but maybe it's private citizen diplomacy that meets the moment.

In any case, Marie Yovanovitch whose family fled both the Soviets and the Nazis in Europe has written a memoir called Lessons from the Edge. She certainly has the background to understand what's happening in the Kremlin right now, as well as in Ukraine. She grew up with both Russian and English spoken at home. In college at Princeton, she majored in history and Russian studies. She served on the Russia desk at the State Department under President Clinton.

She was senior advisor to the undersecretary of state for political affairs under President George W. Bush. All that before being posted to Ukraine and not being a fan of President Trump's attempt to shake down Volodymyr Zelenskyy to announce a fake investigation of Joe Biden. Remember that? Maybe she's got just the right experience to design the most geopolitically relevant mugs and bracelets of 2022. Ambassador Yovanovitch, thank you very much for joining us, welcome to WNYC.

Marie Yovanovitch: It's a pleasure being on.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get to the mugs and bracelets and the Boris Johnson walking in the streets of Kyiv with President Zelenskyy yesterday and Russia's apparent new strategy to decimate the Eastern part of the country in order to own it. First I've read that you place part of the blame for Putin's invasion of Ukraine on Donald Trump even though he is not president right now. Do I have that right?

Marie Yovanovitch: I think that when Donald Trump was president, he certainly indicated a lack of respect for Ukraine, shall we say, in that perfect phone call with president Zelenskyy where he made it clear that he was holding up our military assistance the javelins that now everybody knows about. He was holding up that military assistance for a foreign leader to do him a favor though.

That undermining of our foreign policy of our national security interests, once it was made public with the release of the transcript really was I think quite damaging. I think it sent a signal to authoritarian leaders around the world, certainly including Putin as well to bad actors, private actors, both in the US and abroad that they could cut deals with the former administration. We've seen-- go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: No, no, you go finish that. We've seen what?

Marie Yovanovitch: We've seen Vladimir Putin where he has over the years invaded Georgia and taken parts of Georgia. In 2014 he did the same in Ukraine, in 2019 he did the same with the Sea of Azov, which is that small little sea right above the Black Sea that is totally encircled by Russia and Ukraine and that was when Donald Trump was president.

Donald Trump didn't even want to issue a statement saying that the seizure of three Ukrainian vessels by the Russian Navy in international waters was something to be condemned. I think we've seen a pattern of what Russia has done, but we've also seen a pattern of how Donald Trump has allowed Putin to get away with it.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned that infamous phone call in which Zelenskyy is asking Trump for weapons to defend against potential further Russian incursions after they seized Crimea in 2014 and Trump says, "Do me a favor though," as you remembered and that favor was going to be to announce a fake investigation of the Biden family.

Today Volodymyr Zelenskyy is a hero to much of the world, but you tell a story in the book of how during that phone call Zelenskyy piled on you and called you a bad ambassador. How close did Zelenskyy come in your opinion to announcing the fake investigation of the Bidens and what would you say his relationship with Donald Trump was resisting or colluding or whatever words you would use?

Marie Yovanovitch: The first item, how he characterized me. I had a perfectly normal relationship with President Zelenskyy when I was in Ukraine, at that time he was about to become a candidate for president and then became a candidate for president. I left before he became president. We met a number of times and we had a very constructive relationship. I think what you saw or what we saw in the transcript was a new and untested President Zelenskyy talking to his most important partner, the United State aaand Donald Trump.

His mission was to get those javelins signed off by the president, even though Congress had already approved the transfer of those javelins. I think he was playing along with Donald Trump, as we've seen other world leaders do, as we've seen other people in the United States do. I don't take these things personally, I don't think they're meant personally and I think we need to remember that.

In terms of Zelenskyy, what was his relationship with Donald Trump? I think that was maybe the second or the third phone call and he hadn't yet met Donald Trump, but he knew it was important to get a good working relationship with the single most important international partner. He was trying to figure out how to do that, but he left the question open about the investigation,s and then ultimately he did not pursue that path, thank goodness.

Brian Lehrer: Are you surprised at all at the ways Zelenskyy has risk to the occasion during this war based on your earlier contacts with him when he was a new president?

Marie Yovanovitch: Zelenskyy even when he was candidate, he was a very impressive guy. He's a self-made millionaire through his talent and his hard work. He not only had these comedy troops that toured it all over the Russian-speaking world, including in Russia he was very popular there. He had a great TV series Servant of the People and he was really super impressive he built this a multimillion-dollar media empire, he had a production company. All through his own hard work and sweat and talent and he was really proud of that.

He wanted people to know that. Would I have predicted that life would imitate art and that he became president? No. Would I have predicted that he would become the Winston Churchill of our time, inspiring not only the Ukrainian people, but the world? His courage, his communication skills are pretty phenomenal, and I think he is doing an outstanding job of uniting the Ukrainian people and uniting the world against the evil that we are seeing with this Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Brian Lehrer: The Winston Churchill of our time, those are pretty big words.

Marie Yovanovitch: I think they're appropriate.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take phone calls for former ambassador to Ukraine among many other things that she's done, Marie Yovanovitch, who is also a senior fellow at The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a Non-resident Fellow at Georgetown University. 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Maybe you've been hearing ambassador Yovanovitch elsewhere or seeing her elsewhere on her book tour, her book called Lessons from the Edge. You can talk about anything from the Trump impeachment and her relationship to that, but certainly, we can talk about the situation in Ukraine and in Russia. Now this former ambassador who apparently sports an F U Putin bracelet, 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. You mentioned Winston Churchill, I assume it's segueing to the current leader of the UK. I assume you saw

Boris Johnson walking in the street, in Ukraine in Kyiv with the landscape over the weekend, here's a clip of Boris Johnson from that moment.

Boris Johnson: Together with friends and partners. We, the UK, and others supply the equipment, the technology, the know-how, the intelligence so that Ukraine will never be invaded again.

Brian Lehrer: A promise for the future. Before we talk about Boris Johnson ambassador, was that a kind of victory lap for Zelenskyy maybe and the West after Russia withdrew from around the capital city of Kyiv, even though we saw the horrors of the kinds of murders that they left behind.

Marie Yovanovitch: Well, I am an optimist, but I think it's too early to talk about victory. The Ukrainian military with its prowess and with Western training and equipment, was able to battle back Russian forces and caused them to withdraw to Russia and to Belarus but what they're doing there is they're regrouping, they're rearming and they're repositioning.

They're repositioning in that part of eastern Ukraine known as the Donbas, part of which is already occupied by Russia. What our military experts are saying, and what our national security experts are saying is that the Ukraine needs to brace for a very, very large land battle in that part of Ukraine and it is going to be bloody and it is going to be, I think, really, really difficult.

I think you've probably already heard or your listeners have heard, that the Russians have named a new military commander, who is known as the Butcher of Syria, for his actions in Syria. I think that when we think about Butcher and Mariupol', I fear that perhaps this general will bring on to Ukrainians more of the same. It is absolutely imperative that the US keep on supplying, and our allies keep on supplying Ukraine since they can push the Russians back.

Brian Lehrer: I want to ask you more about what may be coming in the East but just before we get off Zelenskyy and Boris Johnson, one of those two men wants to be part of the EU. The others made history by leaving the EU and Brexit, oh, with social media help from Russia. In fact, last month, Boris Johnson gave a speech in the UK widely criticized, in which he compared the Ukrainians desire to identify with Europe, to his desire to not listen.

Boris Johnson: I know that it's the instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom every time. I can give you a couple of famous recent examples. When the British people voted for Brexit in such large numbers, I don't believe it was they were remotely hostile to foreigners. It's because they wanted to be free.

Brian Lehrer: Ambassador Yovanovitch, do you want to pile on and say anything about that comparison?

Marie Yovanovitch: I hadn't heard that before and, of course, I don't know the context around those words, but I would say that, I think that part of the reason Ukrainians want to join the EU is for the freedom and the greater opportunity that joining one of the largest economic associations would bring to Ukraine, and Ukrainians and this has been something Ukrainians have wanted for a number of years and every year that Putin sort of sponsors malign activities in Ukraine, the number of people in Ukraine who want to join, the EU goes up.

I think the last figure I saw was something like over 90%. This is an all of country desire, and I think we saw the EU leadership in Ukraine a couple of days ago in Kyiv, actually, a couple of days ago sort of presenting President Zelenskyy with the application form and indicating I think that it could be fast tracked. We'll have to see how fast fast track is, but I think I think that's a good sign overall.

Brian Lehrer: What's the difference in terms of what it would mean for Ukraine, or what the admission requirements are for Ukraine to join the EU as compared with joining NATO?

Marie Yovanovitch: Well, the EU is more of an economic association and certainly, that is I think what the Ukrainians are most interested in. It's also become more recently, over the years a political association as well. In theory, at least there's a united foreign policy, although that's more in theory really than in practice. NATO is a defensive pact. It's a military alliance based on common values. It's a defense pact, and so it's a very different kind of an organization, even though the member countries of the EU and NATO often overlap.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe one of these days soon, we're going to see the next meeting between Zelenskyy and Boris Johnson and Zelenskyy will be saying, "I'm part of the EU and you're not." Sarah in Glen Cove, you're on WNYC with Marie Yovanovitch. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: Oh, hello. Oh, it is such an honor to speak with you. Thank you for standing for everything that's good, you and President Zelenskyy. I have family in the Ukraine, in both Mariupol' and Kyiv. Just every push to push for us to stand up to this bully, how can I tell my little children, my young boys that it doesn't pay to be a bully when world events show the opposite?

We have to do everything we can. Thanks [inaudible 00:16:35] and for everything you're doing. I just wanted to say that you are one of my heroes and I'm forcing my 12-year-old to read your book because it's not important. Yes, and he admires you too so thank you for everything you're doing.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah is there anything from the book that you want to single out? Has your 12-year-old related anything to you that's worth repeating?

Sarah: Just that democracy is messy, that diplomacy is difficult, and that truth, you don't always get rewarded for speaking truth, and these lessons, fighting untruth and sticking to that message of truth and working hard and, untangling truth from fiction, and good from evil, and just how messy it is. I think that's a good-- the good guys don't always win in the short term, but you do in the long term.

There was important lessons and just looking globally, looking at all these things, I'm learning about our own concerns just for 2024 now, and for the coming elections and just all of these important lessons, and this fear that I have about our democracy and how important it is to teach children to be critical thinkers and to fight that good fight and to [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Now that's wonderful, Sarah, that is really, really, really wonderful. I can only imagine the excellent conversations you're having around the dinner family, at the dinner table with your kid, and your family. Thank you much, and Ambassador Yovanovitch, what would you like to say to your biggest fan in Glen Cove Long Island there.

Marie Yovanovitch: Sarah, I just want to say thank you for the kind words, and you really honor me with everything you've said, and that you're-- I hope your child is resent it, but that you're asking your child to read the book because I really do hope that people take some of my experiences and maybe apply it to themselves or those around them because as you say, our democracy is so precious and it really, democracy as we've discovered is fragile. It really takes each one of us doing our part to tend it, to defend it if it is to endure. I can see that you're doing your part. Thank you much.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, it could be that our first caller of the week winds up being our caller of the week after that soliloquy from Sarah. We have more calls for Marie Yovanovitch right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian there on WNYC with

the former US ambassador to Ukraine among other positions that she's had in the government, in the foreign service, Marie Yovanovitch. If you're just joining us, maybe you remember the role that she played in the Trump impeachment hearings when he apparently tried to bribe or blackmail take your pick, President Zelenskyy regarding defensive weapons to Ukraine, if Zelenskyy would launch a fake investigation of Joe Biden. That investigation never happened, but Marie Yovanovitch got fired by Trump. She has written a book called Lessons From The Edge, and Beth on the lower east side. You're on WNYC. Hi Beth.

Beth: Hi Brian. Thank you for taking my call and Madam ambassador, I have to also just reiterate the prior caller. It's such an honor to speak with you and your work. I've just so admired it. My question is this. It seems like now with Russia, apparently starting to refocus its energies to the Eastern part of the country, it seems at least my understanding is that in the Donbas and the Crimea regions, that there's more pro-Russian sentiment. How strong will the resistance be against Russian going further into those region from your sense?

Marie Yovanovitch: Thanks for the kinds of words, Beth, and thanks for the question as well. It is true that in the East and in the South as well, there are more Russian speakers, perhaps more Russian heritage but that doesn't mean that they aren't Ukrainian Patriots. Even if there was some sympathy towards Russia before, even after the taking of Crimea, the illegal annexation in 2014, and the attacks in the Donbas in 2014, 2015, even if there was still some sympathy there, I think I'm pretty positive that right now, there is none because the Russians are invading the country, they are reigning terror on civilians.

They're killing children, they're destroying homes and hospitals, daycare centers, and I just don't think there's any sympathy left for Russia in any part of Ukraine. It's the irony that Putin's actions have caused the exact opposite of what he wanted. If what he wanted was to bring Ukraine into the fold of the Russian empire, what he is getting is the greatest resistance he has ever encountered, and that will continue.

If he wanted to weaken NATO, and weaken the West, he has solidified the NATO Alliance as well as Western unity. The list goes on that this was a huge miscalculation, I think for Putin and the Ukrainian people are going to fight back and they'll continue to fight back.

Brian Lehrer: You think even in the Donbas region, which had Russian separatists, that was the big story from that region as far as the West was concerned before the invasion.

Marie Yovanovitch: I know that we often call them Russian separatists or separatists, but actually what it was, was Russian-controlled Russian proxies in Eastern Ukraine. There wasn't an indigenous spontaneous desire to leave Ukraine in the East. The Russian military came in, they sent in mercenaries, they hired locals, that they controlled and that they continued to control. Russian citizens were the heads of the two little statelets that Russia created in the Donbas, the LNR and the DNR. There was nothing spontaneous about it. It was all Russian controlled and continues to be.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe now is the appropriate time to ask you about those mugs and bracelets that say F you Putin with the F word spelled out. I still have a hard time connecting that thing with the dignified diplomat that I saw in the impeachment hearings that Marie Yovanovitch or the dignified ex-diplomat who's been speaking to us this morning. How did you come to get those things made?

Marie Yovanovitch: It was actually a gift to me by one of the cabinet members in the Ukrainian government back when I first arrived. It's shocking and funny all at the same time. One of my visitors noticed it. It's very discreet, very small teeny little letters, but one of my visitors noticed it, and since visitors from Washington, when they came to Ukraine, as they come to Poland, Ukraine now, they're all about showing support for Ukraine and showing resistance to Russia's malign activities, the war that Russia was continuing to perpetrate, the re-invasion that Russia is perpetrating now.

I gave it away and so then I had to get another one and then I started getting more, and it was subtle and it was private and it was a shocker, but it made a point. It was only after I retired from the foreign service, that I made it a little bit more public. I like to think of it, not that I'm comparing myself to the great Madeline Albright, but she had that great collection of pins, and she communicated through those pins to world dictators and others. She communicated the things that maybe she couldn't say verbally, and so I like to think that maybe I'm in that same tradition.

Brian Lehrer: On communicating that message in any way, we had Gideon Rose from Foreign Affairs Magazine and the Council of Foreign Relations on the show last week and he said, I'm paraphrasing, but the gist was the way to get Putin to stop the murderous war in Ukraine is not to drag his reputation through the mud publicly at every turn, but to give him a way to withdraw with some kind of face saving. Otherwise, he'll continue the missile attacks on children's theaters and train stations and everything else. Does Gideon Rose have a point?

Marie Yovanovitch: I think that we have been trying to do that, before the war, you'll recall that there were no sanctions levied against Russia. It was just, "If you do this, we are very serious about the measures that will be imposed." As you recall back in January, there were three separate meetings with the Russians that we conducted, trying to persuade them that this is not the right path. Russia had sent us those two treaties, one to NATO, one to the United States back in December.

In January, we responded in writing and it was a serious and a substantive response to the concerns that Russia laid out. Probably wasn't everything that Russia wanted, but that's the nature of negotiations, whether it's in business or diplomacy, you sit down and you work these things out. Russia wasn't interested. Russia thought that they were going to just match into Kyiv, they would be greeted as victors and as liberators and it would all be fine, and that they didn't need to [unintelligible 00:28:04] as we sometimes call it because they could have it all.

They found out that that is not the case. As you know, negotiations do continue. Zelenskyy has said publicly, it's harder, as they're finding out about these atrocities that have been committed. He has to think about the future of Ukraine. He has to think about the whole country, and so yes, they are going to continue to negotiate with the Russians, but I think what we're seeing, and Zelenskyy has put a lot on the table.

He has said that non-NATO status, that they would be a neutral country, et cetera. He's put a lot on the table for the Russians to chew over, things that they have said that they want. Yet what we're seeing is continued attacks from Russia, and it's my view and I think the view of many analysts that Russia wants to change the facts on the ground.

The military campaign has not been going very well for Russia so far. They want to change that, and they want to force concessions, greater concessions from Ukraine. This thing about providing a way out for Putin and everything, I think a lot of great minds are thinking about that, but Putin isn't ready. Timing in diplomacy is the same as timing in life. It's really important and the Russians are just not ready to negotiate seriously yet.

Brian Lehrer: Don and in Hell's Kitchen, you're on WNYC with Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. Hi, Don.

Don: Hi, good morning. I wanted to ask the ambassador.

Brian Lehrer: Ambassador, can you hear the caller?

Don: Can you hear me okay?

Marie Yovanovitch: Yes. Hi Don.

Don: Hi, good morning. It may seem like ancient history now, but with Rex Tillerson having been the

first Secretary of State, and I'm guessing that you overlapped with him in his service.

Brian Lehrer: That is Donald Trump's first Secretary of State, yes, go ahead.

Don: Yes. I've wondered if you had any insight into his being selected for that position but also, the relationship that Tillerson and Putin had because it seemed as if Trump had no real experience with Tillerson and it seemed as if just from a regular media consumer, you're in the US that it was almost as if to ingratiate himself to Putin by choosing someone that he knew Putin liked, even though that relationship between Trump and Tillerson devolved rather spectacularly. Do you have any insight into that whole trajectory and how the Russia connection with Trump might have had an influence there?

Marie Yovanovitch: Unfortunately, I really don't but what I would say is that while I do have a lot of criticism for Secretary Tillerson in terms of how he dealt with the Department of State. I think he really undermined the institution and weakened it, but I think on policy on European policy, on Russia policy, Ukraine policy, I thought he was very good. I don't know what his prior dealings with Putin were but certainly, when he was Secretary of State, he upheld the official policy and he was strong in his support for Ukraine.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you, and Don, thank you for your call. Let me ask you about Trump's later Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who was your boss when you were posted to Ukraine and he famously did not defend you when Trump was publicly smearing you. You write about this in the book. Shockingly, maybe I shouldn't be shot but shockingly, to my ears, Pompeo defended Putin recently just as the war was beginning, maybe six weeks ago praising Putin like this.

Mike Pompeo: He's a very talented statesman. He has lots of gifts. He was a KGB agent, for goodness sakes. He knows how to use power. We should respect that.

Brian Lehrer: Ambassador, did that shock you or not so much?

Marie Yovanovitch: It did shock me. It shocked me. I think that's about all I can say.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Marie Yovanovitch: At a time when Putin, I think he said that right prior to the invasion but Russian forces [crosstalk] had circled Ukraine on three sides. It was clear what was coming next and then the invasion did start. It is never right to give succor to authoritarian leaders. Never.

Brian Lehrer: What are the implications, in your opinion, considering this war if Trump or Pompeo or someone from that camp gets elected president in 2024?

Marie Yovanovitch: I am an optimist and so I hope that we are going to have a leader in the White House who believes in alliances, understands the threat that state totalitarian regimes pose, not just to Ukraine but to the United States and the free world, and understand the importance of upholding the international rules-based system that was established after World War II and has kept us more secure, more prosperous, and more free ever since World War II.

Brian Lehrer: To that point, listener on Twitter writes, does the Ambassador believe there is any silver lining for the Western world and democracy generally in this horrible conflict?

Marie Yovanovitch: I think the silver lining is that while there have been wake-up calls over the last decade or so, I think now the alarm is truly being rang. I think world leaders are hearing it, and the challenge is going to be focusing on not just the immediate and the next couple of months, but how do we deal with the issues and the challenges and the problems of the 21st century? How do we adjust our institutions and our norms? How do we stay united and how do we keep the focus on ensuring that we are again more free, more prosperous, and more secure.

Brian Lehrer: Patti in Princeton Junction, you're on WNYC with Marie Yovanovitch. Hi, Patti.

Patti: Hi, Brian, thanks for taking my call. Madam Ambassador, what kind of dirt Putin might have on Trump? I believe Brian used the phrase bribe or blackmail sometime earlier. I'm wondering what sort or does Trump only think that Putin might have something on him?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Patti. I was saying bribe or blackmail with respect to what Trump was trying to do to Zelensky but this was a source of a lot of speculation during the Russia investigation. Ambassador as you know, do you think Putin has anything on Donald Trump?

Marie Yovanovitch: I'm not in a position to know I'm afraid. Obviously, I've seen the speculation but again, I'm not in a position to know.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Owen in Glen Cove, same town on Long Island as that wonderful first caller was from. Owen, you're on WNYC with Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. Hi.

Owen: Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. I had two questions, or maybe points. My first one was, do you think there was a strategic reason for Russia to not take out Zelensky? I'm skeptical and one of the greatest military powers on earth with all the technology, was there a reason they kept him alive? I remember in the early days, he was saying, I might not be here in a couple of days and the way they were able to level other cities, it seems like they kept Kyiv intact and he's walking the streets now.

I'm surprised with all the satellites and everything, they couldn't have taken him out. Thank God, they didn't, but I'm just curious if you think there was a strategic reason that they didn't. My second question or point is, do you think the United States will look back in shame that we didn't do more thinking about the way that Jews were turned away from New York Harbor in World War II because the United States didn't want to get involved and we were scared and wanted to be isolationist?

Do you think when all the dust settles and the atrocities have been revealed that we will be ashamed that we didn't do more to get involved militarily because at the end of the day, the sanctions they talk a big game, but people are still being slaughtered every single day and it's really sad, and we very much still seem to have an isolationist mentality?

Brian Lehrer: Owen, thank you. Ambassador, we have one minute left or less thought to the caller.

Marie Yovanovitch: Okay. I think on the issue of assassinating Zelensky, my understanding is that they did send him assassination teams but they were eliminated by the Ukrainians. I think it's another example of Russian incompetence. My own personal guess is the reason they haven't carpet bombed Kyiv is that I think they are still hoping to that Kyiv will be the capital of the Ukrainian province of Russia, so they want to keep it intact. There are some historical buildings that they want to keep intact.

On the second question, I think the Biden administration is navigating a very, very narrow path of providing Ukraine as much as possible. It's not just sanctions, it's billions of dollars of weapons and things that were inconceivable five weeks ago, we are giving to them now and we're looking at more and we need to keep on doing that. Like you, I am horrified by the deaths that we are seeing and I think we are going to look back at pre-February 24th and post-February 24th. It will be up to us to manage that challenge of how we create a better world.

Brian Lehrer: Former ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, now a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a non-resident fellow at Georgetown University, and the author of her new memoir which is called Lessons From The Edge. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us and your experience. We really, really appreciate it.

Marie Yovanovitch: Oh, thank you, Brian.

 

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