[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It looks like the latest way that Mayor de Blasio and Governor Cuomo are competing with each other and trying to one-up each other is good news for vaccine access. First, here's the governor yesterday.

Governor Cuomo: Everybody is eligible. There are no excuses now not to get the vaccine. Today, we're taking even an additional step where for people who are over 60 years old of age, you don't even need an appointment to get a vaccine. You can just walk in to any of the mass vaccination sites across the state, and they will give you the vaccine.

Brian Lehrer: That was the governor two days ago, to be precise. Just breaking this morning, I'm told just a few minutes ago, Mayor de Blasio announced that the same standard will apply to city-run vaccination sites. You'll be able to just walk in without an appointment. If you're 16 or over, anyone can walk in to a city-run vaccination site now and stand in line, I guess, if there is a line and get a vaccine, no appointment needed.

I know it can be confusing. What's a city-run site? What's a state-run site? We'll clarify some of that. There is still a challenge, according to public health officials, which is still getting shots to people who aren't seeking them out for whatever reason. It's not just vaccine hesitancy, maybe they're homebound and don't know where to look or didn't have a computer to know where to look for an appointment when you need an appointment, or maybe even know where the walk-up sites are now.

Back with me now is Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media, a network of Black and Brown community news outlets. Some of you know she's been coming on every week this month to talk about vaccine access for the hard-to-reach.

With her today is Elena Tate, volunteer for Mitra's news organization Epicenter-NYC. For those of you who recognize Mitra's name, yes, that's because she's been coming on every week for a while to try to match vaccines and hard-to-reach people. Mitra, welcome back and Elena, welcome to WNYC.

Mitra Kalita: Thanks, Brian.

Elena Tate: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, you want to react to this breaking news from the mayor this morning?

Mitra Kalita: Yes, I think it's great news. I do think your framing of it is spot on of the mayor and the governor keep trying to outdo each other. Again, I want to make sure we celebrate this as good news, they're trying to make it easier. The challenge is, in the eyes of the person who needs the vaccine, what the heck's the difference between a state site and a city site? Is really secondary to their desire, which is just to get the vaccine.

Just two initial reactions are, we really need to make it clear which sites we're talking about. The second is this hope I have with every change they make to who's eligible for vaccines. I always hear about it first on Twitter, then I'll search for it on Google News, I'll hopefully catch it on the local news and then comes my Notify NYC alert.

I think we're still delivering the news somewhat backwards to the people who need it most. They are not on Twitter, and we have to solve, forgetting vaccine ubiquity, the fact that you could just walk in, we really need to solve for that pretty urgently.

Brian Lehrer: Now people don't have to know which sites are city-run sites or state-run sites anymore in New York because they're both going to be available for walk-ups with no appointments. Elena, was that you trying to get in there?

Elena Tate: Yes, sorry. There are also a plethora of pharmacies which are not either, and we've seen with our people that we've booked, they have turned people away at a greater rate than the city or state sites. There's still a lot to be done as far as getting the word out in lots of languages to lots of hard-to-reach people who don't have internet and just disseminating information from the CDC and the city is still not reaching a lot of people who need it who are hard hit by the virus.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you made that point about pharmacies because I was just going to ask, I know that my own vaccine, which I got at a pharmacy, was technically through a federal program. The pharmacy was not a city site or a state site. To be perfectly clear, you're clarifying, you may not walk up to your local pharmacy without an appointment still, correct?

Elena Tate: Yes, and you also may need different documentation at a pharmacy, that's your local corner pharmacy where you get all your prescription, they still may not see you, whereas a city site would see you with the same documentation.

Brian Lehrer: Would you say, Elena, that even under this announcement from the mayor, that the two major groups, vaccine hesitancy aside, people who would be open to getting the vaccine or who want to get the vaccine, the two major groups that are hardest-to-reach today are homebound seniors and undocumented workers?

Elena Tate: Yes, and this will not apply to the homebound at all because they can't walk in anywhere, they're in their homes. The latest numbers on that are- well, for the over 85 age range, it's only 41% fully vaccinated in New York City. We still have a long way to go in reaching the most vulnerable.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, I wonder how much you think the pause in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which is the one that the city was using to go around with to homebound elderly and other homebound people in their homes. That pause has made that more difficult, not impossible, because I gather they're trying to use the Moderna shot but that's more complicated.

You have to go there twice, and it takes more refrigeration, but I wonder if it has you rooting for an outcome today when this federal panel is apparently going to decide the fate of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine and whether to put it back into use?

Mitra Kalita: I think that's right and we still do have folks who asked Epicenter for help, who have, in the middle of the pause, said, "We're willing to wait for J&J as soon as it's unpaused." I do think there's a public sentiment. Again, this is not scientific, this is just from the folks who are reaching out to us for the vaccine saying, "We'd prefer just to be one and done. We'll wait to see what the CDC says."

That's one group. The second group, you're exactly right on the homebound population, they've converted to Moderna, which requires two visits. For some of this population, that's just fine, they've been home for the entire pandemic anyway. It's really just a matter of getting the shots to them that has been logistically impossible on the side of the government versus the individual who's waiting.

I do think, again, logistically speaking, J&J for that population would make it so much easier, and based on what we've heard, they're outside of the group that has been affected by the blood clots, which is women between the age of 18 and 48, I believe.

Brian Lehrer: Beth in Brooklyn. By the way, Mitra, you've got people well-trained in this audience now that you've been coming on for a few weeks in a row. I didn't even have to give out the phone number. It looks like they know you're here and all our lines are full.

Mitra Kalita: Oh, my God.

Brian Lehrer: Beth in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Beth: Hello, good morning. Thank you all so much for taking my call. I really appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: What've you got?

Beth: Sorry, I'm new to this, so thanks for your patience. [laughs] I run an organization called Genspace. It's a community science lab in Sunset Park, which has been one of the hard-to-reach neighborhoods and we just are getting ready to get started on a COVID Vaccine Education Initiative where we'll be out in the community.

We're going to be setting up tables in the parks and the playgrounds and local community centers to try to, again, help folks have access to people to ask their questions to. I think the point that Mitra made earlier about, the news is breaking on Twitter, but how do we really make sure that people have access to information that's accurate, up-to-date, and accessible?

That's really the angle that we're trying to take, is to be in the community with people where they are to make sure that they have access to the technology, the services that they need to get these appointments. I guess now that the walk-ups are available, just, again, to demystify what are the processes available? What do people need to know about side effects? Just trying to, again, be of service to the community.

Brian Lehrer: Beth, thank you very much. How can people get in touch?

Beth: Please check us out at genspace.org. We're also on social media at Genspace NYC.

Brian Lehrer: Gen, G-E-N, right? Genspace.org.

Beth: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. By the way, I want to clarify one thing that I think I probably gave a misimpression of when talking about these new state and city no appointment needed vaccine announcements. Mitra, they are different. The mayor announced today anybody, 16 years old or older, can now walk up to a city-run vaccination site without an appointment. For the state, that clip of the governor that we played, you have to be 60, 6-oh, years old and you can walk up.

Mitra Kalita: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: If you're under 60, you can't just walk up to the jab center or other state-run sites. For the city, you can, right?

Mitra Kalita: I believe that's correct. Then last week, it was 50 on one and 60 on the other, which is why you might be sensing a little bit of frustration in my voice over could they just coordinate and get on the same page about what the qualification is? Because they all, within days, they're going to end up in the same place. It's during this period of confusion that we end up getting the most questions of, "What's a city site and what's a state site?"

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

[music]

[advertisement]

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue to match vaccines and arms with Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media, a network of Black and Brown community news outlets. She's also CEO and publisher of Epicenter-NYC with Elena Tate, a volunteer for Epicenter-NYC, which has been doing their amazing work, volunteering to help people find vaccination appointments and to document the rapidly changing story of availability, outreach, and other foreseeable and unforeseeable challenges.

Again, the breaking news this morning, Mayor de Blasio just announced all city-run sites giving vaccines are now going to become walk-up sites, you don't need an appointment. You can just go if you're eligible at all, which means 16 years of age or older. At the state-run sites, you can walk up if you're 60, 6-oh, years and older as of this week. Mila in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Mila, thank you for calling in.

Mila: Thank you, Brian. I listen to your show every day. I love you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Mila: Thank you so much. Thank you for taking my call. My question is I received a text yesterday and it said that I can get the vaccination, but you have to fill out application online and you have to present the information about your insurance. I don't trust anybody. I don't fill out any medical conditions online. How does that work? Why are they asking about the insurance?

Brian Lehrer: Elena, do you want to take this?

Elena Tate: Yes. This is a good point as far as what we've seen with different pharmacies, having different rules and turning people away. We did see a pharmacy that turned people away for not having a printed-out form that they were supposed to have brought with them. They didn't have any available for them there to fill out. Whereas at a state site you can just do it there and also with insurance. I would say--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. What would you say?

Elena Tate: I would just make sure you understand the requirements for the specific site that you're going to. If you need to call the site in advance you should do that to make sure you won't get there and be turned away.

Brian Lehrer: Beyond that, Mila doesn't want to seem to give out her insurance information and her understanding is, as I think, mine is, that everybody is eligible for a vaccine based on status-

Elena Tate: They don't need an insurance.

Brian Lehrer: -which now in New York City is everybody. Exactly, doesn't need an insurance. [crosstalk] They asked me for my insurance card, why are they asking everybody?

Elena Tate: I would choose a city-run site because they will not even make you show your insurance card, whereas the pharmacy will make the photocopy. Depending on the place, they may be much more strict.

Mitra Kalita: Brian, for whether it's worth, CVS has--

Brian Lehrer: Mila-- Go ahead, Mitra.

Mitra Kalita: We've been in touch with CVS and Walgreens at the corporate level. I'm looking at the statement that CVS sent me just a few weeks ago. "Uninsured patients are not required to provide proof of residency or insurance in order to receive a vaccine from us." That's the word directly from CVS. Walgreens has echoed that.

Now they do say that some of their registration systems ask for the information, you could put not applicable or leave that blank. Hopefully, the system won't glitch on you. Of course, as Elena said, the state and city sites should not be asking for that as well.

Brian Lehrer: Mila, I think that's the best advice. You can stick to your guns and say, "I don't want to provide my insurance information and I don't have to provide my insurance information," if I'm understanding the two of you correctly, but to make it as simple as possible, for the moment, stay away from the pharmacy.

When it comes to vaccine hesitancy, Elena, can you tell us a few stories of what you've been hearing? I think you told our producer that you talked to one woman who you made an appointment for but she called you crying, saying she didn't know whether she could go through with it. Do you want to tell that story?

Elena Tate: Yes, we became very close through this because I talked to her probably, I don't know, 10 times before she would even book an appointment. I had her number in my phone on speed dial and she was always calling me too.

She was going back and forth about which brand she trusted. First, she didn't trust any of them. Then she was kind of-- As a friend of hers got Moderna, then she wanted Moderna, but then she started thinking, "Oh, Johnson & Johnson is just one shot," because she was saying that if she had side effects, she wouldn't go back for the second shot.

She said she went to the dentist once and it hurt so bad. They said, "Come back next week," and she never went back to the dentist. She was concerned about the side effects. We got her Johnson & Johnson appointment. It was actually through a popup that we had helped to organize. Yes, she went there. She was actually blind too, so it was hard for her to get there.

Then when she was there, she got very nervous and was calling me saying she was just going to run away and not do it, but then she did it. Then it was very sad because a few weeks after she got vaccinated, a neighbor of hers in the home for the blind was hospitalized with the virus and she was just saying she had wished she had been vaccinated that day too.

Brian Lehrer: Is that emblematic of a pattern of the kind of hesitancy that you're seeing?

Elena Tate: Yes. We see a lot of people who, for whatever reason, they trust their friends more than they would trust Dr. Fauci on TV or a medical expert. We see circles of influence. As one person from a sushi restaurant gets vaccinated, then we see 10 people from the same restaurant ask us to help them get acclimated too.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, you and I last week were going to talk about vaccine shopping, meaning for one brand of vaccine over another, but then the Johnson & Johnson pause news broke just as you were going to come on and we never got to vaccine shopping. What we hear from Dr. Fauci and everybody is take the shot you're offered. Do you have a different position?

Mitra Kalita: My opinion on this is evolving to meet people where they are. This is something that the volunteers have really almost convinced me of on two things and Elena herself has been among them. She should take credit for this, but for many people, it's hard to convince them. If they'll say, "Look, I think Pfizer is better for my ethnic community," or, "My friend got Pfizer and said it was easier." It's not that I'm pushing one over the other at all, I want to be clear on that. What I think we could all be doing a better job of is being clear of what's offered at certain sites. I'm at a stage where if it's a pharmacy, I'll tell you, "This pharmacy is offering Moderna. The city sites are offering--" Most of them are Pfizer.

I just think that we need to be explicit in what's being offered. If people say, "Look, I would prefer Pfizer because my cousin got that, and I trust my cousin," I think we have to meet them where they are. We're just in that place right now.

The other thing is that my thinking on this has evolved because it's gotten so much easier to get a vaccine appointment. We are blessed. We are blessed in New York City, we are blessed in the United States that we have access to vaccines and supply is no longer an issue. Most of our volunteers are telling us, "Look, we can pretty much book anyone at any time anywhere." Let's just get them in there.

The other thing that I've been converted on a little bit is this idea of the second dose, and how much we need to work with people around getting their second dose. After the J&J pause, my thinking on this, since we last talked, has only evolved because scheduling was such a reason that people were going to J&J. That if I can remove the obstacle of scheduling from your life and just say, "Listen, if it's a day or two on one side or the other, for Pfizer or Moderna, hopefully on the other just because there's a longer window on the other end, we'll work with you to get there." I've definitely evolved on that, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: That has to be the last word for today because we have a guy named de Blasio standing by who's scheduled for next. Mitra, just remind people how to get in touch with Epicenter-NYC if you can still help them get a vaccine or access to a vaccine somehow.

Mitra Kalita: We can. Our website and our intake form is on there. It's epicenter-nyc.com. We're also happy to take your phone calls at 917-818-2690. 917-818-2690, epicenter-nyc.com, and we really are able to pretty much schedule anyone anytime at their desired location.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much Mitra Kalita from Epicenter-NYC and URL Media and volunteering with Epicenter-NYC and, obviously, doing great work based on the information she was able to give today, Elena Tate. Thank you both very much for coming on.

Mitra Kalita: Thank you, Brian.

Elena Tate: Thank you, Brian.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.