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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Most people believe that one path to moral justice in policing is to have a more diverse police force, but getting a job on one of Long Island's highly paid police forces has been more than three times tougher for Black would be officers than for white applicants, and twice as tough for Hispanic jobseekers in recruitment by the Nassau and Suffolk County departments. That's according to a new Newsday investigation called Barriers To Badges. With me now is Jim Baumbach, investigative reporter for Newsday and author of the report. Hi Jim, welcome to WNYC.

Jim Baumbach: Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Why did you decide to look into the racial makeup of the Long Island police departments? What were you looking for?

Jim Baumbach: Basically, it started last June, we're almost at the year mark. It obviously was in the wake of the George Floyd murder. It started with a simple question. It was, how diverse are the Nassau and Suffolk Police departments? Then the answer came back very quickly that it's not very diverse. That both of them were about 85%, 86% white. Then it became, why is it not diverse? What's happening?

When we look back, they've been on their federal consent decrees for some 40 years to basically diversify their police forces, and the story has been done over those 40 years many times where commissioners and County executives have stressed the importance of getting it done, but it just hadn't happened. They mentioned, they're looking to recruit, recruitment's a big thing, but when we look through it, you see, they're getting a diverse applicant pool, why is it not turning into a diverse police force at the end of it? Why are the recruits not diverse? That basically was the impetus to say, let's look into this process of how do you become a police officer.

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about the tests. By way of background, I think these are stats from your article. Close to 20,000 people apply to be on these police forces every year, and only a couple of hundred are accepted. The acceptance rates for anybody is low, but you found the tests to be particular barriers to applicants of color. Why is that?

Jim Baumbach: Yes, and you hit on a good point that the phrase that a lot of the police officers and the [unintelligible 00:02:40] use is that saying, getting this job is like hitting the lottery, the odds are not good for you. That being said, the odds, if you're white, are better than the odds if you're a minority, particularly if you're Black. The odds that you mentioned at the top, and it happens at every single step of the way.

It starts with a written test, and then from there, it goes to a physical fitness test, and then a background investigation, a psychological evaluation, and a medical evaluation, and at every single step of the way, what we found in the numbers over the last two hiring cycles is that the pool of white representation gets bigger, and the pool of the minority representation gets lower.

Brian Lehrer: Being on the radio and parenting at the same time, it's an increasingly common form of multitasking during the COVID pandemic era. [chuckles] You are forgiven for whoever just got on the phone there with you, as my guest is Jim Baumbach, an investigative reporter for Newsday. We're discussing his investigative report on the racial disparity in hiring for Nassau and Suffolk County Police departments. Here's a clip, you talk to Nassau Police Commissioner, Patrick Ryder, about why he thinks fewer Black people pass the entrance exam to become cops on his force, and here's a little bit of what he said.

Patrick Ryder: Look, a lot of these kids come from broken homes. These kids struggle in these communities because they don't have both parents around. They don't have a family history of law enforcement. They're at a disadvantage starting off, and we have to recognize it. It's true. I can't fix the family home, but I can fix the kid. I can help him get better and work with him to make sure we don't lose that kid and get them into the job. There's some great kids out there that we'd love to have as part of this department. I think the process we have is good. I think giving kids a little advantage in some of the minority communities is important too. They just don't have it. They don't have mom and dad.

Brian Lehrer: Nassau County Police Commissioner Patrick Ryder, and Jim, those comments caused a big stir when you first released the story, right?

Jim Baumbach: Yes, and those comments come from an interview we did with Commissioner Ryder, it was back in October. It was done to go over the findings and basically, my focus in that interview, and the whole interview is available on newsday.com, so you can see the full context of the statements. I'm obviously looking to see his thoughts on number one, the lack of diversity on the force, and number two, why whites advance through the process at far greater rates than minorities.

He, as you'll see, in the interview on Newsday, he really wanted to focus on that, the number of minorities who sign up for the test and then don't show up on test day is far greater than the number of whites who sign up for the test, and then don't show up on test day. Then that's what questions about, well why do you believe that is, that's what led to these answers about how well, look, a lot of them come from broken homes, or they don't have mom and dad, they're pushing you on the day, they don't have a history of law enforcement.

You'll see in those videos too, that there's no malice with these statements and the civil rights leaders were almost more bothered by that than anything else because it showed what they believe was a real sense of bias.

Brian Lehrer: And an implicit bias, not that I guess what you're describing is not that he was coming with hate in his heart, but just a really shocking misunderstanding that Black people have loving and supportive families too.

Jim Baumbach: Sure, and to be clear, we did go back to him earlier this week, we gave him a full transcript of his comments, we gave him a full transcript of the criticism that we were receiving. He initially said, look, we'll meet, we'll do it on camera, we'll talk through it, and then about two hours later, he canceled the interview and gave a statement through the County Executives office, saying essentially, that he meant no harm by it, and that he's dedicated his life to law enforcement and increasing diversity on the force.

He did apologize yesterday at a press conference to anybody who was offended by it, and he said that he was not basically trying to paint any communities with a broad brush, but he also says that he doesn't speak with from a script and that he speaks from the heart and he says what's on his mind. From the minority communities, the people I've been speaking to, they do feel like this is a sense of like you said, implicit bias that's within him, and that's coming out in this way.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls. I wonder if there's anybody who's listening who has applied to be a police officer on any of the forces on Long Island and has been rejected. What was that process like, and do you have a sense of why you didn't make it first priority, given the angle of the story, the disparity along racial lines of who gets in? First priority to Black and brown callers, but anybody may call and tell us what you think about that experience of applying to be a police officer in Nassau or Suffolk County. 646-435-7280, or if you made it through and you're on the force, 646-435-7280. Can the application process be more fair, less discriminatory? 646-435-7280, from Newsday investigative reporter, Jim Baumbach.

Jim, were there things about the test that were found to be biased? We talked about this so much now with the SATs and other things, where too many questions are not really relevant to judging the potential for success in a college or maybe in this case on a police force, and that have, again, implicit, very often unintentional, but real cultural bias.

Jim Baumbach: This is the short answer, and I'm sure that this is the answer that is the most frustrating of all is that it's complicated, and it's complicated because there's multiple steps, they're run by multiple departments of government, and there's not one real body that's overseeing every single step. For example, the written test. These are done by private companies designed for the counties and overseen by the Justice Department.

Counties, the police department say, well, we have very little to do with this written test. Then with the physical fitness test, this is one that was the most eye-opening, this is set by the state for all police departments outside of New York City, and it's a test that is really precise. It's a set number of push-ups and sit-ups, and a mile and a half run, but the push-ups and sit-ups, the way that the counties enforce it, and obviously you need a standard to enforce, but the way they enforce it is like say on the sit-ups, if you don't interlock your hands behind your head, doesn't count.

It's like okay, but at the same time, if you perhaps are white and come from a family of law enforcement, you're going to be more likely to be prepared for that test to know to interlock your hands behind your head when you do that sit up. That's one of these things that the counties are trying to fight because it's an inherent obstacle that impacts the chances of diversity.

Then there's a psychological. Suffolk County uses a firm from Georgia and they acknowledged to us that they, Blacks were eliminated nearly three times the rates of whites, and this is at a far greater stage. This is near the end of the process and this was one where experts said that these should be the top-of-the-line candidate at this point and now they're being knocked out at three times the rate. At every single step, there's interesting aspects to look at.

Brian Lehrer: There's some deep history here too which probably most of our listeners don't know. 40 years ago the US Justice Department filed a civil rights suit against Nassau and one against Suffolk with the goal of integrating the forces. The County settled through consent agreements and repeated commitments to diversify. You suggest that those consent agreements actually ended up making the problem worse. Tell us what they were and how could they have backfired.

Jim Baumbach: That's certainly the counties, both of them say that it's too arduous, there's too much of a process they need to go to. Basically, the Justice Department oversees the written testing process, that was the major impact of those consent decrees. That they found that the 1980s written test had a bias, a discriminatory impact against minorities. It's what you said at the beginning about the questions and stuff.

These consent decrees were not intended to be in place for 40 years. When they do this in 1980, whatever, they're thinking this is going to fix the problem. Now, the County Executives today are saying that this is not a process that's helping because they say it makes it far more time-consuming, candidates who are interested, the top candidates on their own decide to go to a different job when it gets to that point. Basically, they say that the Justice Department's involvement has been a negative in this.

The Justice Department, there's obviously two sides to this. We go to the Justice Department and we ask them and they refuse to comment on the findings, nor would they put attorneys who enforced these consent decrees on the phone with me to discuss them. It's an interesting aspect of this because the consent decrees were put in place for this very purpose. I think everyone can agree it has not had that impact, but what's the answer at the end of the day then?

Brian Lehrer: Let me go back to the tests. You gave the example of the physical exam that found people were getting disqualified from minor things like not doing a pushup or a sit-up exactly right, or that's what your investigative report found. You also talked to experts who disagreed on answers to some of the written questions and for the psychological test, another part of applying to be a police officer, you talked to some of the people who design and screen that portion of the entrance test and you found bias there. Give us some examples of written questions or the way people are screened psychologically.

Jim Baumbach: It's interesting because what we found in this Newsday report is that it's a very invasive process. It's very involved and obviously, you would expect that. These are people who are getting into a civil service job, that are going to have a 20-year plus career, and in a very high responsibility position. I think at the end of the day, everyone would agree. They should look into the psychological, they should look into people's backgrounds. The questions that were invasive, I guess that the experts were calling on, questioned about were you're in trouble as a child? Detailed issues that you've been in trouble in school.

Just questions like that that civil rights leaders were certainly bothered by that because they questioned how will that impact the process? How will that impact someone's ability to be on the job 30 years after being in trouble or something like that? In terms of the questions on the written test, they break it up by cognitive, by life experience. Like you mentioned, we did show it to experts. These are experts who have developed police tests. We show them one specific question and they both chose different answers and they said for different reasons and both were reasonable.

At the end of the day, the correct answer depends on the force. The way they develop these tests is that they basically poll current police officers. They ask them important parts of their job and then they develop questions around that. They're basically trying to find police officers who fit the mold of the current police officer.

Brian Lehrer: To this point, I think Douglas in Manhattan you're on WNYC. Hi Douglas.

Douglas: Hey, how's it going? No, I have two just a couple of comments. Primarily, the main driver is the test. The test, the test, the test, and how the individuals who are professional developing the test, how they develop it, that's the one that really determines whether or not a person is able to pass on the test and actually get on the force. As for myself, my experience, I looked at I'm a college graduate MBA as well as two bachelor's degrees.

I was looking at the [unintelligible 00:16:12] department test and I got to tell you some of those questions were extremely confusing. From my perspective, imagine someone who's barely a high school graduate trying to pass the test. If you miss one question, just one question, that's all you need that could really knock you out of the running, that my only comment.

Brian Lehrer: Anything you saw on the FDNY test that you can remember really specifically that jumped out at you?

Douglas: It's been a while there. It was a while that I was looking at the exam, but that's the only thing I can add, just the test.

Brian Lehrer: Douglas, thank you. Got you. The tests, the tests, the tests, and Douglas, we're going to-- The caller was Douglas, you're Jim. Jim, we're going to run out of time in a couple of minutes, we have Mayor de Blasio standing by for his weekly call-in segment with our listeners. I think to Douglas's point, that your story has already prompted the departments to make some changes. What have they said and how has your investigative report in Newsday been received?

Jim Baumbach: Well, I guess to look back at history, County Executives and police commissioners have always valued recruitment. They've always said we're going to solve this at recruitment. Recruitment has developed and given them diverse testing groups but it obviously has not solved the problem. Yesterday, Nassau County Executive Laura Curran did announce that they're creating this diversity committee to look at every single step of this. To look at not just recruitment, but to look at the civil service test, the test that Douglas was referencing.

To look at also getting out of the consent decree or changing it with the Justice Department to make it more relevant to what the job is in 2021, and also to look at supporting minority officers once they get on the force. I guess at the end of the day when you look at it, it's a completely different issue in 2021 even though it's the same issue. It's the same issue of getting diversity on the job. It's different factors in 2021 than was in 1980 whatever. They're taking a different approach. To that, it seems like at least if it's not working, you might as well try something different.

Brian Lehrer: Let me squeeze at least one more caller in here. Russell in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Russell.

Russell: Hey, Brian. Just a quick comment I wanted to make was policing seems to be a family business maybe more so than in other professions, and the comments of that police chief in Long Island saying how some of these candidates they don't come from policing families, that's the inherent problem with all of these things. Clearly, the process is biased and it's out in the open how biased it is.

The fact that if you came from a policing family you'll know to clasp your fingers behind your head, I don't think that's really what the point of it is. The point is we want people who look like us, who are like us, and it's the whole problem with the profession I think in general. What we saw last summer in New York, where people identified more with their job than any other factor of who they are. The fact is police officers it's a job, it's a job, it's a job.

Brian Lehrer: Russell, thank you very much. Jim, how do you want to react to that?

Jim Baumbach: It's interesting because you do see, I mentioned very early on about how it's like winning the lottery and we have 20,000 people going for these tests, and yet you do see a lot of family ties within these forces. These 2,500 2,400 officer forces. That does make you raise an eyebrow in how do they get through the process? That being said, we don't see evidence of people plucking someone along the way. I think the only rational and reasonable evidence is that they are just better prepared at every single step. You mentioned the test before, the written test, it is the gateway to this process. You don't get into this process, you don't get to do that sit-up unless you pass the test.

I'm looking at the Suffolk 2019 test right now, it was the most diverse test Suffolk's ever had in terms of the people who showed up on test day. It was 64% white at the start. Those who actually scored high enough to have a chance of the job, it was 73% white. Right off the bat, white representation does significantly better just off that test and that's the gateway. There's something to be looked at every single step of this process.

Brian Lehrer: Jim Baumbach, investigative reporter for Newsday. His deep dive into hiring and racial disparities in that hiring in Nassau and Suffolk County Police forces is called Barriers to Badges. Jim, thanks for sharing it with us.

Jim Baumbach: Thanks for having me.

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