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Rebeca Ibarra: Listeners after the break, we're going to discuss the fallout from the New York Times article exposing a situation over at ESPN. In recently released leaked audio sports broadcaster, Rachel Nichols can be heard, implying that her colleague Maria Taylor only received a position hosting last year's NBA finals because she is Black. Listeners of color, BIPOC listeners, we want to hear from you if you've ever been in a situation like this. The number to call is 646-435-7280.

A line from the original New York Times article reads, "Multiple Black ESPN employees said they told one another after hearing the conversation that it confirmed their suspicions, that outwardly supportive white people talk differently behind closed doors."

Listeners, we want to open up the phones right up to you. Does that line resonate with you? Do you have fears of being viewed as a token diversity hire or diversity worker in your workplace? Give us a call at 646-435-7280 or maybe someone has directly told you that you would go far specifically because of your race. Tell us your stories and reactions. Again, the number to call is 646-435-7280. We'll get to your calls and our guests, LA Times deputy sports editor, Iliana Limón Romero, stay with us.

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It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. I'm Rebeca Ibarra, the local host, and producer for NPR, and WNYC's Consider This. I'm also a host in the WNYC newsroom and I'm filling in for Brian today. In recently released audio by the New York Times, ESPN's sports broadcaster Rachel Nichols can be heard speaking to an advisor of basketball player, LeBron James, Adam Mendelsohn back in July 2020. Let's take a listen to that audio.

Rachel Nichols: I wish Maria Taylor all the successes in the world. She covers football, she covers basketball. If you need her to give her more things to do, because you're feeling pressure about your crappy longtime record on diversity, by the way, I myself like know personally from the female side of it, go for it, just find it somewhere else. You're not going to find it with me.

Rebeca Ibarra: That was a little bit hard to hear. I'm going to paraphrase a bit. She says, I wish my Maria Taylor, all the success in the world, but if you need to give her more things to do because you are feeling "pressure about your crappy longtime record on diversity", go for it but find it somewhere else. Even though that audio was recorded almost a year ago, a New York Times article finally brought it to public attention, causing Nichols to issue an apology on air.

ESPN has also removed her from NBA finals sideline coverage this year plus the social media scrutiny has been intense. Lots to discuss here. Again, listeners, if any of this resonates with you the number to call is 646-435-7280, or you can tweet us at @BrianLehrer.

Joining us now to give us insight into this ongoing situation and to help take your calls is Iliana Limón Romero, deputy sports editor for the Los Angeles Time. She's also the chair of the Association for Women in Sports Media and co-chair of the National Association of Hispanics Journalists Sports Taskforce. Her recent article on the topic is called, "This Isn't About Maria Versus Rachel, ESPN Must Address Pervasive Race Problems." Thanks for being here at Iliana.

Iliana Limón Romero: Thank you.

Rebeca Ibarra: When you first heard the audio that we played at the top, what was your initial reaction?

Iliana Limón Romero: I was not surprised, which is unfortunate. I was not surprised that this had happened. I was not surprised by the stress and anxiety that was represented in all ways on the audio. I think what I tried to point out in the column was not only is there an issue with what many people have reacted to journalists of color, professionals of color who have heard this slur essentially before that you're only here because of your race. That also applies to some gender dynamics too.

Rachel Nichols is an ambitious journalist who was eager to find a role in didn't feel that her voice was being heard internally. There were many layers of problems that had been well known at ESPN. They've been working on them, but it is a vast company that has major institutional struggles that I think are very relatable for people of many different walks of life and through many different business lenses.

Rebeca Ibarra: The recorded conversation took place, as we said, nearly a year ago after Nichols learned that she wouldn't host coverage during the 2020 finals but ESPN has been trying to deal with that since then. Why has it taken so long for the public to find out?

Iliana Limón Romero: I think people inside ESPN were looking inside ESPN for answers. I don't think it was an intention to shame anyone right out of the gate. I think the goal was to, one, shock and looking for guidance of how this would be handled and missteps all throughout the past year really led to it finally boiling over and a New York Times journalist getting a copy of the full audio that was available.

A smaller snippet had leaked to Deadspin in the past, but there was no-- this website Deadspin.com did not have the full context and really couldn't go forward with much of anything at that point. Really, I think people internally that I spoke with, were just trying to get answers from within and it continued to be a stress point. It continued to be a challenge and they didn't feel it was sufficiently addressed internally.

Rebeca Ibarra: Let's go to callers because this story seems to be resonating with a lot of people. Let's go to Natasha in Brooklyn Natasha, thank you for calling WNYC. What is your story?

Natasha: Sure. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking my call. As I told the screener, I worked in a company here in New York, a few years back, and I could sense that it wasn't going well and actually several coworkers were being laid off but when I relayed that to one of my coworkers who was white, she said to me on several occasions, they're not going to terminate or lay you off because you're Black and--

Rebeca Ibarra: How did that make you feel?

Natasha: Terrible because I knew it was coming and it actually did. It inferred that I wasn't qualified for the job and I've heard this through other colleagues that the sense is that you received the job outside of other qualified candidates, because of your color or your status as a person of color.

Rebeca Ibarra: What does that make you feel just in your everyday work life? Does it make you question what you do? Does it make you go back and think, "Ah, do people think I'm not good enough?" What does that do to your psyche?

Natasha: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think in the last year we've seen a lot of details and articles on imposter syndrome and really that very much so defined what I was feeling during that time because I am qualified. I did have the degree and experience to be in that role, but because this was literally ingrained in my head, told to me by a senior employee, I questioned myself, and quite frankly, I didn't perform as well because I was second-guessing everything I did and [crosstalk] even today--

Rebeca Ibarra: Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Natasha: Exactly. Even in being in a more supportive environment, I still have that trauma of always being subject to, "Am I good enough."

Rebeca Ibarra: Natasha, thank you so much for calling and sharing your story. Iliana, does this story resonate at all with things you've either been hearing in ESPN and other major places?

Iliana Limón Romero: Absolutely. The flood of response to the commentary that I wrote calling for more women of color in leadership positions at ESPN to help better understand issues at the heart of this particular debate and to really help move the conversation forward and sell these kinds of employment or employee issues, that resonated across the board. The majority of comments were either current and former ESPN employees who absolutely agreed with what was laid out and then a ton of people of color from all backgrounds who just really felt like that specifically spoke to them of how they feel.

Imposter syndrome is something that many of us struggle with and I think it really leads to one of two reactions. One, just a shocking lack of confidence that can lead to a paralysis and a difficulty just moving forward and getting ahead doing your job because you're constantly second-guessing yourself or on the extreme other end, working too hard. Constantly pushing, taking on extra tasks, working too hard to the point that you're trying to prove and justify your existence and as a result, it can lead to all kinds of other problems, including burnout and just overwhelming fatigue.

Rebeca Ibarra: You're listening to the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC I'm Rebecca Ibarra-- a host in the WMYC newsroom. We're talking about leaked audio from ESPN and workplace feelings about diversity with LA Times, deputy sports editor, Iliana Limón Romero. We're getting a lot of calls and I want to get to some of them. Let's go to Chris in Brooklyn. Chris, thank you so much for calling to WMYC. What's your story?

Chris: Hi. My story is actually my wife's story. My wife is a physician and, she trained here in Brooklyn and she had been chief resident in her residency program here in Brooklyn. When she was applying for fellowship, her boss, who was a white man and my wife is Black, told her that she should play the Black card. "You should play the Black card when you're applying."

She was so confused. She was saying, "My board scores, the fact that I was chief resident here, those don't count for anything. Just the fact that I'm Black, that's what I should do to get into a fellowship program."

Rebeca Ibarra: What advice did you give your wife, Chris?

Chris: No. Firstly, we didn't understand what "play the Black card" was, to begin with. When you apply for a fellowship, you actually have to send a picture. I guess just by being Black, you play the Black card. It was very strange. It was just one of a number of racist-type incidents that she had with that individual and it's so distressing. To me, it speaks to a much wider problem that people want to acknowledge.

Rebeca Ibarra: Chris, thank you so much for calling and sharing you and your family's story. Iliana, you wrote in your article "It's not hard to do the right thing," and yet ESPN leadership has too often failed to support Black female journalists. Can you tell us more about that?

Iliana Limón Romero: Absolutely. From a combination of interviews with journalists within the company, both in front of the camera, the prominent faces that viewers see and producers, executive producers, and higher-level executives, the sense was that there just was not a path to be heard. There was not a path to be supported and I had the opportunity to talk on the record with Jamal Hill, former ESPN anchor, who specifically spoke to feeling that as soon as Black journalists tend to have-- in particular Black women, tend to have more opinions and tend to share those opinions internally, it becomes a problem. It became an issue and there was a lot of pushback.

I will say that, chairman Jimmy Pitaro has made a lot of statements and tried a lot internally to lay a foundation for how they expect to move forward, especially in light of the racial reckoning within the past year.

The challenge is, it's such a big company. There is such a huge layer of middle management that has existed for so long that has done things in a specific way. It has been hard for them to understand how even these casual references that we're talking about are really deeply troubling. It's hard for them to grasp some of these problems that requires training, that requires adding more staff at a comparable level to guide them and those who can not be guided have to be held accountable.

Those are the things that they're not quite there yet and that absolutely internally, there is extreme stress over what is seen as inequality in terms of discipline, performance, promotion. Despite having admitted it, many journalists of color work there and are successful, it's just there's inequality and major challenges behind the scenes that are really causing extreme stress.

Rebeca Ibarra: Let's go to a caller now, again, Julia in Bloomfield, New Jersey. Julia, thank you so much for calling. What's your story?

Julia: Thanks for having me. I worked at a company where I felt like, well, basically what they did was hire, people of color intentionally to meet their diversity. They grew, what they call the model minorities and groomed them for a position of maybe like a senior-level position, but they also hired a white colleague and within months notice she got promoted to a position that everybody felt that she wasn't qualified for.

First of all, most of us had advanced degrees. I myself work in technology. We all have the experience 10 plus years. She came in, she had four years just with the company, but was still finishing her degree, but she got promoted to the position and we all talked amongst ourselves that we're in the same position as her. We knew she didn't know what questions to ask? How did she get this position overnight? Just promoted. It just was so in our face.

I feel like this is widespread. This is not just to one particular industry because I'm in healthcare IT and I've worked in several different industries and I see that everywhere. Right now, I'm working as a consultant. I was an employee with that company. Thankfully, they gave me a package that was a good sign, and now I'm a consultant.

I try not to get so much into politics, but I find that like, now that there's more spotlight on things that's happening, especially in the African-American community, they're trying to go out and recruit us just to say that they have in the ranks, but when it comes to getting in positions of leadership and positions of power and position of hiring, they don't want to put us in that position and it's lacking.

Rebeca Ibarra: Julia, thank you so much for calling and sharing your story. Iliana, I want to hit a point that Julia made on the model minority. This is more of a comment but I was talking to a friend the other day and we were saying that true equality is the right for non-white people to be mediocre, and get promotions being mediocre like so many, white people have. I wonder if you have any thoughts to the story Julia shared or what you've been hearing.

Iliana Limón Romero: I absolutely agree with you that is when we know that we've made it. That is absolutely when we know we've gotten there. It does resonate across the board and we're in a high-stress period. I think we can generally say across this country, we're in a high-stress period and there is economic uncertainty across all industries. When you are in that position, typically you have one opportunity to hire, that hire has to work out and take stress off the rest of your team.

When you have managers who are primarily white, older males, they are going to go with what's comfortable, with what feels safe, what they are familiar with, and what they think is going to work out the best. We're seeing maybe more women of that background, might get in, but otherwise, they're going and pulling back on these tendencies because of this stress level and that is where we have problems like the one that caller just described.

That is the pattern that we're seeing through the work that I do with the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and the Association for Women in Sports Media. I've consistently heard it across the board. I do want to say on diversity being the diversity hire, I referenced it, we've talked a lot about it. It is not something that you want to hear from someone.

At the same time, I do think that diversity programs are important in terms of opening doors and giving people opportunities but what I usually say to people that I mentor who are in those, you belong and regardless of how many times you hear that language in a joking or derogatory way, and it is unsettling how casually it's shared, but no matter how much you hear that you belong. You don't have an uncle who worked at the company and can make a phone call, you have this. It levels things in very specific ways that are important and valuable.

Trying to turn around the language so that people feel empowered to know that they weren't born with wealth, but this offers them some of those principles, this offers them some of those things that existed for others. It's okay to apply for a diversity program. It's okay to take the diversity fellowship. You just need to not let the way other people view it, weigh you down.

Rebeca Ibarra: Yes, absolutely. As a member of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, I agree with you. I endorse it non-objectively. You've covered sports for a long time, Iliana. Has the industry changed at all since you started and are you hopeful for the future?

Iliana Limón Romero: I am hopeful for the future. It has not changed as much as I would hope. I previously was a sports editor of the Orlando Sentinel. At that time, I was the only Latina sports editor at a newspaper in the United States. I took advantage of this wonderful opportunity to meet with the Los Angeles Times four months ago and I'm thrilled with the support and everything that I'm able to do, including the commentary I was cleared to write, but now we have zero. I'm the deputy sports editor. It's a different title.

The work that I do is really focused on making sure that we're opening those doors and making sure that people who do get in the door do not feel the same frustration that all of our callers did and leave. There is a consistent thread here of people just leaving because they don't feel support. We don't want them to stay in toxic environments, of course, but at the same time, we need to do what we can to make sure that, like I said, opening doors, providing opportunities, helping support them as much as possible.

Rebeca Ibarra: Going to have to leave it there. My guest has been Iliana Limón Romero, deputy sports editor for the Los Angeles Times. She's also the chair of the Association for Women in Sports Media, and co-chair of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists Sports Taskforce. Iliana, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Iliana Limón Romero: Thank you.

Rebeca Ibarra: I'm Rebeca Ibarra and this is the Brian Lehrer show on WMYC. Brian will be back tomorrow. Thank you so much for listening. [music]

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