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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Brian today. We'll now talk about the life and legacy of Layleen Polanco. Back in 2019, Layleen, a trans Afro-Latina woman was sent to Rikers Island on drug and sex work charges. At the age of 27, she suffered a fatal seizure in what was in effect solitary confinement. A new podcast honors Layleen's life and explores the systems that failed her. The podcast is Afterlives: The Layleen Polanco Story, and it comes to us from Raquel Willis, known in part for her work on the Trans Obituaries Project. Raquel Willis is a trans activist and the author of the new book, The Risk It Takes to Bloom: On Life and Liberation. She joins me now. Raquel, welcome back to WNYC.

Raquel Willis: Thank you so much for having me, Brigid.

Brigid: Listeners, we can take your calls about the life and legacy of Layleen Polanco, the number 212-433 WNYC. That's (212) 433-9692. You can also call or text us or tweet @BrianLehrer. Raquel, before we begin our conversation, I want to play just about a minute from this first episode. Here's a clip from Afterlives.

Speaker 3: Here was an Afro-Latina whose story felt like it touched so many systems of power that affect trans women. I connected with her, I mourned her, and I wasn't alone. Hundreds gathered in New York City Monday to demand justice for Layleen Polanco.

[crowd chants]

Speaker 4: The recent death of a 27-year-old woman on Rikers Island is raising questions about the way officials there hold people in solitary confinement.

Speaker 5: We have a full investigation going on.

Speaker 6: Layleen Polanco could have been released from Rikers if she was able to post a bail of just $500.

Crowd: [chanting] Black lives matter. Black lives matter.

Speaker 7: Every time they come for one of us, we come stronger.

[music]

Brigid: That's a clip from Afterlife: The Layleen Polanco Story, episode 1. I know some of our listeners probably heard in that clip, the voice of our friend Richard Hake, who's the newscaster in that piece, but so many people who know the name Layleen Polanco have read the stories about her death at Rikers. One of the ways your podcast honors her is by telling us about Layleen Polanco's rich Life well before that. Let's begin there, who was Layleen Polanco and what do her loved ones remember about the person she was?

Raquel: Yes, Bridget. Well, I guess I would also just love to start saying how I got connected to Layleen's story. Really, a shortly after her death was reported, a dear friend, Elleo Cruz who at the time was working at the Anti-Violence Project, an organization here in New York but also has reached nationally, told me about the story. That wasn't uncommon because I of course had this history of elevating stories of trans women of color in particular who had experienced violence. Layleen's story is so rich because she literally had a life that was at the intersections of so many of the different pieces of LGBTQ life that we often think of in mass media.

She was connected to the House of Xtravaganza, so bringing in that ballroom element. She had a chosen community mother and so bringing in that chosen family element, but she was also someone who really shone a light on ableism and living with disability and mental health. She also had schizophrenia, had epilepsy.

She had all of these experiences in addition to the ones that corresponded with her demise. That included being held on bail that she couldn't afford, being engaged in sex work that of course has been criminalized. Then of course being held in solitary confinement.

Brigid: Raquel, New York City's ballroom scene was also an important part of Layleen's identity. Do you want to describe the culture for the uninitiated, and then tell us how Layleen found her way into that scene?

Raquel: We found a rich experience highlighted from ballroom culture. Of course, back in 1990 when Paris is burning, that seminal documentary came out, but of course, there was also vogue of Madonna fame that took over the world. Then most recently in pop culture we've seen shows like Pose. We've seen HBO Max. I think they just go by Max, my bad. Legendary, and then of course, Beyonce's amazing Renaissance concert, which I was so lucky to be a part of. We've seen ballroom culture enter the mainstream.

I think what has often been ignored of course are some of the real lived experiences and some of the struggles maybe that some people also experience. When I think about someone like Layleen, she was someone who found ballroom culture and it filled a void in her life where she found connection with folks who understood more acutely what she was experiencing as a young trans Afro-Latina.

Brigid: You speak with a member of Layleen's House, the actor Indya Moore known for her role in the FX series Pose, which you mentioned. Here's a part of what she told you about Layleen.

Indya Moore: When you're a kid, there's always some people that you look to in your understanding of what's beautiful. You aspire to be like them. Layleen was one of those girls. She was Dominican, and I'm Dominican, and she just reminded me of my culture. She didn't have just charm, she had sex appeal. Layleen was one of the women that was a reflection for what it looked like for me to grow into a confident, and beautiful and secure woman.

Brigid: Raquel, any reaction or anything of that clip prompts you to think about?

Raquel: Well, it's so wonderful to hear from the shining superstar. Indya is a model and a beacon for our community, of course, rose to fame through Pose and so many other projects. It's always beautiful to hear the impact that someone like Layleen who we lost too soon already had on her community. I think that that was all often lost in the discussion when I started the Trans Obituaries project that sparked Afterlives. Was that we often forget that there is a legacy left behind when trans folks of color are taken from us. The thing about Layleen is that in the wake of her death, there have been so many strides made around showing up for folks who have experienced incarceration, who have been held in solitary. There's been some strides made of course in organizing around decriminalizing sex work and so much more. I think it's important for us to understand that those things are so key to making sure that there aren't any more demises like Layleens.

Brigid: If you're just joining us, I'm Brigid Bergin from the WNYC in Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian. My guest is Raquel Willis, trans activist, author of the new book, The Risk it Takes To Bloom: On Life and Liberation, and the host of the new podcast Afterlives: The Layleen Polanco Story which is out tomorrow. I think you drop a new episode. We're really thrilled to have Raquel here during Trans Awareness Week, which is just starting. I want to talk a little bit more about the first episode of this podcast, Raquel, where you begin to explore how Layleen's life took a turn.

Then in episode 2, we hear about the tough times Layleen faced in her mid-20s. A period in which she became wrapped up in the criminal justice system. What happened in that time period and what were some of the difficulties that she faced?

Raquel: Absolutely. Well, episode 1 is titled Layleen because that's really where we started getting deep into her life and what life was like for her just before reaching Rikers. Then later on of course in the following episodes, we talk more about her struggles in trying to find job opportunities, which really left sex work as the only option that she had to sustain herself. She had periods of time where she was incarcerated and more, and all of that impacted her physical and mental health. I think what's so important about Layleen's story is that we get a chance to really flesh out these details for an audience that may not be aware of the impact that a society rife with transphobia on multiple levels feels like for trans people, and what that means in terms of the limited options that we have to thrive and survive.

This week is Trans Awareness Week, we'll end it on November 20th with the annual observance of Trans Day of Remembrance. Layleen's story hopefully will be a gateway for folks to understand this epidemic of violence, which includes so many different types of violence, from state violence, which ultimately led to Layleen's demise, but of course, intimate partner violence and so much more. Just in the last month and a half, there have been six black trans and gender nonconforming folks killed in the United States or died by grisly means. Layleen's story really gives us an opportunity to unpack why these dynamics exist.

Brigid: Let's bring some of our callers into this conversation. Yevgenia from Manhattan, thanks for calling WNYC.

Yevgenia Ivanutenko: Good morning. Do you guys hear me okay?

Brigid: We do.

Yevgenia: Great. My name is Yevgenia Ivanutenko. I'm a queer sex worker rights activist. I really appreciate you, Raquel, for speaking about Layleen so passionately and for shining a light on her rich life outside of the horrible things that were done to her. There's so many things that went wrong in Layleene's case, but I'd like to just tackle one, and I hope you give me a minute or two to talk about it. A lot of people don't know or don't remember that Layleen was actually held at Rikers for her unwillingness to participate in the city's human trafficking intervention court program.

She was originally arrested for misdemeanor prostitution when an undercover police officer asked her to perform oral sex on him. Layleen was not being trafficked. What was done to her, I think, really exposes the dangers of criminalizing sex work and also the dangers of conflating sex work and human trafficking. Like Raquel said, trans people often engage in sex work due to the rampant discrimination that they experience when seeking conventional forms of employment. I actually recently spoke with Judge Fernando Camacho. He was the architect of New York City's Human Trafficking Intervention Court. I spoke to him about the risks of assuming that every sex worker is being trafficked and forcing them to take part in his program or else they get sent to jail like Layleen was. He dismissed my concerns. He was not open open to further discussion.

As Raquel mentioned, Layleen also experienced mental health issues. Sex work is often the most accessible and flexible form of employment for people with health issues, both mental and physical, and so for trans people, this is huge. They often require a lot of health care services while transitioning and really need that scheduling flexibility, which many conventional employers just don't offer. When we're talking about sex workers' rights, we're also talking about trans rights. What happened to Layleen is just one example of what happens when we involve the police, the prisons, the courts, in the lives of marginalized people who are not hurting anyone and simply trying to survive.

Sex worker rights advocates, including myself and many others, we're calling for the large-scale decriminalization of sex work, which is the same as legalization. It is also not the same as the Nordic model, otherwise known as the end-demand model, which is unfortunately gaining popularity in New York and other states.

Brigid: Yevgenia, I'm going to jump in and cut you off because we're starting down the path of a whole other segment and conversation, which is a good conversation to have, but I don't want to take away from the very important conversation that we're having right now, and that's about Layleen Polanco, this new podcast. Raquel, the work that you have done-- Before I ask you some more about that, I do want to see if you have any reaction, though, to so much of what offered, put to into this conversation.

Raquel: Well, I have to underscore Yevgenia. So much of what has been said is true. Often we have folks, and particularly lawmakers, that conflate this idea that human trafficking is the same as this experience of consensual adult sex work, and it isn't. We do need to be having these nuanced discussions, and I thank you so much, Yevgenia, for elevating some nuance here in this discussion. I want to say, one of the beautiful things about our podcast is that we were able to bring in some powerful trans leaders in the decriminalization sex work movement, thinking of people like Cecilia Gentile, powerful person who has a one-woman show out now, so definitely support her work because she talks about all of these topics as well.

We also were able to highlight other, particularly Black trans leaders like Tabitha Gonzalez and Kristen Lovell, who actually was the director of HBO's The Stroll, which goes into the deep rich history of sex work in the meatpacking district for trans folks of color in New York. Thank you so much, Yevgenia, for bringing in such rich dialogue here, and I do think we need to have a discussion on this. Hopefully, we can have another segment here where we can get deeper into sex work in particular and why it needs to be decriminalized.

Brigid: Thank you again, Yevgenia, for your call. Raquel, I want to come back to some of what you explored in this podcast, specific to Layleen's experience on Rikers Island. Rikers has been described in very stark terms. The conditions there are nothing short of completely appalling. For a trans woman, things must be even worse. Can you tell us about Layleen's life and death on Rikers Island?

Raquel: Absolutely. Well, we also were able to have some powerful discussions really on the ongoing back and forth by particularly whoever is in the mayoral seat at the time, their administration's thoughts and work around closing Rikers. We know that Eric Adams inherited the plan to close Rikers from de Blasio. Essentially said that he was committed to seeing through that closure during his campaign, but of course, his policies haven't reflected that. We know that Adams is knee-deep in law enforcement and the criminal and justice system.

We have a lot of work left to do here in making sure that we do show up for our folks who are experiencing the brunt of incarceration, the brunt of brutality. Oftentimes that is Black and brown trans folks who we often don't hear the stories of. In addition to that, we also talked to some powerful folks who worked at Rikers and really gave us their inside vantage points of the conditions, particularly in the LGBTQ+ affairs unit, which was a specialized unit that was formed after Layleen's death. We really found some important dynamics there that we have to continue to because even in these spaces that are allegedly for folks on the margins, for LGBTQ+ folks, we continue to see complicity in the mistreatment of LGBTQ+ folks. We have so much more work to do and I hope that our dialogue within the podcast will spark even more movement on changing these dynamics.

Brigid: Raquel, I just want to make sure that we underscore and clarify there had been a unit on Rikers Island intended to protect trans women, but I believe under the Adams administration that unit has essentially collapsed. Is that what you were referring to, and do you think the city has taken steps in the wrong direction when it comes to protecting trans women in its jails?

Raquel: Well, I definitely think that one of the key factors that we found, of course, and the folks that we talked to was that, there were employees that resigned essentially because of the dynamics that played out in that unit. If the employees are already experiencing difficulties, you can only imagine how much worse it is for the folks who are being housed as well. I think we have to be looking at this critically, and we have to be holding our leaders accountable. If leaders like Adams are saying that they're going to close Rikers, they're going to really do right by folks who are incarcerated, then we need to be making sure that they actually move forward on that and they don't just kick the can down the road, which it seems like they are invested in doing right now.

Brigid: Raquel, does the podcast get into some of the potential policy solutions that could prevent the loss of life? I'm thinking specifically about consensual sex work. We started to talk about that topic, does the podcast go there?

Raquel: Well, we definitely talk to the advocates who are leading the sex work decriminalization movement here in New York. We also talk about some of the strides that have been made, thinking about the repeal of the walking while trans law what's happened in 2021. We have definitely seen legislation introduced and move that seems to be taking us in the right direction. Again, we have to continue to have these conversations and continue to have these investigations into this work. There's so much left to be done and I don't want anyone to think even with some of the silver linings that we have baked into the podcast that everything is gravy, because it certainly is not.

Brigid: Layleen's memory lives on through her two families, her birth family and her chosen family. How have their lives changed since her death and how are they keeping her name alive?

Raquel: Well, I have to give so much love to Layleen's family, for elevating her story, for really joining forces with activists and advocates and organizers on the ground to make sure that some of these conditions can shift. In particular, I think about her sister, Melania Brown, who we really open the series with a loving walk down memory lane of Melania's use favorite memories with Layleen, they were so close. When I think about how unique this story is, I think about how often we don't hear from the origin families of trans folks that we've lost to violence or to murder or just death by horrible means.

That is so important because trans folks aren't just satellites floating off in the distance. We're not isolated from the folks around us. We have loved ones who remember us and who want justice, especially if we're taken too soon. Melania really has emerged as a powerful voice and of course activist as well. I was lucky to share the stage with her back in the summer of 2020 at the Brooklyn Liberation March.

Brigid: Raquel, before we let you go, I have to ask about your new book, your memoir, The Risk it Takes to Bloom: On Life and Liberation. Can you tell us a little bit about anything that comes out this week?

Raquel: Absolutely, it actually comes out today.

Brigid: Congratulations.

Raquel: If you're listening, this is a beautiful day for me, but also just this week, we have the book coming out today, I get to talk about my experience as a Black trans woman from the south, Augusta, Georgia in particular coming into my identity, but of course, coming into a career as a storyteller and activist for social justice. In there, I talk a lot about these moments of tragedy that really sparked me to bloom in a sense because the title is The Risk it Takes to Bloom. I think one of those key tragedies, of course, was the demise of Layleen.

She really has been a North Star for me in the last few years in terms of deepening the kind of stories that I would like to tell about our community. We need to be having deep conversations on how we can shatter so many expectations, but of course, the systems of oppression around us that keep us from thriving and surviving. All of this is lockstep, in line with so much that is happening. You can't have a conversation about the over 600 pieces of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation being moved across the country without talking about how the horrific conditions in Rikers impacted the life and then led to the death of someone like Layleen Polanco and, of course, the ongoing epidemic of violence that other mostly Black trans and gender nonconforming folks are facing even on the outside of the criminal injustice system. It's all connected, and I hope that we can understand that.

Brigid: Raquel Willis, trans activist, author of the new book out today, The Risk it Takes to Bloom: On Life and Liberation, and host of the new podcast Afterlives: The Layleen Polanco Story. Those episodes will be out tomorrow. We know you're having an incredibly busy week, Raquel, thank you so much for joining us during the Trans Awareness Week.

Raquel: Of course, thank you so much.

Brigid: If you want to hear more, there will be a live conversation with Raquel, an actor, activist, Elliott Page, at the Brooklyn Museum on Thursday, November 16th. More info at brooklynmuseum.org.

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