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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. As we begin the 2024 presidential election cycle, at least one big thing is different on the Democratic side than in 2016 or 2020. Bernie Sanders is not running for president, so what's the Democratic socialist to do? We know how timid many American progressives consider Joe Biden to be a liberal and not in a good way, but then again, Biden came into office comparing himself to a new LBJ or a new FDR with some pretty social democratic ideas that he had in his original economic plans, which might have been working-class game changers were it not for Republicans and Congress, oh, and Joe Manchin.

Remember all that with Joe Manchin killing most of them, but still, Biden will need progressive turnout next year against whoever the Republican nominee is. An emerging challenge appears to be that the legendary, progressive and union theological seminary professor, Cornel West has announced his candidacy, not in the Democratic primaries like RFK Jr. but as a third-party candidate. Will he be the Ralph Nader of 2024?

Al Gore voters from 2020 obviously still have nightmares of that election and Ralph Nader's role in it. The Nation Magazine already has a couple of articles that ask Cornel West not to do it or to run as a Democrat, but here he is on C-SPAN recently saying why he is running as a third-party candidate.

Cornel West: I'm in it because I'm engaging in the quest for truth, the condition of truth is to allow suffering to speak and justice, and justice is what love looks like in public. This is deep democracy that focuses on poor and working people is what justice looks like in practice. For me, it's a matter of raising my voice and making sure that we acknowledge the ways in which the two-party system is an impediment for dealing with the problems of poor and working people here and around the world.

Both parties tied to big money. Both parties tied to Wall Street, Pentagon, big militarism, 800 military units abroad. US troops in 150 countries, $0.57 per every $1 going to the military. We need jobs with a living wage. We need decent housing. We need quality education. A whole host of basic social needs among the masses of Americans. You can imagine disproportionately Black and Brown and Indigenous people who are wrestling with this poverty. I want the abolition of poverty.

Brian Lehrer: Cornel West on C-SPAN. Should he do it? With us now, Rutgers Professor of Labor Studies, Eric Blanc. He researches new workplace organizing, digital labor activism, strikes, and working-class politics. He has a Substack newsletter, laborpolitics.substack.com. He's a member of the New York City Democratic Socialist of America. He's got a forthcoming book called DIY Unionism and he's also the author of several existing books, Red State Revolt, The Teachers Strike Wave and Working Class Politics, which came out in 2019, and Revolutionary Social Democracy, Working Class Politics Across the Russian Empire, 1882 to 1917, deep history there. Professor Blanc, thanks for joining us. Welcome to WNYC.

Eric Blanc: Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with a view of recent history. Did Bernie Sanders accomplish anything for this country, in your opinion, by running in the last two presidential races?

Eric Blanc: Not only did he accomplish something, but I would argue that probably, he's responsible more than any other person in our recent history for reviving a strong left in the United States. Obviously, he didn't win the presidency, but Bernie Sanders brought forthright socialist politics back into the mainstream of US political life, which it had been banished for decades. He helped to revive and organized socialist movements.

Democratic Socialist of America revival was in large part in the wake because of the Bernie Sanders campaign, Medicare for All, Green New Deal, all of these demands that really go beyond what anything the Democratic party had even talked about, became litmus tests for whether you're a real progressive or whether you're really on the side of working people.

Bernie accomplished a huge amount. He changed the political discussion in the US, helped revise a socialist left, and not just that, helped inspire many of the workers who right now all across the country are unionizing.

We saw that in the West Virginia teachers' strikes, what we're seeing in the Starbucks campaign, the Amazon campaign, and all across the country, we have young workers, many whom voted for Bernie, a lot of whom volunteered for Bernie, are saying, "Well, we're going to continue the political revolution at work." I would argue that Bernie, very clearly and dramatically and historically showed the power of running as a socialist within the Democratic Party even though that's a strategy that up until now has barely been attempted, and now we're seeing the fruits of that.

Brian Lehrer: I see our lines are starting to light up already, so I want to make sure everybody has the phone number, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you're a DSA member or you lean that way, if you have an opinion about Cornel West running as a third-party candidate, or how Joe Biden should run as a Democrat, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for Rutgers Professor of Labor Studies, Eric Blanc, 212-433-9692.

You can also text to that number and we'll see your texts. Staying on Bernie Sanders for a minute, professor, he isn't even a member of the Democratic Party, as you just noted. He's an independent socialist, but he did choose to run both times in the Democratic primaries. Did you support that decision at the time?

Eric Blanc: Yes, I came from a tradition on the left, like many people that saw running in the Democratic Party as just something you should never do, for the reasons that Cornel West I think eloquently explained, but when Bernie ran in 2016, I changed my opinion because it became clear that we had an opening to speak to an audience that just wasn't being spoken to by running marginal third-party efforts. I think that Bernie showed it was possible to maintain your political independence even when running within the Democratic primary.

Bernie was saying the exact same message that Cornel West just said, very clearly pointing out capitalism as the flaw behind so much of the social crises in the US, calling out Democratic party leaders for siding with corporate America, saying we need mass movements. These types of messages are possible to articulate even when you're running on the Democratic party ballot. I'm not convinced that any other approach has been proven to be able to really do mass politics, where you speak to the millions that people don't already agree with you, not just the leftists who are already on board.

Brian Lehrer: Cornel West, are you surprised that he's running at all? Are you surprised that he's going to run not in the Democratic primary? Are you happy that he's doing this?

Eric Blanc: I am surprised that Cornel West is running, and I'll preface this by saying that I'm a huge Cornel West fan. I think almost any democratic socialist in the US, extremely inspired by him and proud to have him on our side, and he's really one of the most eloquent spokespeople for the left and progressive movements and certainly democratic socialism. I was surprised because like myself, Cornel West had been on the Bernie campaign. He was a very prominent Bernie supporter and saw I think firsthand the power of running a viable mass political campaign, including within the Democratic Party.

What I'm chagrined by and surprised by is that instead of sticking with an approach that has proven to be exponentially more effective than failed third parties, most notably Green Party efforts prior, it seems to be a reversion back to the failed strategy of the US left prior to Bernie, which was to run symbolic marginal presidential campaigns that do nothing to build mass organization, and that actually make it harder to get the message across about anti-corporate politics, the transformational demands that we need, because all of the debate becomes centered on whether this person will be a spoiler.

By extricating himself from that spoiler dynamic, Bernie was able to much better focus on the real issues. I'm worried that Cornel West by running as a Green party, is entering into a spoiler dynamic that will distract from the message and that will give the Democratic party a very plausible case for why we should ignore Cornel West and to disparage him and say that the left is ultimately going to help Donald Trump. This is the danger of the two-party system and the way the US politics is set up.

It's a bad system. I agree with Colonel West that we should transform and get beyond that, but it is true that a successful "third party campaign" let's say, or a 5% for the Green party could tip the balance of the election to Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, and that would be a catastrophe. It's not just an invented dilemma, this is something that's baked into the system. Then unless you have a plausible explanation for how you're going to avoid helping the Republicans take office, it's hard to take that campaign seriously.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. We've got a few Cornel West supporters calling in. Let's hear from one Julian in Manhattan. You're on WNYC. Hi, Julian.

Julian: Hi, Brian. I'm excited that you're talking about this because I've been thinking about it a lot for this upcoming election. I'm 34 years old. I voted for Obama twice, voted for Hillary, voted for Joe, but I think in that clip that you played with Cornel West, it's illustrated a lot of what folks are feeling, especially those that have seen politics change over the past decade and a half. Personally, I'm pretty fed up with the Democrats and the Democratic party.

Since 2008, they've been coming to young people asking for our vote, saying, "We're going to do this, we're going to change this." As soon as they get into office, it's the same status quo system. It's especially after everything that we went through in 2020 protests, calls for racial justice, calls for actually looking at how we can change our judicial system. Of course, Joe Biden just goes and gives more money to the police, more money to the military.

I think that at this point, we can no longer really be afraid of the spoiler question. We really have to say, "Okay, there needs to be a jolt to the system that allows-- I'm primarily speaking it to the left right now. There needs to be a substantial go to the system that it says, "We need to organize outside of the "liberal Democratic party", and we need to make a stand for what we actually believe." Because again, Joe Biden has done nothing and the Democrats have done nothing. For I see my generation no real justice reform on policing, no student loan debt. You didn't legislate to protect women's rights to choose, you know what I mean? Just to ask for our votes again, I think it's too much.

Brian Lehrer: Let me follow up with you on a couple of things on what you were just saying about the Democratic party not doing anything in those categories that you just mentioned. Biden supporters would probably say, "Wwait, look, he did just try to forgive student loans in a meaningful way, got rejected by the Supreme Court on abortion rights. It's the Democratic-party-run states that are securing abortion rights for the people in their states, even for women from other states who might want to come and travel if they have the means.

On not being afraid of the spoiler question, as you said, I don't know if you were paying attention yet in 2020, but of course, a lot of people will raise the Ralph Nader spoiler question, and look what it gave the country. They would say, George Bush instead of Al Gore, instead of somebody who was very climate focused as Gore was, somebody who may not have given us the Iraq war like Bush did. The difference between the two parties still matter. What would you say to any of that?

Julian: I think you're referencing the 2000 election-

Brian Lehrer: Correct.

Julian: -which is probably when I was probably becoming more politically aware as a young person. Again, with the student loans, from what I saw looking at the politics around that, it wasn't Joe Biden trying to fulfill this campaign promise. He really had to be pushed. The Democratic party had to be pushed. Nancy Pelosi said that there wouldn't be any student loan forgiveness. They really had to be pushed because they felt themselves losing the young vote.

Again, knowing what we did about the Supreme Court and its makeup, they could have tried to push laws through that protected a women's right to choose before it got to the Dobbs decision. The idea of a spoiler, it's really interesting. Again, the Supreme Court is such a focus these days, but we look at the 2000 election. If folks in Florida weren't voting for Ralph Nader or vice versa, would Al Gore have won?

I think that's a very interesting hypothetical. Again, if in this country we actually had a true liberal party, one that was like Cornel West is saying, fighting for the working class, fighting for people, standing in the gap as far as I'm concerned. If the Democratic Party was that party, I don't think they really would have to worry about spoilers of that election. The fact is that they have doubled down on corporate interests, policing, militarization, all these different things. I think that the writing is on the wall for them in 2024.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you a hypothetical. You're calling from Manhattan, so I'll assume you live in New York, which is almost certainly going to be a safe blue state for Biden next year. If you lived in a swing state and Trump was on the ballot again against Biden, is the difference between the two of them narrow enough that you would vote for Cornel West if you lived in a swing state?

Julian: That's a really good question. Again, I'm calling from New York. I have friends who stay registered in other states who are from New York. For that very reason, they feel like their vote counts more. I think what I'm struggling with is, is the difference drastic enough? I think at this point in time, it isn't for me. That's why the Democrats really need to wise up because yes [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: That's why you were willing to make this call. Julian, thank you. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much. We won't have time to take a lot of calls like that with our guest who is Eric Blanc, Labor Studies professor at Rutgers, and a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. You heard Julian there and a lot of people were probably cringing when he said not a big enough difference between Biden and Trump, to not vote for Cornel West. Even if he lived in a swing state, other people might make that decision.

I'll just say that there are other people on the board with whom we could have a very similar conversation to the one that we just had. I kept Julian on for a long time, so he's going to represent really a number of people who are on the board who I think would be saying similar things, making similar arguments. Professor Blanc, you wrote in 2020 that because Trump is Trump, that you were abandoning your usual position of supporting the third-party candidates, the progressives, the Democratic socialists in 2020 because so much was at stake, should hold their nose and vote for Joe Biden. Why was 2020 so different for you, and do you feel the same for 2024?

Eric Blanc: Yes. I don't think, first of all, it's true that there isn't enough of a difference to merit voting for even a corporate Democrat like Joe Biden versus the Republicans. The Biden administration has not been consistent friend of working people by any means, but there have been some steps forward in part because you can pressure Democrats more than you can pressure Republicans. You can go on the offensive when the Democrats are in power where in contrast, when the Republicans are in power, you're going to spend all of your time as less these working people fighting rear guard actions against the crazy reactionary things they try to push.

Generally speaking, getting even a corporate Democrat into power is going to allow our side even when we have to fight more effectively. The Biden administration has done a few things that are worth noting. They had pointed a good national labor relations board, which has played a role in allowing some of the unionization upsurge that we've seen. At the same time, they refused to denounce the union busting, the very illegal union busting, most notably at Starbucks, where you've had over 100 workers fired. I understand the anger.

I think the anger of the Democratic Party establishment is legitimate. The question is, how can you most effectively channel that anger? I would argue that the most effective way of channeling that anger is not through marginal, symbolic third-party votes that don't actually build mass organization, but it's by running viable campaigns that can speak to millions, and that can build organizations.

The way you challenge the Democratic Party establishment, the Democratic Party, in my opinion, is less just about making the point known, saying the right thing. It's primarily about building power. It's about building independent organizations. It's about building mass movements. The question is, can you do that more effectively by running in the Green Party or running as an insurgent within the Democratic Party primary? I think the overwhelming evidence points to the latter.

Brian Lehrer: Is there an argument to be made that you all in the Democratic Socialists of America and other people in certain wings of the progressive left have done more to hurt Democrats in the last few years in elections than to help them? I don't mean by running as third-party candidates, but having Democratic candidates associated with some of the views of progressives in this country that may be unpopular in too much of the electorate, particularly the defund the police movement.

You're a professor at Rutgers. You're a member of the New York City Democrats, the Democratic Socialists of America so surely you saw what happened in the New York suburbs where largely because of what was perceived to be Democratic party positions on crime, Republicans flipped enough congressional seats to basically flip the House to GOP control. Is the left going too far? Should we be having a whole different conversation which we'll have on other day's shows, but we're asking today is Biden going far enough to be worth the votes of people on the left? Is the progressive left going too far in a way that hurts the Democratic Party?

Eric Blanc: The short version is no, which is to say the Democratic Party has been bleeding working-class voters for decades now by refusing to side with them and meeting their basic material needs. We're talking about healthcare crisis, we're talking about growing inequality. The fundamental message of the insurgent left in the United States is that you need a politics that breaks with corporate America and that provides for the basic human needs of the vast majority of population.

That is a message that is overwhelmingly supported across the board. The idea that the left is having only marginal fringe policies that don't have popular sports, it's just not true. There's a separate debate you can have over defund, but that's actually an anomaly. The overwhelming data support, and there's a lot of recent polls that show that working-class voters have a much more propensity to vote for a program that's similar to a Democratic socialist program compared to the neoliberal corporate Democrats because it's understandable.

If you want jobs, if you want good paying jobs, if you want health care, you want the right to housing, these are things that are popular, even with Republicans. The problem is the Democratic Party has refused to go far enough, and really go far at all on these issues, because of their ties to the corporate elite. I think that our message is the only message that actually is going to be able to win a majority away from the Republican Party and create a dynamic in which you can extricate ourselves from the crisis of climate change and the crisis of democratic institutions in the US, which is fueled by the Republicans and the Democrats in action.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think happened in the New York suburbs or the way to win back those districts next year?

Eric Blanc: I do think that the demand of defund at least as was popularly perceived, was unpopular and that it makes sense to talk about how to deal with crime in a different way than that slogan did. You can look, for instance, to how Brandon Johnson in Chicago, talked about providing social services, providing the material needs that working-class people need to address the root causes of crime. I think that popular positive vision-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: He's the new mayor there.

Eric Blanc: The new mayor, yes. This is a perfect example of labor and the left electing very forthright, progressive, to power. It shows that I think that you can make a very similar and content message, which is that we should be putting more funding towards the things that would prevent crime from being the very real problem that it is. You can explain that in a positive way. I don't think the defund slogan, as a slogan did that. That definitely created a dynamic that the right wing was able to use. I think we should learn the lessons on that, but I'm not sure the content accurate of what we're saying is going too far. I would actually argue that it's not going far enough at the Democratic Party as a whole.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, just as we run out of time, Cornel West is running in the Green Party. Does he even have that nomination locked down or might there be a Green Party primary for the presidential nomination? I see that he's got Jill Stein, who a lot of people knew as the Green Party candidate a few circles ago, working as his campaign manager or helping to run his campaign.

Eric Blanc: Yes. My understanding is that he's still running to be the candidate for the Green Party. My hope is that if Cornel West or his supporters are listening that he rethink and decides not too late to run for the Democratic Party primary and I think that that would be a better choice, but my understanding is it's very much still up in the air what will happen. I take some hope from that open-endedness.

Brian Lehrer: Rutgers professor of Labor Studies, Eric Blanc, he, among other things, has a forthcoming book called DIY Unionism: How Bottom-Up Organizing, Digital Tools, and Young, Risk-Taking Leaders Are Revitalizing Labor. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate the conversation.

Eric Blanc: Thanks so much for having me on.

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