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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. While you've been hearing the big news in New York City that broke yesterday afternoon, New York City Police Commissioner, Keechant Sewell, has resigned, reportedly because of being second-guessed too many times by Mayor Adams, like on hirings, promotions, and whether to discipline a top NYPD official who was found to have engaged in misconduct.

Reportedly, she wanted to discipline him. The mayor overruled it. Here's Adams before the resignation, but I think, knowing it was coming, defending getting involved, as he does, in personnel decisions.

New York City Mayor Eric Adams: Once a week, I have hire reviews, because I have the role as the Mayor to make sure I get to talent, the diversity--

Brian Lehrer: He went on from there, Mayor Adams, there. He is also in some degree of conflict right now, with the city's comptroller, Brad Lander, who the mayor criticized for being the loudest person in the city the other day. We'll play that clip later, which even includes Adams mocking Brad Lander's voice. Comptroller Lander is our first guest today, mostly to talk about several things he's involved with right now, including his recent refusal to register the controversial new Medicare managed care plan for city retirees, that the retirees hate.

I know, I hear you, I see you, retirees, we get so many phone calls on this. He's also, of course, gauging the city's economy, as he always does, as Comptroller, in light of trends like emptier office buildings, and much more. Here's some good economic news this morning, by the way, in case you haven't heard this yet, this just out, the May inflation number is out for the US. It's lower than expected, at around a 4% annual rate. With that, Comptroller Lander, always great to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Brad Lander: Thanks so much, Brian. Yes. It really is good to come on with that good inflation news, right off the wires.

Brian Lehrer: Well, do you want to talk about it at all? I know it's brand new. I don't know if you've gotten a chance to think about, a research, its implications for New York City, but anything off the top of your head?

Brad Lander: Yes, in New York City, inflation has run a little below the broader national inflation, through most of this, but what we really need to have happen is for inflation to come down into that more reasonable range. Now, the Feds' target is 2%, but 4% is so much better than the six and above, where we were. We don't want them to feel that they have to keep raising interest rates.

When they raise interest rates to combat inflation, that makes it harder for businesses to expand, and pushes people to lose jobs, not to be able to buy homes. Not everybody might watch all the key economic indicators, but it's critical for the health of the city, for sure.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's go on to another economic indicator for city retirees. This is one of the things that led us to call you in for today and give you this invitation, Medicare Advantage. We could take calls all day, as I was indicating in the intro, from retirees, from city jobs. Teachers, I see you, I hear you. They call in more than anybody, retired teachers, disgusted with the city and their unions, for agreeing to force them into a managed care form of Medicare. What does it mean that you declined to register the contract?

Brad Lander: Let me separate the specific procurement duty, the contract registration duty, and the comptroller's office from the broader issue, and talk briefly about both. The comptroller is assigned by the Charter the duty of registering city contracts, over 10,000 a year. We've got a team of people to look at each one. Their job is not-- Do we like the contract, what do we think about Medicare Advantage?

It's-- Were the proper procurement rules and processes followed, was it bid right, were the bid results treated fairly, and does the city have the legal authority to enter into the contract? On both of those grounds, we have concerns, there's a lawsuit, challenging the city's legal authority to enter into the contract. The same judge, Judge Frank, who, last year, rejected an earlier version, it's before him right now.

One thing we're saying to the Office of Labor Relations is, you got to get through that lawsuit first. You haven't certified that you have the legal authority while that lawsuit is pending. There was also an issue with the prior bitter EmblemHealth, and whether their bid had been fully satisfied. We declined to register, we essentially send it back to City Hall. Our recommendation is they wait and see what happens with the lawsuit, before moving forward.

That's on the specific procurement issues. We don't believe we can register it at this time. On the broader issues of Medicare Advantage, not only have I heard from so many seniors, but I have this dear friend and healthcare activist Adi Barkan, who's got ALS, who called my attention to a series of broader issues with Medicare Advantage. There was this really powerful story, very well researched in the New York Times.

Which showed that, as of last month, more than half of Medicare enrollees nationwide have been transferred to these private insurance plans, and that 9 of the 10 top insurers including CVS Health, which owns Aetna, have been found by the federal government to have engaged in over billing, upcoding, or denying people critical care. I think it's critical for Congress to really get a handle on what's going on, more broadly, with Medicare Advantage. I sure understand why retirees are fearful of it.

Brian Lehrer: When you say it's kind of a technical question, that falls to you, as comptroller, about whether to register it, that's about whether the contract was properly certified. I think I'm not using the exact term that you used. What does that mean? Even if the judge approves it, in the larger sense, rejects the lawsuit from those retirees who are bringing it, does that mean that you have an independent grounds on which to stop this?

Brad Lander: Well, not exactly. First, if the judge were to settle the lawsuit in a way that affirms that the city has the legal authority to enter into the contract, and the mayor, that would then send me the contract back for registration, we would review it again, because as I mentioned, there was one other issue with the prior bidder that has to be resolved as well, but if those issues are satisfied, then I'm obligated by the charter to register the contract.

Even if I have these grave concerns about Medicare Advantage, I'll perform my duty under the charter. There is a provision where the mayor, even if the comptroller declines to register a contract, can do what's called deeming it registered over the Comptroller's objection. I think first, we have to see what happens in court.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, we can take your phone calls for New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, on the city's economic outlook, the resignation of Keechant Sewell police commissioner, not technically, in his bailiwick as Comptroller, but he was the previous leader of the city council's Progressive Caucus. I know he had a lot to say about policing in the city at that time. The mayor calling Lander the loudest person in the city, we'll get to that clip.

Do you want him to tone it down? Deliveristas, which we'll talk about too, anything else relevant to the comptroller's job? 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692. Even on the May inflation rate, or the prospect of-- I don't know, defaults on loans by commercial real estate owners and implications for the banking system in New York, whatever you want to go to, that's relevant to the comptroller's job, 212-433 WNYC, or you can text a comment or a question to that same number, 212-433-9692.

I see you're quoted in The New York Times today, on something we'll be doing a separate segment on, later in the show. The Deliveristas' new, higher minimum wage, widely being reported as a historic victory for these underpaid essential workers, the delivers, who bring food and other things to people's doors, who had to keep going through the unhealthy smoke in the air last week, the pandemic, and everything else. I see you think this new wage actually falls short. Tell us.

Brad Lander: I'm so glad you're having [unintelligible 00:08:57] from workers justice project on, later, the organizing those Deliveristas have done through the pandemic, while continuing to bring food on a regular basis, but also, to call attention to their plight, has been nothing short of amazing. I was proud to be their ally. I'm the lead sponsor of the bill in 2021, Local Law 115. That requires the city, the Department of Consumer and worker protection, to establish a minimum pay rate.

I'm so glad they're getting a raise, but yes, I'm really upset, because-- I passed that law in October of 2021, it was supposed to go into effect on January 1st, 2023. What that announced, over the weekend, is six months late, and $3 short. The Department of Consumer Worker Protection actually promulgated a better rule in November. The apps pushed back, these multimillion-dollar apps did a ton of [unintelligible 00:09:51] lobbying at City Hall.

Then, DCWP, in March, instead of promulgating the rule, came out with a revised rule, which eventually cut workers' pay by $3 an hour, from an original proposal. It's deep in the regulatory weeds. That's how regulatory capture works. It involves this thing they call multi apping, and not showing the full extent that its independent contractors have to pay, of taxes and insurance. We calculated that, when you count for all the costs that Deliveristas have, as independent contractors, the average hourly wage they're going to get is $12.69 an hour.

That's a boost from what they're getting, and it's a pay raise, and they have done a remarkable job of organizing, but I believe, in this case, that the rule was watered down because of lobbying, and essentially, that the Adams administration caved, acquiesced to that lobbying.

Brian Lehrer: This is being overreported as a victory by the press, I imagine, you think, because it first got on my radar for the current news cycle by seeing the report the other day as, "Hey, great news. The Deliveristas' minimum wage is being raised from about $7 an hour to about $17 an hour." That number, 17, so you think that-- If that's the way I heard it, that was over-reported.

Brad Lander: Overreported. It's a win. It's the first time in the country Deliveristas are getting a raise, and they organized to make it happen. Again, as the lead sponsor of the law, I feel proud of it, but it's, by my analysis, a raise from $7 an hour to $13 an hour. That's a big raise, but it's still not the minimum wage.

Brian Lehrer: Is the premise there that this is the so-called tipped minimum wage, that you can pay certain kinds of workers below the otherwise official minimum wage in New York, because there's a presumption that they're going to get a certain amount in tips?

Brad Lander: Not exactly. These are independent contractors, [unintelligible 00:11:53] drivers, Uber and Lyft drivers, and Deliveristas, are not employees at all. I believe they should be. I believe state law should be changed, because they are workers. The apps are allowed to pay them as independent contractors on a per-trip basis. The law I passed said, "Okay, the Department of Consumer Worker Protection needs to do a calculation to make sure what they're being paid while they're on trips is enough to get them to at least the minimum wage for every hour.

Including the time they spend waiting for the next trip when they're not getting paid, and with the additional expenses they have as an independent contractor." None of that is required before this law. What Uber and Lyft, DoorDash, and Seamless have invented, is the ability to pay people with no standards, and that's what this law does, for the first time, that we did it for Uber and Lyft drivers a few years ago, and it's been very successful. In that sense, it's a win, and I'm proud of it, but again, six months late, and $3 short.

Brian Lehrer: What it really does is set a minimum payment for contractors under their contract with whatever restaurants, other stores, or whatever they're working with.

Brad Lander: With the apps themselves. Yes, that's right.

Brian Lehrer: With the apps. The apps, in particular. [crosstalk]

Brad Lander: This is with DoorDash, Seamless, or Uber Eats.

Brian Lehrer: Got it. All right. I probably made this happen, the way I talked about Medicare Advantage and our caller's response, but we have a new number of callers,-

Brad Lander: [crosstalk] I think they were listening anyway.

Brian Lehrer: -who want to talk about that, we're not going to focus on that, the whole segment, but we will take Donald, in Brooklyn, and maybe one other, to represent the group. Donald, you're on WNYC, with Comptroller Brad Lander. Hi, Donald.

Donald: Hi. I'd like to ask Comptroller Brad Lander-- Originally the mayor's proposal had an option to retain the original Medicare program if we paid $200 a month approximately, which would be the amount that the city would save, and it would be a wash for the city. Now, 45,000 of the 250 retirees indicated that they wanted to hop out of the advantage plan and were willing to pay the amount.

It requires a city council action, though, to permit us to pay, since the current local law prevents the city from charging us anything. The city council has not acted, because the group representing the majority of the retirees are going for all or nothing, and I just wondered if the Comptroller believes that at the end of the day, we may retain that option to pay. I'm undergoing cancer treatment, and it's critical for me that I stay in the original Medicare program, to have all my providers cover it.

Brian Lehrer: Donald, of course, I'm very sorry to hear about your cancer, and I think it's courageous of you to call in. You gave such a clear description there, for people who may not be familiar with this issue about some of the negotiating points, including that there was discussion of individuals being able to buy their way back into traditional Medicare by paying the difference to the city.

Could you go one more step and talk about what you think you would lose, if you, as a cancer patient, gets switched into Medicare Advantage? Are you going to lose access to certain doctors, a certain hospital, or anything specific?

Donald: That's exactly right. At least one of my doctors would not participate in it. To get through all this, appeal, and go, all of that, is beyond what I really feel I have the capacity to do at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Donald, thank you very much. Courageous, as I said. Talk to Donald, then everybody.

Brad Lander: Yes, Donald, thank you for your call. Obviously, we're all wishing for your health, and you're right in everything you said. Like a lot of people I've talked to, you've learned a lot about this, people have to, about their healthcare. One thing I will point out is that folks do have until June 30th, under the city's proposal, to stay in the current plan before the new Aetna contract goes into effect, so talk to your-- You've got information. Some people are considering opting out before June 30th.

It's hard to know whether to do that, without clarity on what's happening, without the lawsuit being resolved. There is a provision in the Aetna contract that would allow what Donald describes, and what was in the original plan, which is for retirees to come out of their own pocket, a couple hundred dollars a month, potentially, and pay the difference for more traditional Medicare, but he's right that the judge last year ruled that the city can't do that under the current law.

If things go forward as they're proposed, if the judge says that they can enter into the contract, the council would have to amend the law to allow that provision of the contract to be in effect.

Brian Lehrer: Donald, again, thank you for your call. Good luck, and keep us posted, if you want to, about your access to doctors in this context. We've had city council members on, who I've asked about this topic, and they always shunted aside as, "This isn't really our role. That's between the mayor and the unions. It's an executive branch function, and so there's not much we can do here."

Donald brings up, and you confirm, that there is a specific thing that, at least in theory, city council can do, which is pass a law to enable paying by individuals of the difference, so they can stay in traditional Medicare. Are you calling on them to do that?

Brad Lander: That came out of the lawsuit a year ago, when the EmblemHealth Contract Medicare Advantage contract was up. The judge made the ruling that took that option out. After that, for a range of other reasons, Emblem withdrew their bid, and the city then went to Aetna, and now, that contract is before the judge. I think it's worth seeing what happens with the lawsuit first.

If it winds up moving forward as proposed, and the judge says the city does have the authority, or the mayor overrules my declination to register, then I definitely think it's worth the council picking back up this question and creating more options. It also might not have to be all or nothing, maybe rather than $200 a month, there would be a way for the city to defray the cost, especially for low-income folks. Obviously, not everyone here is on a fixed income.

Brian Lehrer: Simon, in Park Slope, has a question relating to the Deliveristas' pay. Simon, you're on WNYC, with Comptroller Brad Lander. Hi, there. Do we have Simon, in Park Slope?

Simon: Thank you very much for hearing my question. I was wondering about the "negotiation" between Mayor Adams and the MLC. That negotiation-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: That's the Municipal Labor Council, which represents many unions of city workers.

Simon: Yes. That's the beginning negotiation. Brad Lander referred to the next part of this, which was the negotiation with Aetna, to get more benefits for the city. Before that, there was a "negotiation" with the MLC. This negotiation strikes me as illegal, because the two strongest members of the MLC, which are the UFT and district 37, agreed with the mayor. Basically, those two union leaders and the mayor, a gang of three, sat down and agreed to a result.

Brian Lehrer: I want to apologize to the listeners, I misunderstood. I thought you were calling about the Deliveristas' contract, you're also calling about Medicare Advantage, but to Simon's point, Mr. Comptroller, I imagine that the mayor and union leaders are allowed to agree on a contractual provision. I think the union leaders would say they got something for it as well. I've heard Michael Mulgrew, from the Teachers Union, talk about this, or at least described as-- They got a raise.

I think some of the retired teachers think that their interests got traded off by the union for the interests of the current teachers. Nevertheless, a union leader and a mayor are allowed to negotiate and agree on something.

Brad Lander: Not only is it appropriate for the mayor and the union leaders to negotiate, it's because of union organizing and negotiating that retirees have this healthcare coverage, that's better than what you would get. Most retirees don't keep their employer providing additional benefits in healthcare coverage on whatever happens here--

Brian Lehrer: For the rest of their lives. Even the Medicare Advantage, compared to what private sector workers get, for the most part, is pretty good.

Brad Lander: Correct. This is a big benefit that unions have won for workers. Those union leaders have the job to represent all of their members, active and retirees. They've been raising their voices, for example, on hospital overpricing. Actually, the council just passed some legislation to provide more transparency into the ways that private hospitals, they believe, are charging the city, and many others, too much.

I understand why people are not happy with the results, and believe me, I've heard it, and again, I share many of the broader concerns about Medicare Advantage and the possible declination of coverage, but it's appropriate of union leadership to negotiate that with the mayor. Again, the unions here are the reason that retirees get good coverage.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute, with Comptroller Brad Lander. We'll play that clip as soon as we come back, of Mayor Adams calling him the loudest person in the city. Get ready to cringe. We have some other issues to raise, including people facing eviction, not being provided with the lawyers that the law requires, and some other things. We'll get the Comptroller's takeout when we come back, as well on the resignation of Police Commissioner Sewell, and more of your calls and texts. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer, on WNYC, with the New York City Comptroller, Brad Lander. Remember, the comptroller is one of three citywide elected officials. They're just three. There's the mayor, who every voter in New York City votes for, there's the Comptroller, which every voter in New York City can vote for, and there's the public advocate. Everybody else is a more local official. The city council speaker only represents one district, and then is elected speaker by the other members of the council.

Obviously, the borough presidents represent the voters in the particular borough. The Comptroller's an important position, one of just three citywide elected officials officially overseeing the city's finances, but also with the ability to audit and otherwise speak about many city functions, but sometimes, the mayor doesn't like what he says. The mayor went after the Comptroller the other day, about as harshly and sarcastically as I can remember him going after anyone since being elected. Here's 45 seconds of it.

New York City Mayor Eric Adams: Brad Lander, the loudest person in the city, [chuckles] has yet to go to Washington to deal with the number one issue that this city facing. Think about that for a moment. The loudest-- "I think Eric should--" The loudest person in the city has yet to go to Washington, DC. How many times? Think about it. Think about it. Do I have to ask the Comptroller that must have our financial stability, should I be asking the Comptroller that determines our financial stability, that--

"Hey, Brad, how about going to Washington, and tell them we should get our share?" The loudest person.

Brian Lehrer: What the mayor was talking about there was Lander not going to Washington personally to lobby for more money to help with all the asylum seekers coming to New York City. We'll talk about the substance and we'll talk about the style, Comptroller Lander. First of all, did he do your voice well, and do you want to do his?

Brad Lander: I'm definitely not going to do impressions. I try-- Look, the charter assigns the Comptroller the job of oversight of the mayor and his agencies. When you think we're not getting the competent government that we need, it's my job to be loud. That's what the job is. Last week, I thought we didn't get the response to the air quality event caused by those wildfires. We weren't ready, didn't have a plan in place, didn't move quickly enough to give people guidance.

The public advocate and I were out at Rikers Island, where there's a humanitarian emergency, and we don't think the City Department of Correction and Management is getting the job done with competence and humanity. I'm loud about those things, but I try to keep it respectful. I would not mock or do an impression of someone else. I don't think it's valuable to either really respond or to stoop to disrespect.

Brian Lehrer: We talked on the show about the Federal Monitor's report on Rikers continuing to be just really horrible deaths and dysfunction, and people in obvious medical distress being ignored. All those details of the Federal Monitor's report. What was your take, that you're saying led the mayor not to like how you talked?

Brad Lander: That report was harrowing, and obviously, the mayor's also criticized the federally appointed monitor for doing his job, as well. JJumaane and I went, last Wednesday, out to Rikers, saw the detention cell where an 86-year-old man, who was bleeding, was in sepsis, and everyone knew shouldn't be there, and needed to be at a hospital, was kept for 24 hours and died later as a result. We saw people shackled to their chair by wrist and ankle, on the time they're supposed to be able to be out of their cells.

A lot of ways in which they're not complying with the Board of Correction, but really, the worst of all, what got me out there, was this announcement that the Department of Correction is not going to report deaths in custody. If you not only can't keep people in your custody alive, but you won't even publicly report when they die on your watch, that's the system that is not getting the job done. That's why I do support the appointment of a federal receiver.

Don't take that lightly, but there's a court hearing today, in front of Judge Swain, and I really hope something will move forward there.

Brian Lehrer: Federal receiver, in other words, there wouldn't just be a monitor assessing conditions at Rikers, the city would actually lose authority over the jail, and the federal government would take it over, right?

Brad Lander: Yes. Correction workers would stay in place, but they would report to and be governed and supervised by a federally appointed receiver. That's a big deal, I don't take it lightly. That's not just this administration. Rikers has been a humanitarian emergency now, for years. The Monitor was appointed in 2014, but not only have things not gotten better, and so many cases have gotten worse.

Brian Lehrer: On not reporting deaths that happened at Rikers, I actually hadn't heard that before, so I'm going to ask you to elaborate. What I had heard, what we talked about on the show, was that it seemed that there were some people who were terminally ill, who were moved out of Rikers into other medical facilities so that it wouldn't be perceived that they died at Rikers, and they didn't have to be counted that way.

You're saying something more than that, that even people who die at the jail, they don't have to count that number and report it to the public.

Brad Lander: Well, that's what the city hall raised last week, and this comes from a city hall statement that says, "We don't have to give the information on deaths in custody to the monitor." They didn't promulgate a new policy, and we don't know whether anyone has died since they said that. Casting doubt on whether they're going to, and they have not been giving full information to the Board of Correction, either.

The Board of Correction's an oversight body that's supposed to review every death in custody, but earlier this year, the Department of Corrections stopped sharing video information freely with the Board of Corrections. I hope that was just a statement out of City Hall, and not new policy. Obviously, reporting deaths in custody is one of the numbers you most need to know, obviously, the most ultimate numbers. We'll see what happens, but that was a statement that city hall made after the monitor's most recent--

Well, not most recent report, because now, he's put out a new one, but a report last week came out.

Brian Lehrer: The issue that the mayor was raising in the clip, I guess, he was trying to say, "Don't look here, where the Controller is pointing, look over there," but the issue he was saying that you're falling short on, is the financial implications to the city of so many asylum seekers coming all at once, and that you haven't gone personally to Washington, to lobby for more help. How do you respond to that?

Brad Lander: Well, first, it really did sound, to me, like he was just trying to get me out of town on a day when people were asking questions about the response to the air quality crisis. That's really what was going on that day, that I think it was-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: It would have been a good day to be out of town, but that's another story.

Brad Lander: Yes, I guess right. Look, on asylum seekers, this is where-- First, I have spent a lot of time in dialogue with Senator Schumer, leader Jeffries, and other folks in the administration, pushing for more of our share of resources, we absolutely need them. We need more help from the state. One other thing I've been critical of is, rather than going into court to try to overturn the right to shelter, I recommend we go into court to say, "If it's in the state constitution, it should apply statewide."

That means other counties and municipalities also have to help meet the right to shelter, and then we would have to get a lot more help from the state government as well. That would be a lot better way of meeting our obligations, but spreading out the cost and the logistics of doing so. Then, one thing I really hope City Hall will focus on, and probably the thing I've been loudest about, is the city's failure to focus on providing the supports that help people move out of shelter.

People have to file their asylum application by a year after the date they arrive. If they do, they could get work authorization six months later, even if the case on their asylum hearing is not for several years later. We aren't providing people with legal services or supports to file those applications, and so the vast majority-- A new report says 97% of the people who want to don't have a lawyer, and haven't filed their asylum applications. That's just short-sighted.

We're recommending to provide some additional money, $70 million, to be-- We think that'll save a lot of money in the long term, because if we can help them file their asylum applications and get work authorization, they're much more likely to be able to move out of shelter. We've done almost none of that so far. Yes, that's one other thing I'm loud about. The job, as I understand it, is to push loudly for both competent and compassionate government.

Brian Lehrer: He's loud. He's proud. He is the New York City Comptroller, Brad Lander. Akhisa, in Manhattan, you're on, with Comptroller Lander, on WNYC. Hello.

Akhisa: Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I just had a general question that you probably can't answer, but I'm going to ask nonetheless. I don't understand why the mayor hasn't done any significant press. He does grandstanding on a podium, but the NYPD Commissioner has resigned. A prominent Black woman has left, it sounds like, due to undue pressure. The mayor needs to be accountable to the press.

This constant podium grandstanding is not an actual interview. I don't know what happened with Fridays with the Mayor you used to have on your show, and then suddenly, it was gone. I would just make a plea, he needs to talk to the press. That's it.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Mayor de Blasio did accept our invitation to do weekly. Mayor Adams declined. It's not his style, apparently, to do this kind of thing. Similarly, Mayor de Blasio was doing Mondays with the Mayor on Inside City Hall, with Errol Louis, on NY1, and Mayor Adams isn't doing that either. For whatever reason, these kinds of weekly appearances on interview shows, like Errol's and mine, are not the way the mayor wants to interact with the press or get his message out to the public. That's his right.

Comptroller Lander, it is unusual that the mayor has not made a statement on the resignation of such a prominent official as the Police Commissioner. I think in the past, when police commissioners have left, the mayors have talked about it right away.

Brad Lander: I think he did make a statement yesterday, thanking her for her service, but I take the point-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Just a written statement, I believe.

Brad Lander: Oh, I see. Look, I really take the point here, that the questions that are raised are important. Look, Keechant Sewell, I thought, had really earned the trust and confidence of quite a lot of people, including, as I've talked to officers, they really saw her as someone who had their backs. She made that powerful speech at the funeral when those officers were killed last year, and officers have really seen her as having their back.

The fact that she was also willing to hold top brass accountable for interfering in an investigation, at least as is reported, and was overruled there, it's distressing. This is someone who really looked like she was standing up for her people, but also having some measures of appropriate accountability, and I do think those questions need to be answered, in addition to that more formal statement, thanking her for her service.

Brian Lehrer: The mayor does have some events on his public schedule for today, that gets published. We see it, along with other news organizations. No press, per se, it's things like-- Delivers remarks at the East River Academy's graduation, things like that. Sometimes, at those things, reporters get to ask questions. We'll see if he talks about the reasons, as he sees it, for Commissioner Sewell's departure.

Before you go, and we're almost out of time, I do want to get to at least one other issue with you, and that is you speaking out recently, on the fact that there are a lot more evictions in New York City than there were during the height of the pandemic, now that the moratorium on evictions has expired. There is a law in New York, that if you're a tenant, in housing court, you have the right to a lawyer, but you described that not happening. What do you see?

Brad Lander: Yes. About 10 years ago, the city council passed what's called right to counsel, a historic achievement. It really has been very effective, when most tenants, without a lawyer-- When they're facing eviction, this is low-income tenants, or who are facing eviction, we don't let a defendant in a criminal case face prosecution without a lawyer, those lawyers made an enormous difference.

We saw about a 40% drop in evictions, and a lot of times, that works for the landlord as well, because those lawyers know how to access subsidies, like what's called a one-shot deal, to help pay back arrears. During the pandemic, along with a lot of other challenges, it's been harder and harder to provide the lawyers. Now, in 70%, of cases, and we estimate it's now about 25,000 New Yorkers who are facing eviction proceedings without a lawyer.

Of course, they're much more likely to get evicted from their homes. We've already got homelessness at record highs. What we're recommending is that the state courts slow down the calendaring of those hearings until the city can meet its obligation to provide that lawyer in court for people.

Brian Lehrer: Who's that up to? Is that just voluntary on the part of the New York State court system? I saw you under-- You were on NY1 last night, with Errol Louis, and I saw you make the analogy, that in criminal court, where Americans also have the right to defense, if you're too poor to hire a lawyer, you get a public defender, and it's unimaginable to think that some defendant in a criminal trial would be in court without a lawyer.

Here we are, in a situation where low-income tenants who were facing eviction and housing court, they let those cases go forward, even though the legal promise of representation is not being fulfilled. It's unbelievable, when you put it in that comparative way. Who's this up to?

Brad Lander: Yes. In this case, it is voluntary, at the state level, in criminal court, that's a federal constitutional right, but here, it's a city law. The city law says the city will provide counsel to everyone. The city is not proving able to do that, because of the challenge of just hiring up and up, and providing enough lawyers through our legal services partners, and other organizations. It's not an obligation of the state court. It's not a state law.

I guess the state law could be passed, but for now, it would be a voluntary act of the New York State Office of Court Administration to slow down calendaring until, and as the city picks up the pace. There is an RFP out, to get more lawyers and provide that counsel, but yes, you put it really well. We wouldn't let someone be put in jail without a lawyer, but letting be someone be evicted without a lawyer-- The landlord's always got a lawyer. It makes a huge difference when the tenant has one.

At this moment, that's not only for those individual tenants, that's for our city, as well. Our shelters are bursting at the seams, twice as large as they were a year ago. This is not a time to allow more people to be evicted into homelessness. Let's slow that docket down, and get those lawyers in the courtrooms.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Comptroller Brad Lander, thank you so much.

Brad Lander: Great to be with you, Brian. Thanks so much.

 

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