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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Are New York and New Jersey becoming more coronavirus positive again? One thing's for sure, we are becoming more coronavirus nervous again, but the latest headlines tell a mixed story. Today's coronavirus headlines on Gothamist are these: New York's Positivity Rate Goes Down, But Hospitalizations Rise. If that sounds confusing, we'll explain in a minute. Coronavirus cases are up 15% nationwide. Another headline that has a relationship to this area. Borough Park Synagogue With COVID-Positive Rabbi Still Holding Large Indoor Prayer Services, Despite $15,000 Fine. By the way, something very similar happened in Israel the other day. It's not getting much press here, but we'll look at the parallels and why they matter. Back to Gothamist, Police Arrest Heshy Tischler As His Backers Swarm Home Of The Jewish Journalist He Targeted. Listeners, we will talk to that Brooklyn-based journalist, Jacob Kornbluh from the Jewish Insider, coming up in this segment. First to that lead Gothamist headline, New York's Positivity Rate Goes Down, But Hospitalizations Rise. With me now is Gothamist senior editor, Elizabeth Kim, who posts regular updates on coronavirus in our area. Hi, Liz. Thanks for coming back on the show.

Elizabeth Kim: Hi, Brian. Good morning.

Brian: Can you flash that out a little bit, or flesh out each of those a little bit, hospitalizations are rising even as the percentage of new tests coming back positive is going down?

Elizabeth: What I can say is that hospitalizations along with the positivity rate, which is the percentage of people testing positive are the two main indicators that public health officials watch. It's a little bit confusing because hospitalizations tends to be thought of as a lagging indicator. The positivity rate has been on the rise last week, so it could be that these were people who were testing positive and then found themselves getting sick and having to go to the hospital. I have to say, it's still not entirely clear because these numbers also bounce around a fair bit. It's not like there's been one day after another, a steady increase. On some days, you'll see that it goes up and on other days, you'll see that it goes down. That's certainly the case when you look at local data in New York City. If you go to New York City's coronavirus data page, you'll see that that hospitalization number has been just bouncing up and down and it's not really clear. Is this a serious trend? Obviously, the other number we're looking in conjunction with that is the positivity rate. For that, we've still been staying, like the governor stated statewide, it's still been around 1% here locally. It's still around 1.5%. Definitely, two numbers that we're looking at though.

Brian: Here is Governor Cuomo yesterday being reassuring about New York compared to the nation as a whole.

Governor Cuomo: Nationwide, those numbers are better than many states. Only relative to New York do we consider it a microcluster. Only when you're at 1% does 3% seem like an issue. Most of these other states would celebrate if they had 3%.

Brian: Fair enough, Liz, before we get people too concerned about where New York is headed, although I should say, the governor says most of these other states would celebrate if they had 3%. Some New York City neighborhoods, some Rockland and Orange County neighborhoods have much more than 3%.

Elizabeth: Right. That's what's alarming is that it can go from 3%, to 8%, to 20% on a given day very quickly, and he himself has read out those numbers. Like in Rockland County, for instance, where it did soar into the 20s. I think that that's the concern, and especially in New York City, given the density, given the fact that people travel quite a bit for work, for school, that these percentages, while they're small, relative to the rest of the country, they can easily very quickly pick up and become out of control.

Brian: Before we bring on Borough Park journalist Jacob Kornbluh, on Friday, you wrote a story on Gothamist about hospitalizations and cases soaring in New Jersey. That was a few days ago now, but do New York and New Jersey seemed to be moving together or in different directions?

Elizabeth: The common thread between New York and New Jersey is that in New Jersey, a lot of the cases are in this township called Lakewood, where there's a significant Orthodox community. That's been the common thread in New York between these suburban communities and Rockland, and also in South Brooklyn. That's been one trend that we've been watching is the infection soaring within the Orthodox community. It's interesting to compare and contrast how the local governments, and state governments have responded to the rise in infections in this particular community.

Brian: I saw last week, a 28% positive test result rate in the Lakewood area, which, as you said, does have a similar Hasidic population to some of the parts of Brooklyn, and Rockland, and Orange, and Queens that we've been talking about. Mayor de Blasio on NY1 last night said things have already started to head back down in New York after all the publicity in the last week or two and he said this about this week.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: With luck Errol, this week will be decisive in all of our favor. Remember, as soon as the following week, by the end of the following week, we might be able to get things back to where we were when we started September.

Brian: There you go, Mayor de Blasio last night. One more de Blasio clip, and then we'll add Jacob Kornbluh to this conversation. The city has begun more aggressively handing out tickets to individuals and fines to businesses that defy the so-called Red Zone Rules, where the clusters have been most concentrated. On NY1 last night, in that same interview with their anchor Errol Louis, Mayor de Blasio was asked why they're enforcing against large outdoor protests against the rules when they didn't enforce against the big Black Lives Matter protest this summer that were also outdoors? Here's the mayor.

Mayor de Blasio: It's a different situation. We've been through different realities in this crisis, but this is the first time we've had a resurgence. One of the things I feel strongly is we cannot let this resurgence grow into a full-blown second wave for New York City. There does not need to be a second wave for all of New York City. If we stop it now, in the parts of Brooklyn and Queens where we're having issues, we can keep the city on a good track.

Brian: Liz Kim from Gothamist, that's interesting. For whatever reasons, the prevalence of coronavirus kept going down during the racial protest this summer. That's a fact. Now, it's going up. Why the difference? What's the relationship to outdoor gatherings? I'm still not convinced there is one.

Elizabeth: It's not entirely clear that it is due to outdoor gatherings, because like you said, during the summer there were mass protests. I think that one important difference is that yes, it was the summer. A lot of the participants during the protest, although not all, were wearing masks. The difference now I think is the fear that there are more indoor gatherings, and that people are perhaps not wearing masks. That's been reported on Gothamist as well. That is the major difference is that now, we're heading into worse, and then also schools have reopened. When I say schools, I don't just mean public schools, but also private schools and yeshivas. It's all of that, and then you can add to that indoor dining, which also may be a factor here.

Brian: On that, now we bring in Jacob Kornbluh, national politics reporter based in Borough Park for the Jewish Insider. Now, to remind you of what happened to him in recent days, listeners. Here's how that story appeared yesterday in the Times of Israel, "A rabble of angry ultra-orthodox protesters gathered in the early hours of Monday morning yesterday, outside the home of an ultra-orthodox journalist hours after the arrest of Heshy Tischler, a leader of the Brooklyn anti-lockdown protests, accused of inciting a riot against the reporter. Jacob Kornbluh, a Borough Park resident has reported on rising coronavirus infection rates in ultra-orthodox areas of New York, and the behaviors, including relatively infrequent mask-wearing, that may be fueling the rise." Again, that from the Times of Israel. There are obviously stories in the American press too, but I think it's interesting to see that the Israeli press is reporting on it very similarly. Jacob Kornbluh from the Jewish Insider joins us now, Jacob, thanks for coming on this morning in what I'm sure is both a busy and high anxiety time for you. Welcome to WNYC.

Jacob Kornbluh: Good morning, Brian. It's good to be on your show.

Brian: For context for our listeners who aren't familiar. What is the news organization you work for, The Jewish Insider, what does it cover, and who are its primary readers?

Jacob: We are a national publication that primarily focuses on the news with a Jewish angle if it's local, national, or abroad. Our prime readership is those who care very much for the issues pertaining to the Jewish community and Israel, but obviously, we are a national publication and we welcome everyone to read about all the races we cover, and the national news that is in the headlines on mainstream and media.

Brian: What did you document originally, just talk about your own reporting, that made you such a lightning rod?

Jacob: In recent months, obviously, I've been very active in actually serving as a medium of providing accurate information, data, and dismissing the myth of coronavirus, being a hoax, mainly during the outbreak in late March and April, when the virus was hitting the Orthodox community very hard. I read reports on a daily basis, where there were 20 or 30 funerals a day. It really underlined the fact that the community was not aware so much about how severe this virus is, but also how to take the most simple measures to actually bring down the infection rate. Unfortunately, it took a good two months for the city itself to get the infection rate down. We saw in the summer that it was close and under 1% citywide. At that point, people were arguing that showed immunity, that the virus has traveled from New York to other states, and therefore we can resume our lifestyle, our traditional practices, back to normal. That is where I was, number one, just reporting the facts and the data given by the government, but also advocating for just shifting a little towards practicing those social distancing guidelines because there might be an uptick, and because this is not over. First of all, in solidarity with other people who are actually sick, and contracting the virus, but also because it can come back to hit us hard, and as we have seen in recent weeks, there is an uptick in these neighborhoods. I don't believe that this is a hoax. I don't believe that science doesn't exist, and so that is where I became the middleman where I was hit for being the informer, explaining the community's tradition, but also advocating for those simple guidelines.

Brian: You're a national politics reporter for Jewish Insider. To what degree, covering national politics as you do, do you see support for Donald Trump in Hasidic New York and New Jersey and just believing the President of the United States, or following his lead when he disses mask-wearing and social distancing or has big crowds defy those safety guidelines at his own events and rallies? How much is that related to what you're reporting on in your own neighborhood in Brooklyn?

Jacob: That's a big factor in how the community sees the response to the virus. Obviously, they, not only follow President Trump and have become engaged in recent years in the political process, but also they support him, and when they see the president engaging in a diversity of rhetoric, when they see that the president dismisses this as a Democratic hoax, and who is right now, at the helm of government in New York? It's only Democrats. There's this distrust in government. At the federal level, it's Donald Trump himself saying that he doesn't trust his own science and his own government, and on a local level, it's the Democrats trying to declare a war on religion. I believe that number one, following Trump's lead, in saying, "This is not serious, and if you actually got the virus, that you can beat it. Look at me, I'm 74 years old, and I beat it. So what? People get sick, let them take the treatment and the cure." I believe that that is an underlying fact in why some people don't take it seriously.

Brian: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Elizabeth Kim, from Gothamist, reporting on the coronavirus in New York, and Jacob Kornbluh from The Jewish Insider reporting on the coronavirus in New York. 646-435-7280, if you have any questions, 646-435-7280. Jacob, let me follow up on the story you just told with this question. Are people who are skeptical in Borough Park and other Hasidic neighborhoods or area that you report on, aware of how much the same thing is going on in Israel? I mentioned earlier the story in Gothamist about a crowd congregating in a Brooklyn synagogue with a currently COVID-positive Rabbi and despite a $15,000 fine, and now here's a story that I cited on the show the other day. I'll read this again, from the Associated Press from Tel Aviv and it says, "After a revered ultra-orthodox rabbi died this week from COVID-19, Israeli police thought they had worked out an arrangement with his followers to allow a small dignified funeral that would conform with public health guidelines under the current coronavirus lockdown." Again listeners, remember that's Israel's coronavirus lockdown, but when it was time to bury the rabbi on Monday, thousands of people showed up ignoring social distancing rules and clashing with police who tried to disperse the mass gathering. Such violations of lockdown rules by segments of the ultra-orthodox population have angered a broader Israeli public that is largely complying with the restrictions imposed to halt a raging coronavirus outbreak." Again, that from the Associated Press, as reported from Tel Aviv last week. Jacob, I assume Prime Minister Netanyahu can't be called anti-Semitic, but it sounds like the exact same thing, a new outbreak followed by new lockdown rules to stem the tide and protests against it by Hasidic or ultra-orthodox groups, whatever label people want to use, and even clashes with the police. Again, I assume those Israeli police aren't enforcing social distancing because they hate the Jews. How similar do you see the situation has been?

Jacob: It's actually ironic, because Netanyahu is probably even stricter than Joe Biden, on implementing social distancing.

Brian: Or Mario Cuomo, I mean Governor Andrew Cuomo.

Jacob: Right. There, you see the infection rate is probably the same rate that we had late May, early June. Despite that, despite the fact that there are reports that there are probably hundreds in the ICU, there are unreported members of the community who have contracted the virus in recent weeks. I believe that there's this religious argument to be made, that you cannot go on with religious practice complying with certain restrictions, and so there are those who say, "You know what? We we have to also think about our future, the future of our kids, but also our religious practices cannot be stopped even when we deal with such a crisis." The problem is that number one, in our Torah, it says you have to do the outmost to save lives. Here, we are dealing with a matter of life and death. The fact that we were hard hit at the beginning of this outbreak, the fact that there's an uptick in cases should serve as an alarm for the community, but I also believe that it has to do collaboration with government, has to be a little more collective. Number one, the government has failed in recent months to actually reach out and educate the community about the certain guidelines, but also how serious this is, and how we actually bring down the infection rate. The community has to believe, the government is not declaring the war on religion. They are not out to get us because they hate us. They actually want to deal with the problem. The fact is, if you look at their long-held record, both Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo have a long-standing relationship with the community. They've even gotten criticism from their own party for their standing with the Jewish community on certain issues and their stance on Israel. I believe that if government understands that there are certain restrictions you cannot impose on the community, especially in the midst of a holiday, and especially if you are unable to enforce it, as we have seen last week over the weekend, and also back in March, the community will understand that there has to be a collective effort to actually bring down the infection rate.

Brian: With Jacob Kornbluh from The Jewish Insider and Elizabeth Kim from Gothamist, David in the West Village has a question, I think for Liz. Hi, David, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

David: Hi, Brian, love your show. I have nothing to do, I haven't been to Borough Park or any of that, but I'm a photographer and I photographed the Black Lives Matter protests, many, many, many, many of them. I know people like to make fun of millennials, but every one of those people, they were young and they were all wearing masks. I think that's what kept the infection rate low. That's all I have to say.

Brian: David, thank you very much, Liz, what about that as a contrast? That the racial justice over the summer were generally by people who did believe in the science, so there was a lot more mask wing and a lot more social distancing, even though the crowds were large than what we're seeing now in places like Borough Park.

Liz: I think that's true but at the time, top experts, including Dr. Anthony Fauci were worried because when you're protesting, you tend to also be shouting. Shouting, singing, those are activities that are known to expel the virus into the air. I don't know that it's that simple. I think that at the time, if you were to go back and to read the stories, you saw a lot of experts who said they were alarmed, and they were worried about an uptick, but the uptick just, it didn't manifest itself, and that was luckily it did not manifest itself, but I think it's a combination of being outdoors. Yes, people were wearing masks, but I think if you were to follow the protests throughout the day, it's very difficult to wear the mask properly for hours of protesting, and you would see sometimes the mask would slip a little bit and people were chanting slogans. I don't know that it's that simple, but for sure, yes, we did see a lot of good mask compliance among the protesters. I don't know that, that was the single reason though why the virus did not spread. I think in hindsight, the biggest reason was that everybody was outside. You were doing it outdoors.

Brian: Which does raise the question, Liz, about why the current restrictions on gatherings that are even outdoors, and whether that is really scientifically backed up?

Liz: Right. I think the greater concern is people indoors. What we know now is that being inside a building that doesn't have good ventilation, that these are all things, and being close together, families, a lot of frequent contact, this is the recipe for what can cause an outbreak.

Brian: Honda on the Upper East Side. You're on WNYC. Hello, Honda.

Honda: Hi, how's it going? I wanted just to bring two friends of mines and their perspectives to this discussion. One is an Orthodox Jew and a doctor who has done an immense amount of work in the Haredi community on promoting vaccination and coronavirus response. He personally expressed immense frustration about the government and the media response. That it felt like an attack on this marginalized community, and being blamed in a way that reflects often the history of Jewish people being blamed for various crises and things that they were not responsible for. A second friend of mine is HIV-positive. He also mentioned that, we've seen this dynamic in public health before, where risk emerges in a marginalized community and authorities need to find ways for safer personal practices, and avoid negative effects with targeted messaging. However, as we saw with the HIV/AIDS crisis in the gay community, there was an immense amount of panic and stigmatization around these people, and reinforcing negative stereotypes that created public backlash, and ultimately more harm to these stigmatized communities. It's really up to the media and the government to find ways to de-stigmatize risk factors and talk about them in a non-moralistic way, that can do the proper outreach in order to have effective public health responses as well.

Brian: Honda, thank you very much. Jacob Kornbluh, how do you, as a member of the media, but from within the particular community in Borough Park, see those two critiques?

Jacob: To be honest, as much as people want to feel singled out, there's still a virus out there. I believe that it has to do with number one, people have to understand that if you are going to defy the social distancing guidelines, just because you want to criticize government, you actually are not going to bring down the infection rate, you might even contribute to a spike in cases, but I also believe that people are very right to criticize the mayor and the governor for imposing certain restrictions in a very short time without much notice, before exhausting all other measures, which is creative solutions that some local council members came up with. If it's street closures during the holidays or during Saturday services, if it's mass testing within the community, education outreach, and so forth. I believe that the governor cannot just ignore the data coming in to the system. You cannot ignore that there is a spike in certain neighborhoods, but you also cannot engage in certain behavior that actually damages your cause. When you criticize government, or your protest, you can have a civil protest, but once you engage in violence, and once you call for people to defy the basic social distancing guidelines, that spotlights the underlying fact that there is a spike in this neighborhood, and that people do not want to make an effort to bring down the infection rate.

Brian: One more call. Isa in Cobble Hill. You're on WNYC. Hello, Isa. Isa, are you there? Am I saying your name right? I think I am.

David: You were saying my name right, Isa. Can you hear me?

Brian: Now we got you. Now I can hear you. Hi, there.

Isa: Thank you. First I love your show, but I want to commend Jacob for really putting out this information and putting himself at risk with the people that are harassing him. I don't know who Heshy Tischler is. I'm a non-religious Jew. I'm deeply offended by the-- sorry my parrots are in the background making noise-- by this ignorance of the people that are doing this. It's so simple to wear a mask, and it's so simple to find creative ways to deal with being a community and it shouldn't a battle between each other. Comparing the mayor and the governor to Nazis by this Heshy Tischler person, I can't even believe that this was happening, but I hope that some of the reformed rabbis, and community leaders, and conservatives to the Orthodox community, and speak to them and try to enlighten them about this virus and how serious it is.

Brian: Isa, I'm going to leave it there because your phone is breaking up, and we're also running out of time, but let me put your thought to Jacob as our time is about to run out. Jacob, I know you can't comment very much on the attack against you, since it's a matter of criminal proceedings now, against at least one individual, this populist leader, he's usually described as, and city council candidate, Heshy Tischler, but to the extent that you can say anything. Well, how are you? How do you feel about the fact that just reporting the facts as a journalist for the benefit of safety in your own community gets you labeled as a moser, or moiser, or a snitch?

Jacob: First of all, it is unfortunate that people engage in violence and harassment. Obviously, taking on this job, I knew that I won't be a popular figure, but I never thought that I will be unsafe walking the streets of New York City, but I still believe that it is very important to be out there, report the facts, believe in science, provide the data, and continue doing my job, undeterred. That will not deter me. I will not be intimidated by any hate mail, calls for my death in middle of the night. That will not deter me and it shouldn't deter anyone from doing their job, honestly. I also believe that in a civil society, we should engage in dialogue. We should discuss issues that matters to all of us, collectively. After all, we are not only Jews in America, but we're also one people, one free people, and we all want to deal with this deadly virus and bring down the infection rates. I also want to thank everyone who reached out, you and everyone who reached out personally, and in public, to support me. It's really humbling, and I believe that I should just be able to do my job.

Brian: In the spirit of the dialogue that you were just referring to and hoping for, let me ask you one additional follow-up question, so that we don't paint with too broad a brush, which I think, it's very important to avoid. There are many rabbis and other community leaders as I understand it, not just reform denomination rabbis or conservative denomination rabbis as the last caller was referencing, but other orthodox, including Hasidic rabbis, who do follow and promote mask-wearing, and social distancing, and other public safety measures, avoiding large indoor gatherings especially. How would you measure or describe how much of a community within a community, within a community phenomenon we've been talking about, so the listeners outside your community don't paint with too broad a brush?

Jacob: I believe the overwhelming majority within the community understands that this is real, that we have to deal with it, and that you cannot defy the law, or break the law, and engage in violence. I also believe that some people are trying their utmost to actually comply with the social distancing guidelines, but it's been very hard to actually implement certain restrictions. I will give you just an example, the limit on services in houses of worship to 10 people. There are probably over 100 synagogues just in Borough Park itself, and the smallest synagogue probably has more than 10 people on any given day. To limit that, people feel that, "If government is going to restrict me from conducting my services, I'm just not going to comply with any of the restrictions." There has to be, again, a collaboration between government and the community, but as you said, I pray in a synagogue every Saturday where it's required to wear a mask, and where people engage in social distancing measures. There are a lot out there who are trying to do this, but are being shamed by others or being called out for trying to suck up to government and to elected officials, but I think that the majority understands that this is a serious infection and we have to deal with it.

Brian: Jacob Kornbluh from The Jewish Insider. Elizabeth Kim from Gothamist. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth: Thanks, Brian.

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