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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Today marks one week since Kathy Hochul was sworn in as governor of New York. Today is also the expiration date for New York's eviction moratorium. It looks like at Hochul urging, there will be a special session of the legislature tomorrow to extend it. Normally, the legislature wouldn't meet again until January but if they do extend the eviction moratorium, they'll have to be careful. The old moratorium was thrown out by the US Supreme Court, and the Landlord's Lobby is threatening to sue again after a new one is passed. Let's talk about all this with Gloria Pazmino, political reporter for Spectrum News, NY1, who's been covering Hochul's first week. Hey, Gloria. Welcome back to WNYC.

Gloria Pazmino: Hi, Brian, thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Is a special session of the legislature officially on?

Gloria Pazmino: Well, it is on if you talk to several lawmakers, which I've been doing over the last couple of days. It has not been officially announced by the governor or any of the legislative leaders but the overall consensus among lawmakers is that they are expecting to be called back this week as early as Wednesday possibly.

Brian Lehrer: I think the legal aspect of this, what the Supreme Court struck down is really interesting, and we'll get into a little of it, but is the eviction moratorium expiring today because it had an end date, or because the US Supreme Court struck it down?

Gloria Pazmino: Unfortunately, there's been a little bit of confusion on this. I think the answer is a little bit of both. The fact is that the Supreme Court struck down both the moratorium and a portion of the law in the New York moratorium, which I think is what you are referencing, Brian. As of now, I think what's most important for listeners to know and for those who are worried about the potential of being evicted is that there remain some safety nets still available. The Emergency Rent Assistance Program, also known as ERAP is something that is still available, and those who are working on this are urging people to sign up for as soon as possible.

Brian Lehrer: The US Supreme Court throughout the New York moratorium as it was because it didn't require tenants to show proof of hardship in order to qualify, they just had to claim it. What do tenants have to do now to be protected?

Gloria Pazmino: Correct. Basically, what the court said in its decision, the Supreme Court sided with landlords who argued that tenants, all they had to do was simply fill out a form claiming financial hardship as a result of the pandemic and that there was really no mechanism in place within the law for landlords to double-check or confirm that said hardship was in fact correct and that the person was being truthful about that claim. This seems like a basic paperwork thing that sometimes you have to provide for other kinds of applications, you have to show proof of the hardship that you are claiming to have.

The court sided with the landlords who said that there was really no due process for them to make sure that tenants were being truthful and that as a result, it opened up the door for people to essentially abuse the program. What I am hearing now from lawmakers who were working on this is that legislators believe they can write a bill essentially addressing that precise part of the court's opinion. They believe they can come up with language that provides landlords a way to double-check someone's claim of financial hardship and that they could simply go from there. In other words, just creating another step in the process to make sure that if a tenant is applying on the grounds of financial hardship, that somehow that information can be confirmed.

Brian Lehrer: Do you happen to know why tenants groups or the state thought it was fair in the first place to landlords to let people not pay the rent if they just claimed they were having financial problems without having to prove it? Why wasn't that seen as an open door for abuse in the first place?

Gloria Pazmino: Yes, I can't get into the mind of the advocates on this, but I think a lot of this Brian was drafted in a moment of absolute crisis as a result of the pandemic and in an effort to prevent a housing crisis. I still believe that that is very much what's at the top of everyone's mind on this. I should mention the landlords have also been impacted by all of this, specifically, the smaller landlords. You had someone on your show yesterday, who talked about being a mom and pop landlord, they are also experiencing financial hardship as a result of people not being able to pay the rent.

Once the federal moratorium went into place, New York also trying to put its moratorium into place, perhaps some of these finer points of confirmation and making sure that all this paperwork should be required, was not something that was a prioritized at the time because they were just trying to extend a lifeline to people at a time of real crisis.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some more phone calls along these lines today and also broaden it as New York State's eviction moratorium expires today, and as the Rent Relief Program remains slow in sending out checks. We invite tenants or landlords who are affected by any of this to call in and describe your situation and say what you would like the legislature to do in this special session that we expect this week. Or because we're going to broaden this discussion beyond the eviction moratorium for at least a little while, ask any question about governor Kathy Hochul's first week in office of New York 1 political correspondent Gloria Pazmino. 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Gloria, as you know, a landlord's group called The Rent Stabilization Association is threatening to sue again if they think a new version of an eviction moratorium runs afoul of the Supreme Court ruling. Obviously, they don't like eviction moratoria at all. Can you tell people a little bit about that group? What is The Rent Stabilization Association that has its lawyers ready to pounce?

Gloria Pazmino: Sure, Brian. This group is actually the name of The Rent Stabilization Board might be a little bit confusing to people when you first see it. This is actually a group that represents the city's landlords, about 25,000 landlords, most of them are small. They're not representing big corporations or anybody like that, but they have obviously been very opposed to this moratorium. They have put the onus on the state, as well as the governor, as well as state representatives, to really get to work in making sure that those funds that are available for rent relief are actually being distributed. We know that the state has been hugely delayed in making sure that money that is actually available to people is properly distributed.

They're also saying, and at this point, threatening legal action, if the legislature is to go back into session and pass an extension on the moratorium, they're basically citing the Supreme Court decision, saying that this moratorium is unconstitutional, specifically citing that portion of the New York law which was struck down, and they are basically saying the Supreme Court has spoken, the highest court in all of the land has spoken.

If lawmakers come back and try to extend this, they will essentially be trying to circumvent the rule of the Supreme Court and we will sue in order to make sure that doesn't happen or at least certainly to try and prevent it from moving forward. That is where things stand on the landlord and at the moment. They're certainly focused on trying to make sure that the state begins to give out that money that is available in that fund.

Brian Lehrer: I always thought it was funny that a group calling itself The Rent Stabilization Association generally has as its number one goal abolishing rent stabilization but that's another show. Michelle--

Gloria Pazmino: It's a PR move.

Brian Lehrer: Absolutely. Michelle in Manhattan you're on WNYC. Hi, Michelle.

Michelle: Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to know exactly why the Renter's Assistance Program is taking so long to distribute checks? Everybody talks about how well they're taking too long, they're taking too long, but nobody's saying why that is, is it a personnel problem. I don't understand why. That's all I want to know.

Brian Lehrer: You're in good company around the state. Gloria, can even you answer that question.

Gloria Pazmino: Yes, it's a great question. Unfortunately, Brian, I think most people I've spoken to on this point to the state of our government in the last couple of months. We had a governor who was deep in the middle of a crisis, who was facing all these allegations, the potential to be impeached. Of course, I'm talking about former Governor Andrew Cuomo. There seems to be a belief that the governor was extremely distracted by all of this, and that as a result, these key parts of the recovery were not being addressed. We know that there's been problems with the website, that there's been all types of glitches, and that the process is extremely long.

Governor Kathy Hochul has actually spoken about this. She has said she has been frustrated and was frustrated by the amount of time that it was taking for these funds to be sent out. She said, "The money is there. The infrastructure is there. They have to simply get people working on it and making sure that the system is working." It's not a perfect answer, but I do think we cannot discount what's been happening with the state government over the last couple of months.

Brian Lehrer: Has Governor Hochul had any success and I realize it's just been a week in getting this money to flow more quickly, or is she finding that she can't press a button and make the wheels grind faster?

Gloria Pazmino: She has certainly acknowledged the failure of government till this point so far in getting that money out there. Part of what she has also said is that she is working with local lawmakers, and they're some talk about setting up a system so that the state can send out representatives into some of these communities to do outreach. Part of the problem is that many of those who actually qualify for relief either don't know how to submit their application, don't have access to it, don't know that they qualify. The governor has talked about doing a census-type outreach effort to make sure that the communities that are most impacted by eviction and by people having problems paying the rent are actually being reached. That people can apply for these funds,

Brian Lehrer: Derek in Manhattan you're on WNYC. Hi Derek.

Derek: Hi. I find it curious and obscene that the Rent Stabilization Association, which is a group of landlords or landlords lobbying group gets to win this argument about their inability to challenge the tenants. When in fact they get their way, they get to do things that the tenants have inability, or late ability to challenge with the landlords do. A prime example is with housing code violations. I think it's under a violation of warranty of habitability. If you say you don't have hot water, you don't have heat. The window's broken, whatever.

The landlords can self-certify that they cure the violation and the tenants won't find out that the landlord self-certified when the landlord didn't until they get to court. They start arguing and the tenant might say, "I still don't have heat." The judge may ask for the violation sheet from the department of buildings, I think it comes from. They say, "This violation cured," and they find out, "Oh, that was self-certified," and the landlord lied. Even if they do find out that the landlord lied, nobody prosecutes that landlord for perjury. If I might close with this, can you please identify if this eviction moratorium, is it just residential, or is it also commercial real estate?

Brian Lehrer: Derek, thank you for all of that. Gloria, great point if he's describing that accurately about a double standard. If the Supreme Court struck down the eviction moratorium, as it stood because the tenants claiming financial hardship didn't have to show proof. If in fact, the landlords don't have to show proof that they've cured housing code violations in their buildings. That definitely sounds like a double standard. I don't know if you know about that in particular.

Gloria Pazmino: Definitely, I can tell you a Brian that I think another thing I just want to remind listeners about is that if and when a case ever does wind up in housing court. People should remember that New York City residents now have access to free legal counsel when it comes to eviction cases. That was not previously the case a few years ago. To be honest with you, I don't know what this fight could potentially look like in court if a tenant goes to court because the landlord says that they haven't been facing financial hardship.

I have not seen the bill language yet, so I don't know how the legislators are going to come up with this in detail just yet. I want to be careful, but I do know that the point here is to make sure that both the landlord's concerns can be addressed while also not placing a higher burden on a tenant that is of course already facing stress and worry about the potential of being evicted.

Brian Lehrer: How do tenants or landlords apply for either Rent Relief, or Protection from Eviction, and what kind of proof of financial hardship would a tenant have to show?

Gloria Pazmino: Right now the main program that people should be looking into is the Emergency Rental Assistance Program, people call it ERAP, and that is a fund that was set up by the state. It is there, this is the money that the governor keeps referring to as the money is there, we just need to give it out. What is important is for people to actually sign up for it. Now for someone who might have some difficulty or isn't sure if they qualify, there are a lot of organizations throughout the city that are helping tenants with this process, everyone from some of the legal aid organizations to housing groups, in local neighborhoods, nonprofit organizations that work specifically on this. You will have to provide some documents. You will have to show how you were facing financial hardship over the last couple of months. Of course, remember this only covers a certain period from when the pandemic started in March of last year. It's important to keep that in mind, but I think that for people who are worried about this, the ERAP program is a good place to start

Brian Lehrer: While we've been talking Gloria I don't know if you've had your mouth on the radio, but one eye on the TV screen on your own station. Governor Hochul has been holding a news conference, and so we've got a little breaking Kathy Hochul news here on the occasion of her first week in office. I'm going to pass along what's being passed along to me. One thing is that New York will now require school personnel to either be vaccinated or face weekly testing statewide that's less strict than the standard that Mayor de Blasio is setting for the city.

I believe in which there's no test out option vaccination only but statewide, the governor is establishing the standard were at least vaccination or weekly negative COVID tests. She also said she's exploring all options to expand mandatory employee vaccinations with no test outs for all state-run congregate facilities. That would be nursing homes and other things that are run by the state. I wonder if you think that includes prisons.

Gloria Pazmino: That certainly does sound like prisons would fall in that category of state-run congregate facilities, as you mentioned. You're talking about nursing homes, you're talking about prisons, you're talking about places where senior citizens might go for the day, senior centers. I think the distinction that she is making about allowing teachers and school personnel to either have to provide that weekly testing or be vaccinated is interesting because as you said, the Mayor has placed a higher bar here in New York City.

It looks like she's given herself a little bit of wiggle room there. Again, some of the state-run facilities, she's also going to be running into a similar problem that the Mayor has run into here in New York City. That is, if any of these facilities are staffed by union employees it would be a question of collective bargaining. We know that some of the unions here at the local level have put up a fight in terms of their members being required to get the vaccine.

Brian Lehrer: Details are continuing to come in about the announcements that the governor is making. Another one is that there will be a school mask mandate for now, but she says she will be flexible and open to changing it if conditions change and if need be. In general, she promised "A new philosophy of pandemic management where Local Health Departments will have more autonomy than under the last governor." That guy named Cuomo, you may remember him. Do you know what that would refer to in terms of Local Health Departments having more autonomy for pandemic-related activities?

Gloria Pazmino: Sure. I think part of what we're seeing the governor do in the past couple of days, she really seems to be making an effort to make sure that people are seeing her as a clean break from the Cuomo administration, even though she was technically a part of the Cuomo administration. One big complaint that we heard from municipal governments throughout the state during the pandemic was the lack of coordination that obviously played out here in the city in a major way. We also heard complaints from other localities around the state where they were often hearing directives from the governor during his press briefing and that it wasn't giving them a chance to prepare or understand whatever the policy was. I also think it's a recognition that unfortunately the numbers continue to fluctuate in different parts of the state.

Just as a hypothetical while New York City might have good numbers, perhaps a place in another part of the state, isn't really getting there in terms of vaccination, or maybe their test results are coming back really high. It means that that local government needs to adjust its regulations in terms of masking, in terms of vaccination requirements. I think she's trying to balance both giving localities the authority and the power to make decisions based on what that community needs while also saying that she is the State's Chief Executive and she will be providing some guidance as well.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get one more call in here. It's a landlord call, Ruth, on Staten Island. You're on WNYC. Hi Ruth.

Ruth: Hi Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I'm a landlord on Staten Island. I just want to mention that I have a public assistance tenant, which I signed a one-year lease with the city and after a year was up, I didn't want to renew the lease because I wanted to sell my house. However, you cannot terminate a lease with New York City. I have to evict them. They won't just move out. New York City says, "Well, you signed a lease. it's over, but now you have to get rid of the tenant yourself." Now with COVID, it's been over a year and a half while we're trying to evict this tenant, I have an immaculate apartment, beautiful place, the city had checked it all out, all the boxes. It's beautiful when the tenant moved in. Now, the tenant is so angry because I am evicting him they're destroying to place. I had to up the signs a month about the range not working, the refrigerator not working, all new appliances when the tenant moves in. [inaudible 00:24:42]

Brian Lehrer: Your phone is breaking up, but let me get an answer to what I think is your central question. That is Gloria. If I understand her correctly, does the eviction moratorium cover these kinds of circumstances where if the owner is trying to sell the building or the house in this case they still can't evict somebody during COVID, or what if the tenant is trashing the place, and the eviction isn't for financial reasons because the rent is being paid, but for other reasons?

Gloria Pazmino: Right. Brian, and this is one of those cases where the specifics really matter and I don't want to give the caller the wrong advice or the wrong answer. I do believe that once you go through the legal proceeding in eviction court or in Housing Court rather that the details and the specifics of the case would be considered. However, I do not know for a fact that there was a blanket rule on whether it's a city lease or a blanket rule that applies to some attendant who is causing damage. I would suggest that the landlord reach out to the organization that represents landlords or get in touch with the city to get a little bit better guidance on that.

Brian Lehrer: You mean you're not a Housing lawyer in addition to a political reporter? Gloria Pazmino is a political reporter for Spectrum News, NY1 and covering Governor Hochul and the eviction moratorium, and the likely special session of the legislature, which we believe is going to start probably tomorrow to address the Moratoriums Exploration, which is today. Gloria, thanks so much.

Gloria Pazmino: Thank you for having me, Brian.

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