Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Coming up later in the hour. Why does Elon Musk really want Twitter? Is he spending $44 billion just to put Donald Trump back on the platform? Everybody's talking about free speech and disinformation as the issue, is that the only reason he's spending $44 billion on a company that has struggled to make money even as much as people talk about it. We'll talk about all these Elon Musk and Twitter issues coming up later in the hour. Right now here in primary season, we've been having the democratic gubernatorial candidates on the show.

It's still not known if there will be a Republican primary in New York State, or if only Long Island Congressman Lee Zeldin will make the ballot. On the Democratic side, we had Kathy Hochul, two weeks ago, Tom Suozzi last week, and now New York City Public Advocate Jumaane Williams widely seen as running to Hochul's left as Suozzi runs to her right. One point of historical note Jumaane Williams and Kathy Hochul ran against each other in the primary for lieutenant governor in 2018. Then he came within a few points of defeating her then. Public Advocate, thanks for doing this. Welcome back to WNYC. Do we have the Public Advocate?

Jumaane Williams: I'm here, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Now we got you, thank you. As a matter of general ideology or principle, if I can start here, would you say that you're running as the most progressive candidate in this field?

Jumaane Williams: I would probably say yes, although that name. I don't know what it means anymore. We have to remember that Governor Cuomo said that he was a progressive and I would assume that this government depending on the crowd you're speaking to will try to claim a progressive bonafide as well. What it means to me is that one, there are a bunch of policy beliefs that progressives have that everybody agrees with. There are some folks who stopped pushing when it gets too hard. When they're scared of losing an election, when someone [unintelligible 00:02:17] pushes back against them. Then there are those of us who will continue pushing forward the fight. That's the side that I'm on.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul's campaign website says she has prioritized keeping our community safe. This is not to say how she would do these things and we'll get into those with you. She says she has prioritized, one, keeping our community safe, two, bringing down the cost of living for New Yorkers, and three, investing in schools to get our kids back on track. Not in that order but those were the big three. How similar or different would your top three priorities list be?

Jumaane Williams: My top priorities are public safety. I've been a leading voice on housing and a transformative economy, which is inclusive of so many things that Governor touched on in her website. One of the differences we actually have a plan of how to do those things. Also, if you look at the budget that was just passed, that budget doesn't match up with what the governor says her priorities actually are.

Brian Lehrer: How do you mean that about the budget?

Jumaane Williams: Well, we, for instance, asked for $1 billion to be put into gun violence prevention, and victim services. Again, I've been the leading voice on public safety for almost 12 years. The governor hasn't really learned to talk about public safety but instead of holding up the budget, $4 billion for gun violence prevention and victim services, she held up the budget for $1 billion dollars to go to a billionaire who owns the Buffalo Bills, who hired her husband, that is not a good look in terms of where you want to spend our money.

In addition, telling a bunch of wealthy New Yorkers, that you're not going to raise any revenue from them, so that they don't leave New York, when they're not the ones leaving New York. The people who are facing foreclosure and eviction and people who can't pay for their medical bills or get mental health services, those are the ones that are living in New York. Our campaigns can't be more clearly different, who we're lifting up and who we're trying to protect.

Brian Lehrer: I want to follow up on that state revenue and who's leaving New York. Let me just open up the phones for our listeners. Some people are already calling. We can take some questions for New York City Public Advocate and Democratic gubernatorial hopeful Jumaane Williams, keep your questions, issue-oriented and respectful as always, 212-433 WNYC 212-433-9692 or you can tweet a question @brianlehrer. You're a public advocate. I noticed that when the new state budget was approved at the beginning of this month for the new fiscal year, you and Hochul and Suozzi all said very different things about taxes.

Hochul said she was proud of cutting the gasoline tax temporarily by 16 cents a gallon to help fight inflation and speeding up a middle-class tax cut. Suozzi said he would go much further and propose a 10% reduction in the New York state income tax rates. You made the statement about insufficient revenue considering the wealth of the state. Can you go into that and contrast yourself on taxes?

Jumaane Williams: Absolutely. I've been very consistent on these conversations. One, I definitely agree there's too much of a burden on our middle-class, working class struggling New Yorkers and the tax they pay. I actually sued the mayor, of the city of New York, to try to deal with that issue here in New York City. I've always been consistent about that. Why the governor would focus only on a gas tax, you'd have to ask her, particularly as she's not doing so well on climate. We do know that everyone has been suffering through this pandemic. What we recommend with that, everyone get a rebate of some sort and they can then apply that to where their [unintelligible 00:06:20] is hurting them more.

For some folks that might have been the gas, for some folks, it might have been an increase in housing, or food expenses. That would have been a better way to deal with that but primarily, we cannot have the New York State we need for all New Yorkers, if we don't raise revenue. No one would disagree with that. Right now, the burden of that, on middle-class working and struggling New Yorkers. All we said is we need to try to shift that so that the wealthiest among us, who have gotten hundreds of millions, hundreds or billions of [unintelligible 00:06:52] dollars after the pandemic than before, we have to ask them to pay their fair share.

The governor has said that she will not raise any revenue from them, which means the rest of us are going to have that burden. It also means some of the things that you put in the budget in the out years are not real, because we're going to lose federal funds and when we lose federal funds, all of those things are going to get cut. Those are going to impact the New Yorkers who are hurting right now.

Brian Lehrer: The top few percent of New Yorkers in terms of income already paid more than a 10% top marginal rate that's on top of the federal income taxes. If they live in the five boroughs, the city income tax too or some county taxes elsewhere around the state, is that sustainable?

Jumaane Williams: One, they pay more in income tax because they make more income, so that makes sense. If you look at the overall tax that they pay, versus many New Yorkers, it is not progressive at all. The people who can't afford to stay here, they're actually leaving. What we want to do is have a conversation of a civic responsible conversation about everybody doing what they can with what they have, where they are. If you happen to have two airplanes that you own, you happen to have two midtown properties that you own, you should be paying additional taxes for that, so that people can be able to pay for things that they need to live in the city. It can't be a city for just the wealthy.

When that happens, we do see the impact of people's ability to live healthy, safe lives. That is the type of leadership we need in New York. That's the type of leadership that Democrats say that they want to espouse but when it comes down to it, unfortunately, we don't see that in our leadership. That's actually a liability.

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about who's really leaving the state, because Hochul and especially Suozzi sound concerned about people with the means to leave New York State doing so in large numbers and going to Florida for an example that always comes up with no state income tax, and other lower-tax states. There were stats that came out earlier in the pandemic that seemed to show the bulk of the people who did leave New York City at that time were the people of the most means who could afford to go here and go there and not the lower-income people who are generally seem to have less choice. I think you see it differently.

Jumaane Williams: Well, I do know that a few months ago, the governor in front of wealthy donors said that she won't raise taxes [unintelligible 00:09:46] and within that week raised $20 million. Subsequently her own budget director Robert Mujica you could have a conversation whether he should do it or not, but subsequently he said that "We have not lost [unintelligible 00:09:59] doing this." Any loss that happened in the pandemic seems to have come back as people know that New York state is a place you want to be, that's where you want to live. We do see a huge amount of population, but that population loss is not the millionaires and billionaires. New York is now the most expensive place to live, it used to be in California, places like LA and San Francisco, it's now us. The housing plan that the governors put forth is woefully inadequate. We are about to see a huge wave of evictions on top of the homelessness crisis that we already have.

The unfortunate thing is that we have an opportunity now not to go back to normal and a poll came out that shows people don't want to go back to where we are and they're very concerned about the way Hochul is leading the state. Unfortunately, there seems to be decisions that are made solely to see if you can win an election as opposed to the do what's right for New Yorkers who living here right now, who are suffering with housing issues, suffering with health issues, worried about public safety.

Brian Lehrer: If you're saying people are fleeing for cost of living reasons who are more middle class, working class, lower income, where are they going? Do you have stats?

Jumaane Williams: Well, we've actually seen a reverse migration for Black New Yorkers for quite some time going back down south. We are seeing people who have the ability to not work in person and who can't afford the place that they're living move neighboring states or down south. We do know that that is happening, and when you ask folks about it, yes, public safety is an issue, but one of the primary reasons is the cost of living here in New York.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call, Drew in Westchester, you're on WNYC with New York City Public Advocate Jumaane Williams as he runs through the Democratic nomination for governor. Hi Drew.

Drew: Hey, how's it going Brian, how's it going to Jumaane? Jumaane, first and foremost, I just want you to know, I truly admire you. I spoke to you a while back on the Zoom call on January 6th and I was telling you about how the state-

Brian Lehrer: Of all days.

Drew: -didn't give because he had held a Zoom call that day because he just wanted everybody to be calm. I was telling them how the state still didn't allow people who had a record to have a real estate license. He actually had somebody from his office reach out to try to help me. Unfortunately, I'm still fighting for my license from a case I caught 10 years ago, but that's a whole different story. What really concerns me though Jumaane heading into this election, I think you have a big base you have not tapped into.

I'm surprised I haven't saw you in Mount Vernon or Yonkers yet where a lot of Black New Westchester's cling to you or Greenberg or Elmsford or Peakskill or any of these towns where I think you could turn out a big base. Heading into November, a lot of Democrats are playing footsies and Black New Yorkers who admire you such as myself, we're going to be the ones who pay if we lose this election, let's make no mistake about it. Lee Zeldin is a bigot and he's a tyrant, point blank period. He tried to overthrow the election and if we don't come out in full force, he has a very real chance of winning because a lot of Democrats are playing footsies including Mayor Adams.

I'm going to say it, you didn't say it, I feel like Mayor Adams is playing footsies with the Republicans and if we don't come out in full force, we're going to lose. We can't depend on Long Island. I feel like Long Island is swaying, but Westchester is a strong Democratic base that has been voting for progressives such as Jamal Bowen and Monday Jones and I think that I would love to see you here more man. I think you'll find you have a lot of support.

Brian Lehrer: Drew, thank you very much for your call. Of course, assuming Lee Zeldin is the Republican nominee we'll give him a chance on this show to refute some of the the accusations in that call and we'll have the general election candidates on at that time, but Public Advocate, sounds like you have a fan in Westchester, but he thinks you're not campaigning there very much.

Jumaane Williams: I want to just thank you so much for all the kind words, I really do appreciate that. We have actually been to Mount Vernon Westchester. I went to a few churches there, we're definitely planning hoping to come back. We would ask that folks go to Jumaanewilliams.com and help out with 5, 10, $15, whatever they can do just help us get around the state. I don't take the kind of money that the governor does, but I do want to mention something that is important, the poll that came out just yesterday actually said that the governor is a liability. Most folks say that if Governor Hochul is democratic nominee, they will vote for someone else.

It goes to a larger issue with the Democratic Party because people like Governor Hochul and many other Democratic leaders do a terrible job talking about public safety. They just do. It's been something I've been talking about for a very long time and have evidence showing that we've been productive on it. Same thing with taxes, instead of leaning into a vision which is what we should do, and it's shown when we lean into a vision, we win, we keep giving a boogie man or boogie woman for people to vote against. That's a liability in this party and it's one of the reasons people have to really think this out, the message, the status quo of what the governor's presenting at the time is a liability in the general election. However, myself and Ana Maria Archila my running mate [unintelligible 00:15:48] governor, what we are presenting is what people actually want. They're pushing back from the status quo. It's something the Republican Party has capitalized on and has benefited from, but the Democratic Party is still stuck in trying to maintain a status quo that doesn't work for most of New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, you as a candidate are going to say you're running on what people want and I think most people would say you're running a principled campaign, but the caller brings up what's going on on Long Island as a swing area. Political analysts tend to say you're likely to lose because the voters are not quite where you are right now in a statewide election. Different than for New York City Public Advocate, you know that [unintelligible 00:16:29] and Suffolk just went Republican and some key offices in last year's election where that flip, they have been democratic held offices, we see the polling that indicates inflation is a top issue that favors more conservative candidates.

Make the case to those voters who might respect you, but think your focus on root causes is not addressing their immediate needs enough, or to the caller's point, is it more about turning out your base and looking away from those other voters.

Jumaane Williams: I'm going to push back a little bit because the goal post always gets moved, which is fine, but I always seem to get really close or hit it. It was always moved in terms of will our message work statewide. We showed that I did it in the primary. Believe it or not, there was question where the message worked even in the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: You're talking about 2018 when you were running for Lieutenant Governor against Hochul?

Jumaane Williams: Yes. Even when I came into office, I was told I would never be a citywide elected official because of my messaging. What I've been able to do that most Democratic leaders can't is really address the issues that people care about. Our plan is not just about root causes which is huge, it shows that the things that we can do right now to deal with this gun violence. We have said, now at three surges of police that at each surge, that that alone will not solve the gun violence problem and it hasn't and so we've put out a plan. We have told folks that this focus on barrel form is the wrong focus because it's not going to keep it safe.

You know what, the polling showed while people supported the barrel form, 54% of New Yorkers said that it won't make a difference and it might make it worse. The governor herself [unintelligible 00:18:15] said that barrel form is not going to fix the problem but we're going to do it anyway. Our messaging, when we get to speak to people of all spectrums and how we discuss about making you feel safe and be safe, we have a lot of people agree with us and actually join in that vision, but Democrats have been, and the leadership have instead of leaning to their vision of public safety have tried to use Republican light talking points and it doesn't work.

That's about fear mongering and that unfortunately has worked. We've seen it work on the national stage, but that's because we don't have the Democratic leadership pushing back in that real vision. I am a firm believer that when we get our message across and we've seen this time and time again, people agree with it, even folks who think they disagree with it.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a crime question, Mark in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Public Advocate Jumaane Williams running for governor. Hello Mark.

Mark: Yes. I know he is running for governor and I'd like to see him try to get me to vote for him. Let's see if he can answer these questions. I remember when Jumaane Williams was standing on the Upper West Side at the hotel which was filled with homeless people who were running around ruining the neighborhood, screaming into a microphone that these people should stay there. They should stay there and be able to run around, do whatever they want and they were causing people to leave that neighborhood at the time. They finally got them out, the neighborhood has improved. Number two, I'd like to know what he plans to do to bring crime down in New York City.

Isn't it interesting that as soon as the bail reforms took place a week or two later, crime shot up. Interesting that has nothing to do with it I guess according to Jumaane Williams.

Brian Lehrer: Mark, let me get him to answer your question. Obviously, you don't have a voter in Mark in Manhattan, but he probably speaks for a lot of people, even who may not put it in such sharp tones, who want to hear something about getting crime down right now. I see you have what you call your safe and thriving communities agenda to counter Hochul's harmful public safety platform as you put it, and the 10-point planners, I'm reading it, does not include more police in the subways, or elsewhere, no more discretion for judges to keep defendants in jail based on a dangerousness standard.

I have a feeling you're not going to convince that caller, but make your case to callers who are maybe on the fence and asking themselves this question.

Jumaane Williams: Mark is an important New Yorker, just like all of the New Yorkers, just like my mother who had a bullet come through her car door as it was parked in front of her home. These issues are very, very important to me. What Mark is discussing at the hotel in the Upper West Side is something we always say, when people say we want to solve the homelessness problem, they generally mean they don't want to see homeless people. After that hotels closed, we see more homeless people on the street, not less. After you're trying to move them out of the subway, they're still here. After you knocking out the encampments, they're still here.

We have a plan to actually try to address the homelessness issue instead of moving them from neighborhood to neighborhood, from space to space, that's one. When it comes to crime, what you need is a leader who can actually walk people through what is happening. Now, I, if you want to talk about the [unintelligible 00:21:47] going up, I was a leading voice to getting this city to where we were in 2018. I remember in 2018, everybody saying, "We love criminals, this and that," and I would say, "No, the things that we fought for that people fought us against are keeping New Yorkers safe."

If you're a victim of crime, the means absolutely nothing to me, but we have to look at where we are, and then now it's always ironic to me. When I was saying that in 2018, that is the very year people are now looking back at to say, "How safe is New York?" I was a leading voice to help get us there. What we have to do is look at what's happening nationally. Discretion that judges use, they will talk about actually being used in every other state. There are cities that are actually doing worse than us, when it comes to violence. We look at the national stage when it looks to transportation. The transportation hubs are nationally going up in violence.

What we need is leadership here in New York, that won't deal with the fear mongering, talking about [unintelligible 00:22:43] reform, when actually everybody looks at the number says, "You can't make that connection". We should be looking at why are police officers who are risking their lives getting historic numbers of guns off the street. Why they're not going to the court system? That's something that we can look at. When we look at the programs that we put in place to get us to 2018, why are they not funded better? Why are they not fully funded? Why are they not structuralized?

When we look at the things that help get us safe, people will agree that police should not be the first responders to mental health crisis. Why is it that the police department has access to unlimited access to overtime funding, but the department of health and mental hygiene does not? These are conversations that you have to have as a leader, because what tends to happen is you feed people's fear, and they're rightfully afraid, but our plan keeps people safe, and it helps them feel safe. Mark has a lot of reasons to be angry, and so does my mother who bullet went through the window, and what we need are leaders who are going to address the violent crime issue.

Brian Lehrer: I'm just curious. Mark, I think you're still there. You challenged him to convince you, he addressed your fear in his way. How much did he convince you, or not?

Mark: He didn't convince me, but I see his points. He made some good points. I see he cares about people, and he cares about the crime situation. I still don't think that I'm going to vote for him in the primary, but he's softened my anger at him.

Brian Lehrer: Mark, thank you very much for your call. You could score that moral victory, I think [crosstalk]

Jumaane Williams: I'll take it. I think actually the more I get to discuss our public safety plan, the more we get to really address. Because what leaders are not doing or addressing the very real anger and pain that people like Mark have, we are either ignoring it or putting something in place that is not real to address it. People are hurting. People are afraid. People can't pay their rent. They can't pay their mortgage. All these things are happening, and we have a governor right now, that did not address those things in the budget and is more worried about the exact signs of winning an election. I've always been more worried about doing what's right for the people of the state, and hopefully that gets me elected.

I'll tell you one last thing, the difference between myself and this governor, the Lieutenant governor's race, I am exceedingly more proud of how I lost that race than how she won it.

Brian Lehrer: Let me touch two last things before you go. We're going to have to-- These are big issues too, but we're going to have to do them briefly because we can't do everything in one interview. We're inviting you all back for another appearance in May. Another appearance in June, since the primary isn't until the end of June. Do you have a COVID platform that's different from the Governor's in any way or from Suozzi's? He said on the show last week that he would lift the mask mandate for the subways, buses and commuter rails? Hochul is keeping it on at least for now. Any COVID policy distinctions you want to make with them?

Jumaane Williams: Many of our distinctions happen in failures before this moment in time, and we have been very clear on the former administration and this administration how it helped get us to the epidemic, to be the epicenter of the epidemic, unfortunately when she was Lieutenant Governor didn't speak up on behalf of New Yorkers. I do support the mandates particularly as we're seeing this rise in COVID right now, but we have to talk about these things differently.

We have to realize that there is a lot of COVID fatigue, and when we're talking about these, we have to put that in our messaging, because again, we have to address people where they are, while helping them understand what we have to do collectively to keep ourselves safe. It's usually one or the other, and we need a leader who can do both.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, do you have a climate agenda that's different from your opponents?

Jumaane Williams: Absolutely. Good. The governor is terrible on climate. Right now, we're going to put out a fuller plan on climate, but we've asked the governor to help us with the kinetics and rebates, that should be getting paid to help us to get the public power, to help us stop proof of work Bitcoin mining. That's not the only way you can get Bitcoin, but there's a very specific way that is terrible for the climate happening in [inaudible 00:27:07] right now, and the governor is allowing it to continue.

Again, there's always money involved. This budget, is terrible when it comes to climate change, it's terrible when it comes to housing, unfortunately it doesn't do much when it comes to keeping New Yorkers safe.

Brian Lehrer: All right. I know she would argue that it's better than you say on climate. We're going to make that more of a focus in next month's round. I hope all three of you will accept. New York City Public Advocate, Jumaane Williams, running now for the Democratic nomination for governor of New York. Thanks as always. We always appreciate when you come on the show and thanks in the candidate context today.

Jumaane Williams: Thank you. Peace and blessed and lovely night, everyone.

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