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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and yes, we have breaking news just out this hour, not from the President or Congress, not from the incoming or outgoing mayor, it's from the Juilliard School. That's right, the legendary school for music right near Lincoln Center. Julliard has just announced that they have received a $50 million grant from the Crankstart Foundation for the 30th anniversary of their Music Advancement Program or MAP. That's the Juilliard Saturday music school program which tries to address inequities in music education. The program recruits students between the ages of 8 and 18 from backgrounds underrepresented in classical music.

They say the grant will allow them to expand enrollment from 70 to 100 full-tuition scholarships, and help fund other investments in the program. Joining me now to talk about this are two guests, Damian Woetzel, the president of Juilliard, and Anthony McGill, principal clarinetist for the New York Philharmonic, and MAP program's artistic director. Anthony, welcome to WNYC. Damian, welcome to WNYC, thank you so much for joining us today.

Damian Woetzel: Thanks so much, Brian.

Anthony McGill: Thanks for having us, Brian.

Damian Woetzel: Great to be on phone with you. Hello, Anthony, out there. It's a wonderful day in music, in education, and in the world. It's great to be together.

Brian Lehrer: President Woetzel, let's get right to it. What's the state of equity in classical music training, and tell us what this grant could mean for that?

Damian Woetzel: Well, this grant speaks to the really powerful need to broaden access to the highest level of classical music education. You mentioned already that it's the 30th anniversary of MAP, as we call it, Music Advancement Program. That was formed in the wake of all of the music education programs and arts education programs and public schools, really diminishing drastically throughout the 1970s and 80s. Right up till today, where we fight constantly for that access for children, all children to have a chance to explore the world of the arts as part of their education, as part of their building of creativity and curiosity and knowledge, as well as the possibility to be an excellent artist. MAP is dedicated to that principle. What this grant is going to do is supercharge the access to it. It's going to eliminate the financial barrier, it'll be tuition-free, it'll expand the numbers of students. It'll make really significant investments in what the program is able to do.

I just want to say, and I'm going to let Anthony do the granular things because he's the artistic director of MAP since 2019, and he was a faculty member before that and he has lived a life in classical music that is so exemplary and so inspiring, that the work that he has been doing at the Music Advancement Program, there's a reason this is happening. It is built to this place. It's a program of excellence and it's a program of the future. It's a day right now where we can really celebrate how this is going to expand exponentially.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, you're saying there used to be 70 students, and they had to pay some tuition, now it's going to be 100 students, and it'll all be free?

Damian Woetzel: Exactly right. It's going to build to 100 students, and we also are going to pilot a program for additional students who are younger, knowing that the pathways to excellence in music and all the arts really are much more effective the earlier you start.

Brian Lehrer: Younger than eight, right, because the program starts at eight years old now.

Damian Woetzel: That's correct, and even younger to try and create what we're envisioning, imagining as a pre-MAP. I was a dancer at New York City Ballet for many years but I first stepped in a dance studio at four. This is how it goes. I think the opportunity to expand in that direction as well is going to be pivotal for the future of music.

Brian Lehrer: Anthony is artistic director of the Saturday program. What goes on there in those soundproof practice rooms, those huge band and orchestra rooms? Where does equity come in?

Anthony McGill: Hi, Brian. What we do is that we not only find the most talented students in the New York area to really succeed in our program but we teach them not only just how to play their instruments well but how to be great citizens of the world, and frankly, how to care about others. How does that influence their musicianship? How does that influence their artistic growth?

It's a really powerful program because we're reaching them at the beginnings of their lives, really, at their careers. I think about always, what was my experience growing up. I'm calling, actually, you're calling me from South Africa right now where I just witnessed my brother get married. He was my older brother. He started playing when he was very young. I have understanding of what it took to become a musician and to give things to the world as a musician. That's really what we're doing for our students.

They get theory, they get peer training, they get chorus, that we have a team-building, community-building exercise in the morning called morning rally where they get to learn about how to use your music to change the world and change your community and help others. It's this kind of program and they get orchestra and wind ensemble as well. It's a really full day of study, all day long. The fact that we'll be able to reach more kids and give more students the access to this training but also to this amazing community really is going to change the narrative, I think, going forward, not just in the Julliard building but beyond.

Brian Lehrer: How do you do it? How do you bring more diversity into the content and connect it to change in society, to change in communities? Our sister station, WQXR, I think does a very good job these days of bringing diversity into the performers and composers who they feature on that classical music radio station. How do you do it at Juilliard? Anthony, how do you do it in the MAP program?

Anthony McGill: What we have to do, first of all, is be real, is to look around in the world and say, "Why does the world look this way? Why is everything so one-sided? Why is it not diverse?" Once you're honest with yourself about that, as a community and as a culture, you can start to make a change. What that means is that once you understand that there is a problem that young kids of color, females, women of diversity populations are not in a certain field or in a certain stage, you have to ask the question why. Once you get to the bottom of that, then you have to start making choices. You have to understand and bring in people into the conversation.

We not only bring people into the conversation, but we find them, we find young these talented students and say, "You're welcome here." That's the first thing, being able to have people understand that they belong in that place. They belong in the walls of that institution. They belong in the stages of our great artistic theaters, music concert halls, and in our orchestras and bands, and allowing people to understand that this just makes everything better. This makes the world better. This makes the product more excellent, more beautiful, and more effective.

Creativity, our art is about diversity. Great art is about color. It's about moving people, challenging people, and not being black and white. It's not a solid thing. It is moving, it is live, and it's breathing. That's what we're teaching our students. That's what this is going to allow us to do.

Brian Lehrer: Damian Woetzel, president of Juilliard. Do you want to add anything to that?

Damian Woetzel: I would second and third and fourth everything Anthony's been saying. I would say that on top of that is a recognition that it's not some picture you're trying to achieve. It's actually how you do things in your sense of acknowledgment that what I would say is that true excellence is when all our voices are singing, and acknowledging that and being aware that there have been assumptions made that have damaged our ability to be truly excellent, frankly.

As we look ahead, we think of that in terms of our curriculum, repertory choices that we expose in the same way as we think about literature. We think about all aspects of what we hope to absorb in terms of education because that leads to the world at large. That is the goal in terms of the fullest possible level of fulfillment and excellence and enlightenment and wonder. That's what happens frankly at Juilliard. It's what happens on Saturday mornings at 8:30 AM in what we call MAP rally when the students first arrive, and they're given questions to start them off on their day in that spirit of exploration. It's what we do when we go into a second-grade classroom and we see that eyes can light up with wonder and curiosity and the passion for learning.

I was lucky enough to spend many years going in and out of classrooms working with Yo-Yo Ma, the Silkroad Ensemble, and other organizations. Having that opportunity to bring that sense of curiosity and wonder that leads to the learning and the excellence and the fulfillment and the performances and the community that we really dream of, and Anthony, as the leader of MAP, really has galvanized that at Juilliard.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned Yo-Yo Ma and the Silkroad pride. One of the great things about that is that it's a connector between what we think of as western classical music and various world musics. I'm curious how much different genres of music are being taught at Julliard these days, Damian. I'm a big fan of Julius Rodriguez, the young jazz piano player who was studying at Juilliard until just a couple of years ago. I've seen him a couple of times. Is it classical and jazz? Is it other things too? What's the Juilliard curriculum?

Damian Woetzel: You mentioned jazz, of course. That's an anniversary year as well, 20 years old, and that's led by Wynton Marsalis. That's a thing about Juilliard obviously is that where we sit, we are deeply connected to the world of the arts in New York and it just emanates out. We're so fortunate in that aspect that our students are literally living in the sea of creativity that is New York. They're really surrounded by it. It comes in and out of the building, whether it's musicians who are working in the theaters right next door to Juilliard or the actors for the drama program and the teachers who, on one day, they're coaching our drama students, and another day, they're working on Broadway with the actors of today. That's the story.

That is actually throughout music, particularly US, there's Baroque music, there's opera and vocal arts, there's jazz. It's a true range. Of course, there's a thriving composition department of new music which has been the tradition of Juilliard with many past presidents being composers and people like Philip Glass and Steve Reich coming out of Juilliard and on and on down the line. Don't forget also there's dance here. As dance starts to intersect with music, that gives another whole level of range. From my perch as a ballet dancer at New York City Ballet, we were a house of music. Stravinsky scores that weren't played elsewhere were played at New York City Ballet under balancing. The expansion of vision and expansion of possibility and repertory comes through the sheer range of things that are happening.

My level of excitement at this all happening in one place, Juilliard is the place which combines all of these art forms and all of that possibility. That is an expanding definition of what we do. On a season, if you look at our season and you look at the range of music played, it is a phenomenal length that it goes, and it will continue to do that. I would emphasize again that the new music and the new musicians and the young composers throughout the school, college level, preparatory division, including MAP composers, are going to change what is out in the world. That's the most exciting thing of all. This is the future.

Brian Lehrer: I want to open up the phones. Listeners, do we have any Juilliard graduates listening? How have you made your career in music, or maybe you haven't, or maybe you came through the MAP program since it's been going on for 30 years now, we want to hear about it, and we can also take some calls from graduates of other music schools and conservatories, or if you were just a music major at a regular college on your respective paths after graduation, what are you doing now? Was your music education worthwhile? Did it lead you to a professional career in music? Did it help inform something else?

I know somebody who's a TV sportscaster who said his classical music training in elementary school really contributed to his success in that because of the rhythm and dynamics of presentation and all that stuff. If you majored in music, Juilliard or somewhere else, how has that informed or how has that out led to a career for you, for our guest Damian Wetzel, the president of Juilliard, and Anthony McGill, principal clarinetist for the New York Philharmonic and the artistic director of their Saturday program called the Music Advancement Program.

The news hook here is that that program for diversity in classical music training just got a huge grant, $50 million from the Crankstart Foundation to expand from 70 students paying tuition to 100 students tuition-free. Anthony, what is identifying, and you can speak in your role as an educator at Juilliard or a new role as the principal clarinetist for the New York Philharmonic, what is identifying and then recruiting underrepresented talent in classical music look like. Like if young Black and Brown kids aren't already getting classical music training all that much, how do you know where to look?

Anthony McGill: We look to our family of relationships around the city. We have a database of, and directors that we're close with that have we've already been accepting students from those schools and we look at those relationships. A lot of our talent comes from word of mouth. Folks that might hear this show, and if you know of young people, teenagers or below or younger that are really talented in the New York area, and you're like, "You know what, this program, it sounds really cool, it's at Juilliard and it's tuition-free and it's on Saturdays. I know Johnny is really talented," that's how it happens.

Also, if you have family members that you know are really interested in music but have been playing for like three or four years, and they're doing really well and maybe need private lessons and want to take it to the next level, that's how these things grow. We have older siblings that play instruments are like, "I really wish I could have gone to a program, wish I could have gone to Juilliard and studied music there as a high schooler or as a middle schooler, I didn't know you could do that." This is the place for you, this is how we find these people.

They come into our building and they play for us and they audition for us, and then we talk to their families, we interview, we want everyone to feel like they're a part of that community. It's a rigorous audition process. We really get to know the families and the students before we accept them into the program, but it's about spreading the word and I hope this spread the word far and wide because this is how we find people. It's just by word of mouth and there's a little bit of internet advertisement and things like that.

Brian Lehrer: We're all about spreading the word. Sonia in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Sonia.

Sonia: Hi. I am so excited about the grant because my son was one of the first students in the MAP program. He played the clarinet, his teacher was Dean Cooper-Rude, and now he's a consultant with NIH working on the Ebola virus and traveled to Congo and other places in Africa. Congratulations, I'm excited for you, and may that program continue. It has been a wonderful gift to New York City. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Sonia, can I ask, you were excited about the music program, and then he went into the sciences and medical field. Was there a relationship, or you're just glad he got a little music training along the way?

Sonia: Well, he loves the clarinet and he still plays it, but accidents or whatever, he went into the Peace Corps, he made his contribution, he even volunteered after he finished the program, he went back to Juilliard and volunteered as an assistant, but then he got his master's in global affairs at NYU, and now that's what he's doing.

Brian Lehrer: Sonia, thank you so much. Here's a grad of the MAP program. Natalia on Staten island. Natalia, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Natalia: Hello. First-time caller, long-time listener. I graduated from the MAP program in the '90s. My dad used to take me every Saturday. I was a trumpet player and I really benefited from the chorus program. I wanted to shout out Aaron Flagg, who was my trumpet teacher at the time who was just a great mentor for me. I had a question for the guest about some of the organizing happening in this last year with the Socialist Penguins, a student group that is at Juilliard that I know has been organizing. I was curious to learn more about where you all are at with that. As I'm now an organizer with artists around artists cooperative and more artist control within movement. I'm just curious to hear about how that organizing is going. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Damian, I guess that one's for you.

Damian Woetzel: First of all, I'd say, great that you called in. Thanks so much, thrilled that the first time is on this incredible occasion. Dr. Flagg, who I'm not sure you know, is the chair and associate director of our jazz program, is very much just an incredible force within the school. I've been to two jazz concerts in the last three days, and watching that program thrive as well under his and Winton's leadership, it's an incredible force and a part of the progress of Juilliard over so many decades in building and building and building the program so that it has that range that we were discussing before.

The goal here at Juilliard, the goal really, aside from the obvious artistic and educational and the priority is to make the Juilliard education not only extraordinary but also affordable. We have many programs that are tuition-free. So thrilled that now MAP is joining them, and we have 90% of our students are on financial aid and it's a priority.

I can tell you for the school and for me in every day that this type of a gift is the next step of many next steps to fighting for increased scholarship aid which has been going up percentage-wise every year and especially in these last years, trying to really address the rising costs and to make that principle of what Crankstart is doing with MAP is about reducing the barriers to being able to have the level of education that Juilliard provides.

When I look at the leadership and I look at Anthony and I look at the other, the Deans and Dr. Flagg, and whether it's in dance, drama, or music, and in all areas of the school, preparatory, college, graduate level, our goal is that extraordinary education affordably, and we need help. I'm working at it, we are all working at it, this is an example of that work. It's a great day to look at what's possible and dream big and really push hard, which is what we're doing.

Brian Lehrer: Brent in Manhattan.

Damian Woetzel: I'm thrilled to see the history. Oh, so go ahead. Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: I'm thrilled that the last two callers have both shouted out their teachers or one, her son's teacher, but by name, and then Natalia who went to the MAP program, naming her teacher, which I think is great. Brent in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Brent.

Brent: Hi, Brian. Long-time listener, first-time caller. This is about how music has led me to a different path. Got an undergraduate in music education from a large state-supported school in Texas and my graduate degree in modern American music from the Longy School of Music in Cambridge, which is now part of Bard College.

After moving to New York, I formed a vaudeville troop, which then didn't pan out so well, but people started asking me about my style and how I dressed, which has now led me to form my own company, helping men get dressed in a classic style for their weddings, which then has led to me going in and doing estate liquidation and really digging into vintage fines, especially in men's fashion. I attribute all that to a music career and the attention to detail you have to have when performing a very specific event.

Brian Lehrer: That's so interesting.

Brent Manhattan: I love your show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, and when my screen has said, Brent Manhattan says he has two degrees in music, now he's selling vintage clothes, I thought it was going to be a story of, oh, I couldn't make a living as a musician, so now I'm selling used clothes, but instead, you told this wonderful story of how one creative endeavor led to another, and that's a creative endeavor in its own right. Thank you for that call.

Damian, as president of Juilliard, do you keep track of what kinds of careers people who go to Juilliard, let's say for college, wind up in? Is it like a quarter full-time performing musicians? Is it even that? How many wind up as music teachers but don't really make a living performing or wind up in vintage clothing sales?

Damian Woetzel: Well, listen, judging by the callers, you can see that there's quite a range. While we don't have hard and fast statistics especially when we think about the range of possibilities, there are obviously orchestra jobs for musicians or dance company jobs, but right there, it pretty much stops because a lot of it becomes more about, okay, you're a composer and you're working in what way or you're a playwright, or there's lots of different range. Our actors obviously are in a much different workpool where it's very busy and then not.

It's tough, but we are working very hard at, and then I will tell you we're working very hard on it right now, coming out of the pandemic and realizing the challenges that they face. We have developed over the last years a substantial entrepreneurship program at the school, which is all about preparing our students for a variety of adaptable tendency, if you will, how they can take their education forward.

I think that starts right at the first day at Juilliard, frankly, because in many ways, coming to Juilliard, you are very narrow. I understand that when I came to New York to go to the School of American Ballet, I was all about my pirouettes and my tendus, and that was it. Very quickly, you start to open out and you realize, "Ah, there's more to, there's something more that could happen with this."

We watch our students, and in so many ways, all of our musicians in some ways are composers. We see that in some of the events we have, where we have open houses and students bring material they're working on, that is the mentality that leads to that huge range of outcomes. We're looking always to calibrate it.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. We just have 30 seconds left. I want Anthony to get a last word in here. We've been talking about your work as an educator. Anthony, I want you to put your principal clarinetist of the New York Philharmonic, read in your mouth and just say, how's the Philharmonic coming out of the pandemic. Are people coming? Are people still going to be coming after Omicron? We had somebody call up last hour and say, "I don't know if I should go anymore." Give us 20 seconds and then we're at a time.

Anthony McGill: New York Philharmonic is doing well. It's been around for 180 years, and I think we'll be around for hundreds of years to come. It's because people love the art form. People love music. They love music and art. They love being around others and hearing people play live concerts. The concerts have been full, and I think with vaccines and boosters and things like that, and listening to our health officials, we're going to get back stronger than ever. I believe that we're getting close, and I'm inspired for the future.

Brian Lehrer: That will have to be the last word because we're out of time. Congratulations on the grant. That's going to increase diversity and with free tuition and the Saturday program at Juilliard. Thanks so much for coming on, both of you.

Anthony McGill: Thanks, Brian.

Damian Woetzel: Thank you, Brian.

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