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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now is John Podesta, who among many other things, was White House Chief of Staff under President Bill Clinton, leader of the Obama-Biden transition team in 2008, Chairman of the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign in 2016, and founder of the think tank the Center for American Progress. His Twitter feed says, "Don't blame others for my opinions." John, nice to have you on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

John Podesta: Great to be back on with you, Brian.

Brian: I'll start with an easy one. You're excited about John Kerry's appointment I saw, which puts a climate change policymaker in a Cabinet-level position. If you accept that Barack Obama as president took climate seriously, what difference do you think this new position could make for actual climate policy?

John: Well, look, I think Joe Biden during the campaign made the climate crisis and investments to deal with that crisis central to his economic policy and his environmental policy. I think what this signal sends is that it will also be central to his security policy and foreign policy. Someone with John Kerry stature can really be a catalyst for what is it, particularly in a very important year in 2021, during the lead up to the Conference of Parties or so-called COP in Glasgow, which will occur towards the end of the year. To try to bring the world to greater ambition, that's what we need in order to solve the climate crisis.

We're not on track even to hit a two-degree rise in global average temperatures, and we have to go a lot further. As Biden and Harris recognize in the campaign, by mid-century, we have to have a net zero economy, no emissions that are not made up for by taking essentially CO2 out of the atmosphere. That's a huge task, but it's a global task and it's going to require a diplomat of both Kerry's experience and depth. Also, the fact that he's so passionate about climate change, to bring the global community together and increase ambition across the board. The US has been out of the game for four years. Now we're very much back in the game, I think.

Brian: Now, you're obviously a Democratic Party insider, and the Cabinet as it's shaping up, to some people's relief and some people's dismay, is filled with a lot of what look like fairly conventional choices to a lot of people. Why should people be excited about this?

John: Well look, I think they've chosen experience over just bringing in somebody new for the sake of bringing in someone new. I think they are people who can get things done. I think Biden understands that again, we have the simultaneous crises with COVID, with the recession, with the climate, as we've spoken about, and with racial justice. He wants an experienced team that can move the whole of government, every Cabinet agency to its highest ambition and I think that's what we've seen.

Yesterday, of course, he appointed two of my good friends and people I worked with, Neera Tanden to direct the Office of Management and Budget, and Heather Boushey, who runs the Washington Center on Equitable Growth to the Council of Economic Advisers.

They're both strong progressives. They have experience in being in Washington, but they've always pushed the party towards greater ambition, and really solving the problems of working people. I think if you look at it, the people he put out yesterday, this communications team, as I tweeted, women rule. It's a really exciting group of people and I think they'll do a great job for the country.

Brian: Jen Psaki as press secretary and other women on this, all-women communications team leadership. About people being insiders though, one issue regarding some of Biden's nominees revolves around two companies, WestExecs and Pine Island Capital, that use, and one of them has boasted about using, their ties to Washington insiders to get things for their investors.

As The New York Times reports, WestExecs founders include Antony Blinken, Biden's choice for secretary of state, and Michèle Flournoy, one of the leading candidates to be his defense secretary. Avril Hanes nominated to be director of national intelligence, and Jennifer Psaki now named as press secretary. What should progressives or good government watchdogs concerned about corporate influence in DC think about this, why isn't this the swamp?

John: Well, I'm not going to defend the swamp, but I will defend the individuals. I think they're people of high integrity. Put a premium on complete and total disclosure and I think that's what should be expected of candidates going into government. I think that we would do well if we broke the cycle of people going from the government into places of influence in the private sector, but that's what it is. I don't think that those individuals though are people who are anything but 100% honorable and I think they'll do a great job.

They will, I think, be under greater scrutiny because of the associations that you noted, but I think they're up for that total disclosure, complete severance and the ability to operate in the interest of the United States and not of their former clients. I give you a contrast, if you look at what, and again, I've spent most of my time on climate change and the environment these days, if you look at the people Trump brought in, he brought in a bunch of lobbyists for the fossil fuel industry and then what did they do? They proceeded to do favors for the fossil fuel industry--

Brian: Yes, but that's a low bar.

John: Well, I agree with that, that it's a low bar, but I think that that's a standard that you have to look at, are they tilting the playing field in any way to take to help what could be viewed as their former clients? I don't think they will, and I think they have to be held accountable to that. I know that reporters will be looking for that. I think they understand that they have to be squeaky clean when they're in office.

Brian: Republican Senator Tom Cotton says Biden's Homeland Security nominee "Alejandro Mayorkas was found by President Obama's Inspector General to be guilty of selling Green Cards to Chinese nationals on behalf of rich, Democratic donors." That's a quote from a Tom Cotton tweet. If that's true, that would make it hard to make him the guy in charge of immigration. Do you know if that's true?

John: No, it's not true. I think Tom Cotton says all kinds of things in his Twitter feed, most of them outrageous, but Ali Mayorkas, who will be the first immigrant to lead the department, did an outstanding job. I go back with him to the Clinton administration, where he's a US Attorney in San Diego. He served with distinction and honor for President Obama.

There is a program there that permits people to invest in the United States and receive Green Cards. That's a program that was enacted by the Congress that Senator Cotton serves in. I think if you have to look at what's wrong with immigration policy you might start at home, rather than casting false aspersions on the incoming nominee.

Biden: That's a policy that you probably think is right for a foreigner, I certainly heard of that before, where people with a certain amount of money to invest in the US, that becomes a criteria for a quick path to a Green Card, and a number of people from China have taken advantage of it. You're saying, if people look more closely at this, that they will not find that Mr. Mayorkas "sold green cards to Chinese nationals" in any way that is outside the parameters of that policy?

John: Yes, again, he didn't sell Green Cards. The Congress set up this program and if I had my druthers, I'd get rid of it. I think there's a point in having a skill base immigration system, so you're attracting talent to the United States. This seems to me to be outside the normal bounds of what we think of as good immigration policy, and yet it exists in the law and Congress has enacted it. I think that investors flock to the United States for a lot of reasons but I think getting the Green Card shouldn't be one of them.

Brian: Do you think that Biden can set up any kind of comprehensive immigration reform? He said he's going to propose something in his first hundred days that could get more attraction and let's assume a Republican Senate than past efforts did, even when they had John McCain and Marco Rubio and a few others on board. Would it be something that includes a more merit-based legal immigration system which is exactly what Trump was aiming for and what Tom Cotton wants? That along with the path to citizenship, I'm just making this up, but is there a road that you can imagine?

John: Well, I think he's certainly going to try to stimulate that conversation by proposing legislation in his first a hundred days, comprehensive reform that provides legal status for the people who are here and provides them with a path to citizenship so long as they meet certain criteria. I think that would be-- Obama tried to do it, obviously, President Bush tried to do it. In those days, they had support from the Senate and founded vexing to get it through the House of Representatives. In Bush's case, he had support in the House, but it was blocked on a filibuster in the Senate.

I think there has, in the past, been bi-partisan support for comprehensive reform, and I think Biden will make this a priority and try to see if he can find a group of Republicans in the Senate who he can work with towards that end. Whether McConnell wants to play ball with that or not, we'll have to wait and see, and we'll also have to wait and see the outcome of the two Georgia special Senate elections that are coming January 5th. If the Democrats win those seats, which is given that Biden won the state, quite plausible, then he's in a different situation with Chuck Schumer as leader of the Senate.

Brian: My guest, if you're just joining us, is John Podesta, who among many other things, was White House Chief of Staff under President Bill Clinton, leader of the Obama Biden transition team in 2008, chairman of the Hillary Clinton presidential campaign in 2016, and founder of the think tank Center for American Progress. We're talking about issues related to the Biden-Harris transition, and we can take a few phone calls for John Podesta, (646)-435-7280, anything pertaining to the transition or anything within reason that you always wanted to ask John Podesta, but you never had him over to dinner, (646)-435-7280 or tweet a question @brianlehrer.

I was just going to ask you about Neera Tanden, who you mentioned before, who's being nominated to run OMB, and who obviously, you know because she ran the Center for American Progress think tank with you, but we're getting a New York Tanden question on the phones. I will let Dan in Flatbush initiate this. Dan, you're on WNYC with John Podesta. Hello.

Dan: Hi. My question is, how is it that Neera Tanden has any credibility left? She pushed the Russiagate conspiracy for four years straight. She's worked diligently to defund progressive organizations that might hurt the profit motives of the DNC and [unintelligible 00:13:45] We're talking about the swamp of Washington, like Biden's bringing the swamp right back in.

Just to be clear, I hate Donald Trump. This is a this is a criticism coming from the left. We have to do better than this. All of my fears about the Biden Cabinet are coming true day after day. We're using these weak identity politics arguments as a defense against actual criticism of material policies of these people and it's terrifying. I'm just appalled, but not surprised.

Brian: Dan, let me just follow up with you in one way before John answers. If you're coming from the left as someone who hates Donald Trump, why did you call the Russiagate Conspiracy that in those terms, rather than a serious look at connections between Trump world and Russia? Why dismiss that one as a conspiracy?

Dan: Because in the end, they didn't find anything. There was some smoke, but nothing was proven.

Brian: I'm going to leave it there, so we don't go down that rabbit hole. Obviously, a lot of people would disagree with that on obstruction of justice and a bunch of other things, but John, putting that piece aside, what about all the other issues that Dan was raising there?

John: Well, look, I don't accept the premise of Dan's question. I think that Neera has been a strong supporter of progressive policy throughout her entire career in the Clinton administration. She was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act working for President Obama. She was with me at CAP and when I was the president and CEO. She took over when I stepped back from that role and has run CAP for the last 10 years.

She's been a champion for women's rights, for children's rights. She's a healthcare expert who has been really effective in working with mayors and governors during this COVID crisis to try to give them ideas about policies they can implement to try to crush the virus. She's deeply knowledgeable about the government, government's spending, and her priorities are right, I think, where they need to be, which is why people like Senator Elizabeth Warren, have been strong supporters of hers. I think she'll do a great job there.

I'm sure she's going to be in for a fight with some of the Republicans because she has taken them on because of their views in the Senate. I think she will be confirmed and she'll be a tremendous progressive voice in the administration. I think it signals that where Biden's politics are in essence to lean to the center-left of the party, not to the center.

Brian: Do you think she'll be one of the harder ones to confirm? What you just said indicates maybe you do think that.

John: Well, a couple of at least staffers for Republican senators have taken off on her in the press just in the hour since her name has come out, but I think that she's worked with the Senate, including Republicans, and I think if you look at her record, you look at her capacity to get the job done really, to put together a strong budget, to understand the priorities that are necessary to help get the country out of the current recession that has been caused by the mishandling of COVID, to work with the healthcare team. I think there's plenty to like, therefore Republicans as well as Democrats, I'm sure she'll have unified and solid support amongst the Democrats.

Brian: Marsha in Queens, you're on WNYC with John Podesta. Hello, Marsha?

Marsh: Oh, hi. My concern is the transition of the sitting president. He's in a corner right now. Everything is turning away from him for his plan to stay in place. I wonder if this "war" that appears to be starting between Iran and Israel, it's not there. Hopefully, it won't happen because that would allow this president who supports Israel to declare martial law in this country. Then the transition, is it possible that that wouldn't happen?

Brian: Wow. Well, that-- John, you go ahead, you can start.

John: Look, I think he's been so erratic. He's living in a world of self-pity and conspiracy these days and graceless in accepting the loss. It's, I think, doing damage really to the democracy by convincing a lot of people that somehow Biden's win was the product of massive fraud when there's absolutely zero evidence of that. Even the judges he appointed are throwing out this dumpster fire of election cases out of the door.

I think he is in a corner. He can't accept defeat and the interviews that he has done, the press conference he did on Thanksgiving reflect that. But worrying is that he is the commander-in-chief and his minions of the White House are going about, they fired secretary Esper, the secretary of defense. He's installed his apparatchiks in important positions, including into the defense department, and in other spots, senior spots in the government. I think it bears watching. I'm not relieving the worry of the caller because I'm worried too, actually,

Brian: Do you think that with the rumors that were around or press reports that Trump had considered at least an attack on Iran during the transition period, and I think when people read that, or maybe when sources said that to reporters, they were thinking more of some bombing run, but that this assassination of one of their top nuclear scientists, which Iran so far seems to be blaming on Israel, whether that's true or not, we don't know, could have actually been a Trump ordered assassination as either one of his last parting shots against Iran after leaving the nuclear deal and trying to leave Joe Biden in a difficult position, ratcheting up tensions just as the transition is taking place, or worse, trying to get us into a war in the way that the caller asks?

John: Well, look, I think that there's no way for us to know that, but it does call out the fact that it's only today that Joe Biden is getting access to the president's daily brief, the most important collection of intelligence and threat analysis facing the country. I'm sure that PDB is full of information, gleaned from our best intelligence sources about what happened or what we are likely to surmise about what happened in Iran. I would say, I think, again, to not go off too far in the direction of Mad King George, The Washington Post described the President over the weekend--

Brian: Oh, you said Mad King George, there's a funny satire out. You could find it on the web of Trump as King George from Hamilton. If people know that musical number, you could think about that, and if it's not overly creepy, you'll find it funny. John, I'm sorry, go ahead and finish your thought.

John: Anyways, his National Security Advisor, Robert O'Brien has indicated that he wants to work with the incoming Biden team, and I think the indications from the Biden team are that there is cooperation at every level and particularly from the career personnel in these national security and intelligence agencies. I think he will at least try to restrain whimsical action by the President, but again, the president is the president. He is the commander in chief.

I think hopefully the advice he's getting from his own team, including Mr. O'Brien, but also from Republicans on Capitol Hill is, don't do anything provocative on your way out the door. These are options that should be left to an administration that's been duly elected by the people of the United States.

Brian: One more call for John Podesta. Spencer in Berkeley Heights you're on WNYC. Hello, Spencer?

Spencer: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Mr. Podesta.

John: Morning.

Spencer: Thank you for taking my call. My question has to do with incoming President-elect Biden's very large tent for everyone to congregate under as an earlier caller had commented on criticizing from the further left perspective about how the supposed swamp is coming back to settle. How does president-elect Biden walk that fine line to make certain that the Democrats are in power for more than just one term to placate to further left further progressives that feel that the needle hasn't been moved enough versus the moderates and the anti-Trump Republicans that tend to vacillate back and forth because they feel that either because of marketing or personal preference, that the policies that are being implemented are into their liking.

President Obama came into power, one of the first things that he did, his major piece of legislation for public health care became a lightning rod that resulted in the change of the legislative composition for the Democrats that they've had to try and undo now for eight years, they were close to eight years and they're still in power, but certainly, that is tenuous depending upon what the President-elect does once he's in office.

John: Well, look, I think the most important thing is performance. He's got to get the virus under control. He's got to get-- Hopefully the positive news we're seeing from Pfizer, and Moderna means that we will have a vaccine out there, there are others coming along, that we can get back to some semblance of normal, put people back to work. Then make the investments he talked about during the campaign; investments in clean energy to deal with climate change and investments in childcare and eldercare, to make sure that families can succeed.

If he can get that done, and to some extent, particularly in the climate arena, he may have to do that with or without the help of the Congress. He may have to do a lot of that using the authorities he has and the authorities that agencies have to move that along. If he can show that the central promise of his campaign, which is "I'm going to care about the middle class, I'm going to improve your life. I'm going to get you to back to work, and where if you've been unemployed and where you are employed, I'm going to improve job standards and try to increase wages." If that's the focus and of his attention and he brings people in who ultimately are effective in getting that done. That's pretty good politics in the end of the day.

But I think if you're focused on Twitter, you're going to get lost. The one thing about Biden, and I think it surprised a lot of people through the primaries and through the general election is, he had a game plan, he stayed focused on it, he didn't get pushed around by what wars were going on on Twitter. He said, "I got a job to do, both to restore the decency of America, but to refocus on the big challenges, racial justice, the climate crisis, the health crisis, and the economic crisis," and that's what he's got to deliver on.

Brian: Last question then as a followup, if Republicans hold the Senate, is there any path to getting Mitch McConnell not to be a complete rejectionist like he was under Obama, leaving Biden to only do what he can do through executive action?

John: Well, I think there are places where even with them in control, with the Republicans in control-- again, I'm hopeful that we can win those Georgia seats, that'd be a lot better, but if we don't prevail there and Republicans hold onto the Senate, I think there are places like green infrastructure, certainly pandemic relief, support to reopen the school's, support to really relieve the burdens that have been caused by COVID-19 on the healthcare system overall. You know, McConnell knows Biden, but Biden knows McConnell too, and I think he knows how to pressure him into at least acting in the interest of the country once in a while.

McConnell's all about power but he can be influenced. I don't think a Republican-led Senate is going to do the same thing that a Democratic-led Senate would do. For example, Biden pledged to repeal the high-end Trump tax cuts, probably that's not in the offing if McCanell's the leader. Almost certainly can't get that done. I think there are investments that can be made, a big boost in R&D both in the health space as well as into energy and climate space. Those are things I think you can get the Republican Senate to go along with if you prioritize and you put pressure on them and you don't take no for an answer.

Brian: John Podesta, thanks so much for giving us some time this morning, we really appreciate it.

John: Thank you, Brian.

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