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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now as promised, a little more on the breaking news this morning because as we've been hearing, former White House counsel to Donald Trump, Pat Cipollone, has now agreed to a recorded interview with the January 6 commission will be videotaped. Which means they can play it during one of the televised sessions but he's not going to testify live in person. Reports are that it will be transcribed and videotaped, so, as I say, excerpts could show up in future public hearings.
Joining me to talk for a few minutes on the significance of this development, I'm joined by Kyle Cheney, senior legal affairs reporter for POLITICO. Hey Kyle, thanks for jumping on on very short notice. Welcome back to WNYC.
Kyle: Of course. Good to be with you, Brian. Thanks for having me.
Brian Lehrer: Remind everybody, why do we care about Pat Cipollone's testimony so much?
Kyle: For a lot of reasons. He was essentially the ubiquitous witness to almost all of the machinations that Donald Trump and his closest allies were undertaking in the weeks before January 6 and the attack on the Capitol, so he weighed in on a lot of the efforts. Appoints false electors to create a controversy where there wasn't one. To strategize around pressuring Mike Pence to try to overturn the election on January 6. He was in a lot of those meetings and advocated against them in many cases.
He was there, at least for part of the day on January 6 is our understanding, and according to the star witness Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was very concerned about the legality of a potential march to the Capitol that Donald Trump wanted to do. For so many reasons Pat Cipollone is a crucial witness.
Brian Lehrer: As I understand it he was subpoenaed last week following the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson, the former aide to Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, young woman who gave such dramatic testimony, probably because of what she said in this 25-second clip.
Cassidy Hutchinson: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of, "Please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen."
Congresswoman Liz Cheney: Do you remember which crimes Mr. Cipollone was concerned with?
Cassidy Hutchinson: In the days leading up to the 6th we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count.
Brian Lehrer: Cassidy Hutchinson last week with Congresswoman Liz Cheney during the questioning. Kyle, would you say that's what they wanted to know more about? Is there a particular follow-up question to that exchange that we can expect Pat Cipollone to be asked?
Kyle: Yes. I think that is certainly what prompted the urgency behind subpoenaing him last week. Although there's much more he can shed light on, I would suspect they're going to want to know about that conversation with Cassidy Hutchinson. Did it happen as she described it? Was he worried about legal exposure for the president or others in the White House for their roles in the January 6 rally and the ultimate march of the Donald Trump supporters to the Capitol which Trump, by many accounts, wanted to join but was dissuaded at the last moment despite his protest?
Yes, I would suspect that they're going to want to know all about the tick-tock, I guess, that did the minute-by-minute movements that Donald Trump made on that day, and his legal advice along the way.
Brian Lehrer: In pursuit of what? Are they trying to build a criminal case against Trump, or in pursuit of what exactly?
Kyle: Well, as you heard Cassidy Hutchinson say, there was concern within the White House that there was legal exposure here, whether it was obstructing justice, obstructing Congress, defrauding the public. These are crimes the Select Committee have already previously said they believe Donald Trump may have committed in his efforts to overturn the election. Yes, this would certainly serve multiple purposes. It would complete the narrative of that day, which they're trying to do, but also potentially factor into a future legal case against Trump or others in his orbit.
Brian Lehrer: Pat Cipollone has been like the Ghost of Christmas Past at the hearing so far. Not really there but a huge presence in people's minds, and as we heard from Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, on people's lips. Maybe it's worth talking about what the White House counsel is and who the White House counsel really represents. That's the job that John Dean had for Nixon before he turned state's witness in the Watergate investigation. What does White House counsel do? He wasn't Trump's lawyer like Rudy Giuliani was Trump's lawyer, so what does a White House counsel do?
Kyle: Well, I think what you've described is the crux of the issue. That Donald Trump viewed people like Pat Cipollone as personal lawyers. People who were out to defend his interests. In reality, the White House counsel essentially represents the presidency, the institution, the office, and those things aren't always in sync with the occupant of that office. We saw during the first impeachment Pat Cipollone acted as a major defender of Trump the person but while Trump was sitting in that office. Now Trump is not in that office, Cipollone is not in that office, and the question is how does he view his role today, particularly now that he's not in a sitting administration?
Brian Lehrer: I believe he has given already an informal interview of some kind to the committee. What are the implications of going on the record and going on videotape?
Kyle: Well, a few things. We've seen the committee effectively deploy some of his video testimony. In fact, I think they prefer it in some way because they could clip the most potent pieces of the testimony without any of the potential obfuscation or beating around the bush in certain areas. They can really hammer home and distill it to the most important moments. Number two is [crosstalk].
Brian Lehrer: In fact, I would imagine that a lot of Americans, even if they haven't watched the hearings, if they just watched little news bleeps-- Speaking of bleeps we'll remember one thing, and it's probably Attorney General William Barr calling Trump stolen election claims bleep, bleep, BS.
Kyle: Exactly. What Cassidy Hutchinson said in live testimony, which was extremely important, some of that stuff the committee only learned recently since Cipollone sat down for his informal interview. When they talk to him this week it's going to be asking him about certain things for the first time, so he may not have already previewed what he might say on some of these subjects.
Brian Lehrer: Has the fact that he was the White House counsel led him to decline testifying more fully previously because of attorney-client privilege?
Kyle: One thing I'm very eager to see is what the terms of this testimony on Friday will be because that is the core issue, is the institutional concerns about attorney-client privilege, executive privilege. There's a lot of dispute about whether a former president is entitled to any of that. As you said, the White House counsel is not the president's personal lawyer so where attorney-client privilege fits in is also a debatable point. If Pat Cipollone is concerned about those things the committee has to contend with them. I'm very curious what he's willing to answer here and what they've negotiated to see how fulsome he could be in his cooperation.
Brian Lehrer: This is going to be-- I'm seeing one report that says Friday, one report that at least says by Friday. Well, it's already Wednesday so it can only be today, tomorrow, or Friday. I'm seeing that the next public hearing is going to be next Tuesday at ten o'clock. Do you know anything about that?
Kyle: Yes. It's been noticed, it's on the calendar. We don't know the subject yet. We anticipate that it's probably about domestic extremism and its connections to the Trump White House. That's something the committee has talked about doing. They do want to do another hearing on Trump's actions within the White House on January 6th. That may be where Pat Cipollone's testimony comes into play, so that's when I'd expect to see the video from him. At least one hearing next week. No certain topic but probably domestic extremism.
Brian Lehrer: Well, I am certainly going to be interested to hear because I've been saying this is one of the biggest unanswered questions. How much did Trump know about the violence that was being planned in advance by the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, anybody? How much did he know about it? Which, if it was a lot or even maybe anything, really increases his culpability, but we don't know yet. Kyle Cheney, senior legal affairs reporter for POLITICO. Thanks for jumping back on.
Kyle: Thanks for having me.
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