[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For our last 15 minutes today, we're going to explore the surprising evolution of the word "ma'am" and how the term went from a sign of respect to a term that more women are finding offensive or just making them feel old. Do you remember the first time someone called you ma'am? Did you think, "Oh my God, am I a ma'am now?" For the women listening, if someone in a store says, "Thank you, ma'am," do you think they're being polite or insulting? Ma'am or Ma'am, who knew four letters and an apostrophe in the middle could cause so much controversy? 212-433-WNYC with your thoughts on how you use, or people use toward you, the word "ma'am." 212-433-9692.

With us now is Janelle Davis, senior producer at 60 Minutes over at CBS, who explored the history of the word "ma'am" in an article she wrote for CNN titled, "How 'ma'am' went from being a respectful word for some -- but polarizing for others." She worked at CNN for the past nine years, just for background, but recently went over to CBS. Congrats on the 60 Minutes job, Janelle, first of all, and thanks for taking the time to be with us today.

Janelle: Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I gather you wrote this article because you were outraged by being called ma'am in your mid-20s. Why did the term upset you?

Janelle: Unfortunately, I'm in my early 30s now, but yes, you're exactly right. This kept coming up as a conversation between my friends and I, and yes, it takes your breath away. You're like, "That's a word for my mother. Am I already at that age?" It's been surprising, and the more I talk to people, I am not alone. This is a common theme.

Brian Lehrer: Well, how would a young woman-- when you were in your 20s and at that point, or even now in your early 30s. If somebody wanted to address you who doesn't know you and wanted to use just a term of respect for another individual who appears to present as a woman, what should they say?

Janelle: That's the problem. There isn't a word for that. I talk to people on customer service, and some say "Just say nothing." Instead of saying, "Excuse me, sir. Excuse me, ma'am," you could just say, "Excuse me," and leave it at that, but that is a problem. I even joked in the story of like when are we going to bow and say, "Your excellency"? I mean, there isn't a word in the English language to fill this. It's a great question. There isn't one.

Brian Lehrer: I was trying to think of the first time that someone called me sir, and whether I had the same reaction. But you think this is different by gender, right?

Janelle: Absolutely. Because women have the word "miss" and "ma'am," and men only have "sir," you kind of get one ageless term. It's funny. In France they actually banned the word "mademoiselle," which is the "miss" in 2012 because they found it-- feminists were speaking out. They were like, "Why are women having two terms and making this unwanted transition from miss to ma'am, and men don't have to?" It takes a bit of the zing out of it. Also, as we all know, youth in women is emphasized more than in men, so then it adds another layer there.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think there's a generational divide when it comes to-

Janelle: Oh, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -the way people use "ma'am" or what they mean by it? Yes?

Janelle: Yes. This is a term that I talked to linguistics. They described it as age-graded, meaning how we use language changes as we age. Younger people now are seeing the term "ma'am" as more linked to nobility and gentry, times that weren't necessarily as inclusive. They're clapping back and using it in a more ironic way. There's this meme that comes around saying, "Ma'am, this is a Wendy's." It's kind of a way to ironically say an end of an unwanted run. It put people back in their place. It's kind of taken on this new usage.

Brian Lehrer: Catherine in Clinton Hill, you're on WNYC. Hi, Catherine. Thanks for calling in.

Catherine: Hi, Brian. First time, long time. I know the call-in was for women, but I wanted to share my perspective as a butch and trans-masculine person. I'm labeled as a woman probably about 90% of the time but don't identify that way, and so it makes me feel very dysphoric when people call me ma'am.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. You feel mis-gendered.

Catherine: Exactly. I think there's a lot of gender-neutral alternatives that folks in the service industry or in whatever other context can use instead of ma'am or ladies or whatever other term you might hear.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have some favorites to recommend?

Catherine: I think "folks" is a good alternative. Often if I'm with a group at a restaurant or something like that, it'll be, "What can I get for you, ladies?" and I think, "Hi, folks. How's it going?" might be a better option.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. President Biden would like that one, right? He always calls people folks. [laughter] But that's for a group. How about for an individual? Do you have any thoughts on that, Catherine? And then Janelle, I'll ask you.

Catherine: I think it's probably easier just to-- You could say something like, "next" rather than "Ma'am, move down" or something like that. I think there's just a lot of ways to avoid gendered language altogether, particularly for folks who might be more ambiguous presenting.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks, Catherine. Keep calling us. Reaction to that, it certainly eliminates the whole world of non-binary or trans-people when we gender somebody who we don't know by calling them the way they appear to us.

Janelle: Yes. It is so challenging because it's often used in customer service, often on the phone. You're now asking someone to guess your gender over the phone. Then with women, they don't have to guess your age and then use the right word accordingly. Wow, what a mess. Yes. But, again, I've scratched my head. I think "folks" is a great suggestion but it's confusing.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Folks, again, that's good for a group. How about for an individual? Catherine gave the example of something I've heard in restaurants and so forth, or online in a store when they just say, "Next. Can I help the next?" At first, I thought that was kind of weird and impersonal. "Can I help the next?" The next what? I'm a human being." But I understand where it's coming from in this respect. Is there a word that could follow "next" that refers to the person that's not gendered?

Janelle: I don't really know. I ended the article saying if someone calls you ma'am you could clarify and say, "Yes, Janelle," and help them fill in the blank. Obviously sometimes there's context, and you can obviously refer to their title if that's something to do. I think sometimes just ending it with, "Excuse me," and just dropping the pronoun or the title altogether is just your best way out. It is hard.

Brian Lehrer: Jane in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jane.

Jane: Do you mean Jane?

Brian Lehrer: I mean you, yes.

Jane: Oh, hi. Good. Hi, Brian. Listen, I am infuriated by this. First of all, it reeks of ageism. People who are telling themselves that they are afraid to be old. It has to come from what is the intention of the speaker? They're being polite. When you take away this egotistical, "How do I feel? I feel old," this society, it's bugging me. There's nothing wrong with "ma'am." It's another word we're now trying to censor and change. What is the intention of the speaker? To give you respect. "Oh, that makes me feel old." If somebody gives me their seat on the subway, or even when I was a younger person and they called me ma'am, I consider that lovely.

Brian Lehrer: Jane, thank you. Janelle?

Janelle: Yes, and this came up a lot. The comments to the story were shockingly disrespectful at times. Obviously, this caller was very kind, but a lot of people said that. I think the thing to think about is you have no control of your words after they leave your mouth, so the recipient might not respond well. Pay attention to how people are responding, and is someone hearing it? Yes. Sometimes how it is said is more important than what is said. If someone is saying it kindly and acting kindly towards me, I'm going to respond accordingly.

One of the things that came up is the term, "Oh, wow. You're so articulate." Someone might be saying that very kindly, but it might be heard by the recipient as, "Why are you making that assumption? I'm not articulate." I think there's a lot of layers to that.

Brian Lehrer: You got a lot of hate in response to your piece?

Janelle: Oh yes. Oh yes. I have never been flooded with more responses to a story, which is really interesting, I think. For people, especially in the South, this is something that traditionally they're raised on, so it feels very personal and it's very loaded.

Brian Lehrer: We've heard from some callers about being called ma'am. Here's somebody with the other perspective, I think, of working in a café where people might call their customers by one thing or another. It's Sean in White Plains. Sean, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Sean: Hello, Brian. Longtime listener, first-time caller. Yes, I work in a small café. When I first started there, I used the word "ma'am." When referring to female customers who came in, I just would use "ma'am." I would see the look on their faces and even get some backlash saying, "Oh, don't call me ma'am." I just transitioned into calling young ladies miss, and the response has been overwhelmingly positive. Some people even appreciate it that I'd rather call them miss than ma'am.

Going back to a substitute word for an individual, at least if they-- If it's clearly that they do identify as a female person not going into the whole gender specifics, then "miss" for an individual seems to work perfectly in my line of work.

Brian Lehrer: Is it by age that people are appreciating being called miss? Are you saying that's particularly the case with younger women?

Sean: If they're clearly female, then I refer to them as "miss." I mean, I refer to everyone as "miss."

Brian Lehrer: Then any age. Any age.

Sean: Any age, yes. Any age. But these older women are certainly more appreciative of it.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Thank you very much. Of course, referring to the earlier caller, not everybody who appears to us as one thing is necessarily that thing. Just reminding everybody of that. How about "miss," Janelle? That's another gendered and loaded word because it implies a marital status.

Janelle: It does. It's funny. Several people I spoke to were like, "Please just call me "miss." I long for the days of being "miss." I think that answer does make sense. Then there's, again, the other side of it of I'm being referred to something younger. I want to be seen as a strong, intelligent woman. Is being "miss" a little belittling? Like I'm a girl. Overall though, I think if you ask most women, they'd prefer the "miss" over the "ma'am."

Brian Lehrer: Uh. Interesting.

Janelle: So I'm not surprised by his call.--

Brian Lehrer: I think Wendy in Manhattan might be an exception to that. Right, Wendy? You're on WNYC. Hello?

Wendy: Yes. Hi, Brian Lehrer. It's great to always listen to you and all your guests. Yes actually. Before we heard the gentleman speak, the sir, I had called in to say, "I'm [unintelligible 00:12:08]. I'm 52." I always considered ma'am as a move toward Ms., which I think is progress. If someone called me Ms., I think even at 30 I would've been offended from what you guys were just talking about. You guys, there we go. It's all loaded in here. [chuckles] I would've been offended if someone called me "miss," because it's like not only is it premarital, but virginal. It's given to all kinds of weird stuff. I've always seen "ma'am" as more like a "Ms."

I do think, just to be also-- I mean, I think we might be making much of something that's not much. I think the point about binary is really, really important. If we're talking about just the word "ma'am" versus another gendered word, I would say strongly I think we've moved toward progress. I do think if you're 30 and you get called ma'am and you're just not liking it because you're surprised that you're older, I'm just going to say like, "Guess what? You are older. You're mature, you're older, and it's a good thing." I didn't know it was going to fit into the prior call as such, but that's my take 52 progressive "Yay, I'm a ma'am." [laughs] It's okay.

Brian Lehrer: Wendy, thank you, ma'am. [laughter] Since you kind of asked for it. You want to give any closing thought here? I'm also thinking about geographical differences.

Janelle: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: She referred to "you guys." I've moved away from "you guys" to "you all," almost the Southern "y'all." Listener Doot Wrangler on Twitter writes, "Grew up on the East Coast, both Northeast and the South. Up here, "ma'am" is viewed negatively, but I was down South, it was a sign of respect. Every kid I know call their mom "ma'am." We have 20 seconds for a last word, Janelle.

Janelle: I'd say pay attention to context. Context matters and language is constantly evolving. This is a word that either we're going to find a replacement in the future or we got to just communicate how we want to be referred to as it evolves constantly.

Brian Lehrer: Janelle Davis's "Ma'am" article is on the CNN site. Thanks for talking this through with us. We could have taken calls all afternoon.

Janelle: Well, thank you for having me. What a great conversation.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today. Thanks a lot for listening. Stay tuned for All Of It.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.