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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. There is potentially really big news this morning from Senator Kirsten Gillibrand who will be on the show later this hour. Gillibrand and Congresswoman Cori Bush of Missouri, have you heard this yet, are introducing a resolution to declare the Equal Rights Amendment has been ratified, and officially should become the 28th Amendment to the US Constitution. The ERA which bans discrimination on the basis of sex passed Congress long ago, and was ratified by enough states to become law, but it depends on your interpretation whether the final states ratified it in time to count. Gillibrand's resolution would declare that yes, it did.

Now, part of the hope here, as I understand it, is that that would provide a new constitutional basis for restoring abortion rights nationally, or politically Republican senators running for re-election next year will be on the record as voting no, if they vote no, for equal rights for women. The New York Times today cites a recent Pew Research Center poll done in 2020, which found the concept of an ERA has overwhelming public support, around 80%. Go ahead, Republicans, vote against this at your peril, is basically the dare here from Senator Gillibrand. This is being introduced officially this afternoon, is what I'm told, and Senator Gillibrand will join us to reveal it to you first right here in about a half hour.

We will also talk to her at that time about a bill she's introducing after this week's flood rains knocked out all that Metro North and Amtrak train service. Apparently, when Congress passed the bipartisan infrastructure bill, they included funding to make highways more resilient to climate-related flooding, but not mass transit. Gillibrand has a Resilient Transit Act. It's another challenge for some Republicans who will vote for automobile infrastructure, but mass transit not so much. If you know some of this history, we've talked about this on the show before, it goes all the way back at least to Ronald Reagan, who made it one of the cornerstone policies of his presidency in the 1980s to cut mass transit funding.

Public transit felt like big government to Reagan, plus he talked about the individual cars representing American freedom, and didn't want mass transit advocates crimping that. That brings us to our first topic today before Senator Gillibrand comes on. There is big mass transit news for our area. The federal government announced a nearly $7 billion transit grant to keep work going on the Gateway Tunnel project. That's two additional rail tunnels under the Hudson between New York and New Jersey.

As reported by Gothamist, the funding covers less than half of the project's estimated $16.8 billion cost, but the commitment represents the largest federal grant ever given for a US mass transit project. Take that, Ronald Reagan. New York and New Jersey have already agreed to split the remaining cost. That's one piece of mass transit news. Another, relevant to where those trains from New Jersey wind up in Manhattan, is that Governor Hochul is now promising that there will be a new Penn Station even without the private office tower development that was supposed to help pay for it under former Governor Cuomo's plan.

New office buildings are less in demand now, as most of you know, in the new remote work era, hybrid work era, but Hochul is promising to find the money for the transit terminal upgrade anyway. We'll talk about that and more now with Clayton Guse, assistant editor on the WNYC and Gothamist accountability desk who reported on the Gateway Tunnel funding news.

Clayton is also a former Daily News transit reporter whose final article for the News before he graduated to Gothamist last year was called Staten Island ferryboat owned by Pete Davidson, Colin Jost, full of asbestos, roaches, say ex-crew members. That was in October last year. Clayton has come a long way since covering Saturday Night Live ferryboat troubles. Hi, Clayton. Welcome to the show.

Clayton Guse: Hi, Brian, and thanks for the walk down memory lane.

Brian Lehrer: Can you remind everyone of the basics of the Gateway Tunnel project? What is it? Why do advocates say we need it?

Clayton Guse: The program would build the first new rail tunnels beneath the Hudson in more than a century. It's core to expanding capacity for Amtrak and New Jersey Transit across the Hudson. It's the center of a larger program called the Gateway Program whose cost exceeds $30 billion. These tunnels represent almost 17 billion of that.

Brian Lehrer: This has been in the works for a long time. Wasn't it already a plan under the name The ARC Tunnel when Chris Christie became governor way back in 2009?

Clayton Guse: Yes, this is essentially a resurrection over the last decade of what Christie killed, ARC, access to the region's core, which also would have built two new rail tunnels under the Hudson for the first time since the Pennsylvania Railroad did it in the early 20th century. Christie killed that project in 2010 worried about the funding split, potential cost overruns that may have come with building it, and effectively pulled the plug back then.

Brian Lehrer: That was because of not enough federal funding or potential cost overruns, as you say, or did he just want to be more associated with cars in a car state like New Jersey like Ronald Reagan did once upon a time?

Clayton Guse: I don't know if he was just trying to be associated by cars. I think there are a lot of transit riders that come in from New Jersey who'd want that additional capacity.

Brian Lehrer: How did it get revived?

Clayton Guse: Two ways. Folks like Senator Schumer and others started to reform the ARC Project under the banner Gateway Program in 2011, so right after Christie had killed it, but then it really started to pick up steam in 2012 after Hurricane Sandy. Sandy gave officials their new and current justification for the project, which is that the old 110 plus year old-- well, now 110 plus year old Hudson River tunnels got damaged by flooding during Sandy. The new justification for the project is to build two new tunnels, so that they can run trains through there in order to close the old ones to repair them.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, who has a question or an opinion about the Gateway Tunnel project or the redevelopment of Penn Station, which we're also going to get into, or the Second Avenue Subway extension, which we're also going to get into? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. For New Jersey commuters, would this make you any more or less likely to drive or take the train once this is completed if it means more frequent rail service, or anything else anyone wants to say or ask about Penn Station redevelopment, the Gateway Tunnel project, or the Second Avenue Subway extension, 212-433-WNYC. Call or text, 212-433-9692.

We're here with Clayton Guse, assistant editor on the WNYC and Gothamist accountability desk. He reported, maybe you saw the article on Gothamist, on the Gateway Tunnel funding news. By the way, maybe it's fair to say Chris Christie turned out to be right in a certain respect or at least strategically right because I think this is a larger share of federal funding for the project than the share that he rejected way back when, if you know.

Clayton Guse: Right. It's also that the cost of the project has gone up by upwards of 4 billion to 16.8, but yes, 6.8 billion is no small chunk of change. Like you said, I think, earlier at the top of the show, it's the largest federal grant given ever for a US mass transit project through what is now called, I guess, the New Starts Program or the capital investment grants. What's really interesting is that the previous largest federal grant ever issued was for the East Side Access project, which just opened this year as Grand Central Madison, that received 2.6 billion back in the 2000s. This is more than double. The Gateway Tunnel grant is more than double what was given East Side Access.

Brian Lehrer: If you have a long time to take a hike, you can get off the Long Island Railroad at Grand Central Station and wind up on the four, five and six train platform, but that's another story.

Clayton Guse: You sure can.

Brian Lehrer: This is grant money. It's new. Is it all the money that's going to be needed for the Gateway Tunnel project? This is now a 100% prepaid deal or not yet.

Clayton Guse: No. What this news means in a certain sense is that the federal government has vowed to put up 6.8 billion for this 16.8 billion project through this grant. There may be other sources of federal funding, but [unintelligible 00:09:29] that, New York and New Jersey have an agreement to split the remaining costs, so billions coming from governments on each side of the river. What it also does is it locks in the grant at 6.8 billion. If you do see cost overruns, the very thing that Chris Christie worried about, and the very thing that you saw happen over a decade or more on the East Side Access project, New York and New Jersey will have to cover any increases in cost for this project, for these tunnels.

Brian Lehrer: You reported that the original tunnels date all the way back to 1903 when construction began, and they opened in 1910. It took seven years to build those original tunnels, and those are some old tubes. How long before these new tunnels are open?

Clayton Guse: That's a fun part of this story. 12 years. 120 years later, it'll take 12 years to build the tunnels. Obviously, they didn't have the same technology as they do now back 120 years ago. They pressurized the tubes as they built them from either side which obviously came with work hazards, and many people got what's known as the bends which was apparently a pretty painful disease or condition to have.

Brian Lehrer: They have more modern tunneling technology now, which should, in theory, make things go faster, but you're saying they also have better workplace safety standards?

Clayton Guse: That's it. Both of those are factors.

Brian Lehrer: What would the effects on the larger region's economy presumably be? I see Amtrak is saying this isn't just about commuting between New Jersey and Manhattan. They'll be able to run more trains on the whole Northeast corridor, that's Washington to Boston. Have you reported on the potential economic impact of that?

Clayton Guse: Yes. It's a little complicated. One thing that they're saying is that if the old tunnels fail, if one of them crumbles, if one of them becomes unusable, that will have a tens of billions of dollars of impact to the region's economy, simply because people can't move between Manhattan and the continental United States as effectively. Some of the other factors is that this is going to create tens and tens of thousands of jobs, they say.

It's a massive project. Also, eventually, they hope that it helps make things easier for both the Northeast corridor Amtrak, but really New Jersey Transit, really. If ridership starts to return, the goal is to really boost the capacity and run more trains so that there aren't the kind of painful commutes that, especially pre-pandemic New Jersey Transit commuters got used to.

Brian Lehrer: On that prospect of damage and being able to continue to operate trains, it's interesting that we're having this conversation this week after the storms of Sunday knocked out a lot of train service, more Metro North, but also Amtrak between parts of New York and Albany, which isn't exactly the same line, but it's a reminder of the kinds of things that could happen and then either all train services stop because nothing can get through, or there are alternative ways to go, at least in the case of trains that go under the Hudson.

We were going to have this conversation anyway this week because of the new tunnel funding and the Penn Station announcements that we'll get to, but I think the news of this week brings it home, doesn't it?

Clayton Guse: It sure does. The flooding events that are threatening transit infrastructure across the region are becoming more and more commonplace.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Spencer in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Spencer.

Spencer: Good morning, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I used to commute into New York City. I stopped doing that about a year ago. I can say that I enjoyed taking the train from Maplewood. It was a Midtown direct. It was definitely an improvement over trying to deal with any of the tunnels, but it was occasionally an inconvenience or a pain because of the frequency of the trains.

If you're missing anything during the rush hour windows, it comes down to about an hour between trains. The idea of more tunnels and a greater train frequency definitely would be an improvement. My concern, or question is, a common adage around the Garden State is by the time the Garden State Parkway was finished, it was no longer capable of accommodating all of the demand of the drivers on the road. If it's going to take 12 years for these tunnels to be built, how long after that is the general commuting population going to adjust that those tunnels themselves then do not provide adequate capacity for everyone who will hopefully then be taking the train?

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Right. Is it going to be obsolete by the time it's built? Clayton, have you heard that question asked to any of the officials involved, and have they answered anything like that?

Clayton Guse: To a degree. A key part of capacity for the tunnels is that the tunnels that they're building could run into existing Penn. There's a way to do that, but it doesn't give the capacity boost that I think a lot of riders want and certainly will want as riders return from the pandemic slump as-- 12 years from now. What a lot of officials are dancing around is the concept of expanding Penn a block south into what's called the Block 780. It's what was included in the ARC Program more than 10 years ago. It's a central issue that's very controversial that officials are dancing around right now. It would require essentially the demolition of a block south of 31st Street between Seventh and Eighth Avenues.

That would allow Amtrak and New Jersey to build more platforms so that when all four tunnels, the two old ones, and the two new ones are operational, they could run them at nearly double the capacity of what they have now, which is about 24 trains an hour each way during rush hour. That's the question that they're dancing around. No one wants to touch Schumer-Nadler's hard-to-get [unintelligible 00:15:48] down on this.

Hochul is avoiding the issue. Everyone is avoiding the issue. That's a central piece of this in the Gateway Program, and that's to expand capacity, you need additional platforms. The current plan to have additional platforms is to tear down Block 780, just south of current Penn Station.

Brian Lehrer: Spencer, thanks for raising the question. Now, Clayton, you mentioned one piece of this project, which is contentious, and that's how to clear the space where these additional trains from New Jersey are supposed to come in on the south end of Penn Station. Tell me if this text that we got from a listener is relevant to that. It says, "Hello, WNYC." Then he gives his name, architect in Manhattan. "Since you are discussing Penn Station area redevelopment, I wonder if anyone knows if there could be a plan to save an important artwork in this area."

Then the person writes, "The monastery of St. John the Baptist just south of the station has sold a building to a developer, but an amazing stained glass piece by Benoît Gilsoul remains there." It goes on from there. Tell us about the controversy over clearing the space for these incoming trains.

Clayton Guse: There is a church on that block. That's a key part of this controversy. It's not just the building south of it. If we're talking about digging out these tunnels, razing a block, and building a new station there on top of what Hochul and MTA leaders already planned to do at the existing Penn Station, you're looking at that area of Midtown being a loud construction site for years and years and years while they develop this. That I think is another key part of the controversy that has some of the locals who live there very concerned.

Brian Lehrer: This listener adds, "This artist has important work at the UN and other places in town. Also, it would be a shame if this unique large stained glass piece was lost in the redevelopment. Perhaps you could use your bully pulpit to publicize the issue and find out whether any public or private entity might be interested to preserve it." We've passed that along.

Any public or private entity interested in preserving that artwork at the monastery of St. John the Baptist just south of Penn Station, there you go, alerted by a listener who's a Manhattan architect. I know other people are on that too. Let's talk about Penn Station redevelopment overall. So many starts and stops on that, it seems. The latest being a decoupling from a private office building project at the site that was going to help fund it with the development company Vornado. What happened to that?

Clayton Guse: The plan was to help fund it, fund a percentage of redeveloping current Penn Station, which is now being treated as a separate operation from the Gateway Tunnels. Hochul, and before that, Governor Cuomo, had planned to allow for 10 new skyscrapers, most of them owned by the developer Vornado, to be built around the area. Instead of those paying property taxes, that money would go towards financing Penn Station redevelopment. Some months ago, Vornado CEO gets on a call and says, "People aren't returning to offices. This doesn't make much sense to build all these skyscrapers now." That plan was shelved.

Hochul comes out recently and says, "Okay, instead, State will pay for this, Federal government will pay for this." Amtrak may be party to that. The Penn Station is owned by Amtrak. What the MTA is looking to do there is-- They're a tenant in Penn Station as Long Island Railroad. What the MTA is looking to do there would be tantamount to me as a renter really sprucing up my apartment whether or not my landlord wants to.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Governor Hochul on June 26th officially uncoupling Penn Station and redevelopment from Vornado. Here we go.

Governor Hochul: We'll get that done over time. I no longer want that to be a delay. A delay to this process which is moving forward today.

Brian Lehrer: Now, those seven seconds, Clayton, were interesting for a few reasons. One, because it begs the question of where'll the money come from now if Vornado is pulling out because of the declining demand for new office towers. The other is there were hecklers in the background who don't like what's going to happen to the neighborhood, right?

Clayton Guse: Yes, they're very upset. There's been a long-- As this project has gone on, as planning has gone underway, the louder the voices have become locally, who, laying out before, don't want to necessarily see this turn into a construction site, and certainly don't want the Block 780 project to be done nearby. It is hammering out. The financing of this is still underway and the full design and engineering plans for what the MTA hopes to do to Penn Station.

Brian Lehrer: Funny enough, perhaps we have-- Let's see, where did that go? Yes, here's a text from a listener who writes simply, "Please explain why the recently beautifully renovated Penn Station needs another renovation." [laughs] Well, I don't know that, having been there recently, I would call it beautifully renovated, but it's at least partially renovated, right?

Clayton Guse: Yes. The north end where the Long Island Railroad runs has a new corridor, and it's pleasant. That was paid for by the MTA. That's the Long Island Railroad side. If you're a New Jersey rider, you still have to go into, I think what people refer to as the pit on the southern end of the station where people wait impatiently for their trains and rush to the tracks. I guess to answer the larger question, they did redo the north end concourse. It was in connection with the state's plan and state's execution of Moynihan Train Hall because the whole corridor connects across the street, across eighth Avenue to Moynihan, where you can get on a Long Island Railroad or an Amtrak train, but not New Jersey Transit.

The plan here would be to do an extra-- It's tantamount to poking holes in the side of Penn Station to bring in light and make it more navigable without removing the garden, without removing Madison Square Garden, which is set on top of it [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: We'll get to Madison Square Garden, another contentious piece of this in a minute. Yes, I guess they raised the ceiling. It used to be such a low [unintelligible 00:22:39] there in Penn Station, which was really bad. Now at least it feels a little more spacious, although I don't think to my eye they've really expanded the walkways in the main Long Island Railroad part of Penn Station. Along that concourse, yes, if they had light there, that would be better. I know there's still a lot of work going on. Susan in Morristown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Susan.

Susan: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. Hey, I never knew it was called the pit, but thank you for letting me know that. It's exactly what it feels like when you're downstairs in that New Jersey space waiting for your train. You called it [unintelligible 00:23:22] be painful before. That is the exact word that I have used hundreds of times. I was a three day a week commuter from Morristown for maybe five years before the pandemic. I would have to take a train, not just one earlier, sometimes two earlier to make sure I could get in. Many times I didn't make it to appointments I had. I actually thought of leaving the state simply so I could get to work. I was going to move to Westchester [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: You mean moving to the New York side?

Susan: Yes, moving to the New York side. I did find a solution eventually. I drive to Newark and spent an extra $26 for parking for the day because the trains run there through Penn Station Newark as opposed to my train line. Solved the problem, but kind of an expensive solution. There's what we call one tracking, when we're told there's only one track in and out. Amtrak gets preference, then there's heat, and then there's cold, and then there's trees. It's never a good ride. Now I only go in because I'm still home based and nearing retirement. Otherwise, I probably would have still moved to New York or somewhere.

I've gone in at least two, three times a month since things have reopened. I have not gotten there on time yet. People were missing their shows when I went in about two weeks ago, missed dinners. We're all just chatting [unintelligible 00:24:47] camaraderie around New Jersey Transit and its problems. Yes, they need to do something. [laughs] I was happy to see the project make the news again this week. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting. I think you're the poster commuter for [laughs] why this is all going on. I'm thinking about your commute. Wow, you drive from Morristown to Newark to get a train into Manhattan because that's the most reliable way. Clayton, there we go. Maybe that's all anybody needs to know about why they're doing this.

Clayton Guse: This project would at least help double the capacity, or at least put New Jersey on the way to doubling the capacity. Obviously, there's still a lot of unquestioned answers as to how New Jersey Transit is investing in their own capital plant to make service on their side of the river more reliable. Because this project is run by the Gateway Development Commission, which was formed by New York and New Jersey as a way to build this. The railroads are still operated independently by each state. New Jersey Transit by New Jersey, Long Island Railroad, MTA by New York.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a text from a listener who writes, "Won't the need for transit be reduced as we all embrace more remote work? Might we need fewer tunnels, tracks, and platforms in the future?"

Clayton Guse: That's the whole question. It's a question that a lot of people are asking as East Side Access opened, expanding Long Island Railroad capacity to Grand Central Madison or beneath Grand Central. I think that the prognosticators [chuckles] who look into this expect that some pre-pandemic transit ridership pattern returns in the coming years, whether it's 5 or 10. I think that the predictions certainly show that it'll return to pre-pandemic levels by the time these tunnels are expected to be open. It's a question of where does it go from there? What does the service look like, and what does the ridership look like?

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about Madison Square Garden in relation to all of this. A listener texts, "Curious if MSG will ever start paying taxes again. Is this to be included in negotiations, et cetera? Thank you. I do see the story that the Independent Budget Office just the other day reported that the state has lost around a billion dollars, that's New York state, in tax revenue over the last 40 years because of subsidies it gave to MSG." Is that being revisited?

Clayton Guse: That would have to be revisited at state law. The city planning commission, the other news this week is that they voted to extend MSG's permit to operate there by another 10 years. They did that just 10 years ago. This time they're trying to say, "Okay, you may need to give up some property for our Penn Station redevelopment. Okay, we want you to participate at the table, but the tax break which was formed in '82 as the Nixon Rangers were threatening to leave town, would have to be reformed at state law." It's almost a billion dollars. I think as I pointed out to my colleagues, that's a billion dollar tax break and no Nicks titles over that period of time.

Brian Lehrer: Some advocates have wanted MSG to have to move to facilitate Penn Station renovation as good as it could be made. Here's an editorial from your old pals at your former employer, the Daily News. This is the headline on one of their editorials yesterday. Madison Square Garden is a costly distraction to truly fixing Penn Station. Why do people think that? What's the idea of moving Penn Station? Why does it matter what goes on up there on the stage or the sports courts?

Clayton Guse: For the last 60 years, it's made it an unpleasant experience for riders. The current Penn is not easy to navigate. It's the busiest train station in the country, and yet it's maybe the least pleasant to be in or one of the least pleasant to be in. The talk about MSG and the redevelopment of current Penn, I think what my former colleagues are saying is that it has to be put in the context of the larger goals to run the Gateway Tunnels into Block 780. Governor Hochul, a year and a half ago, decoupled those ideas. Andrew Cuomo, when he was governor, had a concept called the Empire Station complex that would combine the two.

It would redevelop Penn, but also extend it underground, south into the block south of 31st Street. What Hochul did shortly after she took over in Albany was say, "Let's decouple these projects. Let's focus on Penn." What some people are saying is-- this is an overall project. This is all party to what's going on with Gateway and what may have to happen, what officials expect to happen with Block 780.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe if the Nicks would win a title more than once every 50 years, there wouldn't be so much opposition. That's another show. We have about a minute left. We have Senator Gillibrand standing by to break her big Equal Rights Amendment news. Last thing really quickly, Clayton, the Second Avenue Subway extension, talk about train tunnels that take a long time to build. What's the news there?

Clayton Guse: The law almost mythical 2nd Avenue Subway is-- the MTA is moving forward with phase two of it. Moving it, which extends what's now the cue line from 96th Street and Second Avenue up to two new stations and hooks around to a new mega station beneath Lexington Avenue, and 125th Street. It's been promised to these people, this community on and off for 90, 100 years. I don't have the exact date of when it was first proposed.

Now the MTA is moving forward with seeking out engineers to be able to do this work. This is another big project and it's going to take an estimated seven years to construct. The latest federal estimates have the cost at $7.7 billion. The MTA is in the process, almost secured $3.4 billion from the federal government to cover those costs. The latest news from the MTA is that they're planning a very big overhaul of East Harlem, buying up property, building new stations along that 125th Street area as part of that extension, but more plans and engineering still to come on that.

Brian Lehrer: Clayton Guse, former Daily News transit reporter, now assistant editor on the WNYC and Gothamist accountability desk, who reported recently on the Gateway Tunnel funding news. His first time on the show. Clayton, welcome, belatedly, to WNYC and nice debut. We'll talk.

Clayton Guse: Great. Thanks so much, Brian.

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