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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. The thing that primarily got Donald Trump elected the first time in the first place, the only time, was his stand on immigration, his false assertion, that Mexican immigrants tended to be criminals, the proposals to build the border wall and mount a deportation force that came with it and his proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the United States, were the centerpieces of the 2016 campaign.

In office, he's gone as far as politics and the courts have allowed him to go to stop immigration, legal as well as illegal, in its tracks. With Joe Biden, preparing to govern, how much Trump policy can or should he reverse with the stroke of the pen? How much does he want to, and how much further can Biden go on the unresolved immigration issues, that he needs Congress for, that got us here in the first place?

What the George Bush, John McCain, and even Lindsay Graham, Republicans plus the Democrats used to call Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Let's get an immigration advocate's take and see what advocates are prioritizing and think is possible. With us now is Anu Joshi, vice president of policy for the New York Immigration Coalition. Anu, great to have you on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Anu Joshi: Thanks so much, Brian. Let's talk about today.

Brian: What can Joe Biden do on day one?

Anu: There are a number of things that he can do. I think first and foremost is rolling back all of the horrible anti-immigrant policy changes, some of what you just mentioned, that the Trump administration has spent four years implementing. We expect on day one that President Biden will immediately re-instate full Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA, that he will immediately reinstate the Temporary Protected Status program, TPS for close to 350,000 people living in this country who are currently at risk.

We also expect that he will immediately institute a moratorium on immigration enforcement. For the last four years, and frankly, for the last 30 years, we've seen just increasing amounts of money and influence given to immigration enforcement agencies like ICE and Customs and Border Protection, and we need a reset. We need to really look at how these agencies have really just gone out of control, become rogue agencies that terrorize American families. We expect Biden to really institute an immediate moratorium on immigration enforcement activities.

Brian: When you say a moratorium on immigration enforcement activity, that sounds so sweeping and, of course, the Republicans run against the Democrats by saying, "Oh, you elect Joe Biden or other Democrats they're going to have open borders." What's the difference between open borders and no immigration enforcement?

Anu: There's a big difference. I think one, and what I do want to say is that I think this election was a repudiation of Trump's anti-immigrant policies. People might say that, but voters clearly spoke and said, no, this is not what we want and the leaders that are making decisions for our country. Two, I think what we've seen over the last four years is how our immigration enforcement agencies rather than trying to keep Americans safe are actually really trying to terrorize what are American families.

This could look like immediately putting a pause on all deportations because we know right now people are being deported without access to attorneys, without access to real due process. People who have been New Yorkers, who have lived here for decades, who have families here and are not able to really make their case in immigration court and they're being deported.

We also know that people are being held in immigration detention for months and years for no reason, that they're being stripped from their families and held in this detention, vast under-resourced criminal detention system where COVID is spreading, for no reason, and that on day one President Biden could immediately order the release of immigrants being held in detention while they wait for their day in court.

I think along the border what we seen as an out of control border patrol. We have laws in place that govern how people can enter this country, how people can apply for asylum in this country, which is their right under multiple international and domestic laws. Those are completely being ignored and, in some cases, flouted. It's really just a return to upholding people's rights and ability to really fully embrace those rights within our current system,

Brian: The heart wrenching and outrageous practice of separating parents from children, children from their parents at the Southern border. Part of that, the so-called cages, goes back to the Obama-Biden administration. If they just turn back the clock on that policy to the day before Trump, where would they actually be and how would you feel about it?

Anu: Not great. We need more than just what was happening before Trump. We need a more expansive, morally just vision for what our immigration system could look like. We've heard President-elect Biden on the campaign trail talking about how they didn't get it right back then in 2014, when President Obama dramatically expanded family detention for immigrants in this country, it was a moral failure. We know that, of course, under president Trump, that program was quadrupled, exploited, families were ripped apart, kids were held in cages apart from their parents, which was not happening under the Obama-Biden administration.

We saw the implementation of the zero-tolerance policy at the Southern border, which required the criminal prosecution of anyone attempting to seek asylum in the United States. We expect more. You're absolutely right, we don't want to just go back. We know that the Obama-Biden administration deported more people than any other presidential administration in history and so we expect more. We think that the American people expect more and have really made that clear.

Brian: Listeners, if you, or someone you know is currently being affected by the country's immigration laws and immigration policies, we invite your calls on what you want Biden administration to do in this area. 646-435-7280. Again, if you or someone you know is currently being affected by the country's immigration laws and immigration policies, we invite your calls on what you want a Biden administration to do in this area. 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 with Anu Joshi, vice president of policy at the New York Immigration Coalition.

I want to talk about comprehensive immigration reform. Let me read something to you from the endorsement of Lindsey Graham for reelection last month by the South Carolina newspaper, The Post and Courier, "Mr. Graham was an early proponent of comprehensive immigration reform. He worked with a group of Democrats and Republicans that hammered out a plan to revamp the country's myriad immigration laws. The plan also included a strategy for border security and a reasonable path to citizenship, not amnesty for the millions of immigrants already in the country. That effort should be revived as soon as possible."

That's from a South Carolina newspaper endorsing Lindsay Graham. I actually saw Lindsey Graham get criticized by Tucker Carlson on Fox last week on this basis. Carlson was asking basically, do we now go back to Lindsey Graham amnesty? Does a Biden White House and a McConnell-Graham Senate have a coalition for comprehensive immigration reform that you're interested in?

Anu: I don't think so, Brian. I think that the days of trying to negotiate with majority leader McConnell, who may not be majority leader next year, depending on the Georgia runoff, are long behind us. We have seen in this country three decades of just increasing, seemingly never-ending funding for immigration enforcement, for border security, for ICE, for tearing apart families.

I think that the price that a majority leader McConnell and the current iteration of a Senator Lindsey Graham, although who knows what iteration will be next year, is too high to pay. Our families have already paid such a high price. In this country we spend $25 billion a year on immigration enforcement and that directly results in separating the families and I don't think that that's something that our community here in New York, the immigrant community across the country will be able to stomach. I don't think it's something the American people would be able to stomach in exchange for some limited legalization program.

What we're demanding is, we've already made this horrific down-payment on immigration enforcement, on border security. It's time for a real legalization plan that puts the 11 million undocumented immigrants and their family members on a real road to citizenship and unfortunately, I think that the price that McConnell would ask would be far too high.

Brian: The famous Trump "asshole countries" and "Why can't we have more people from Norway?" moment came, if I remember correctly, when something like that was on the table. Looking back, it's surprising how close it appeared to actually come in the Trump administration, where it was going to be something like a border wall, which the Democrats in the mid-2000s, 1st decade of this century, supported, in many cases, a border wall in exchange for DACA and a big path to citizenship for the 11 million or whatever the number is, undocumented adults.

Is that your understanding of what almost happened then and if they got that close then, why couldn't they get that close again with the President Biden, and especially if the Democrats take the Senate?

Anu: Unfortunately Brian, I wish it had been that extensive, but it was far narrower. The "asshole countries" comment, in fact, specifically referred to TPS, Temporary Protected Status, which protects many African countries and Central American countries and Haiti. The President was referring to the African countries and Haiti specifically in his "asshole" comments. It would have provided a path to permanent residency and citizenship for TPS recipients and for DACA recipients, while though, at the same time, dramatically cutting legal immigration and then also providing an additional $20 billion for a border wall. The Republicans quite frankly, couldn't even get votes for that, right?

Brian: Right.

Anu: I just don't see how there's a path forward for something that is palatable for us.

Brian: Before we take a few phone calls, what about legal immigration? Trump wanted to change the legal immigration system to be based on what they see as a merit-based point system, something like Canada's, though Canada is very open to refugees separately from that, which Trump wasn't, but otherwise based on education, employability, English language skills, things like that, and less on the family ties that enable a lot of immigration in the current law, what Trump calls chain migration. Is Biden's position on that clear?

Anu: Well, just one correction, Trump's said, talked a lot, about "merit-based" immigration, but their real plan was not to shift but to cut. Their plan was not to--

Brian: Both right? Both those criteria and deep, deep cuts.

Anu: Deep, deep cuts. It would have been to basically eliminate most family emigration, and then just keep current levels of employment-based immigration. The truth is, unfortunately through policy changes, he and his administration were quite successful. I think by next year, we will have seen a reduction in legal immigration by up to 49%, just based off of different policy changes and making it harder for immigrants to access legal channels to bring their family members over or to apply for employment-based visas.

I think the Biden administration has made clear that they support family-based immigration, they have made very clear that they support the refugee system and in fact, have said that they will restore our role in the world and immediately increase our refugee numbers upon coming into office. He has made a commitment to immediately rescind these racist travel bans, the Muslim ban, which have really limited people's ability to come to the United States through legal channels.

I think that the Biden ministration understands and President-elect Biden has made clear that he understands that family is the cornerstone of our immigration system and is how we integrate into our communities and to society and that we should not turn away from that as a country.

Brian: Carla in Union City. You're on WNYC. Hello, Carla.

Carla: Hello.

Brian: Hi there.

Carla: Hello. Can you hear me?

Brian: I can hear you.

Carla: One of the things is that I have not been personally affected by the policy, but one of the reason why my driving force to vote for president like Biden was that when I kept hearing on the news about the family who received temporary asylum, and the DACA children. I really call it to think that these people lives would have been uprooted based on Trump basically driving agenda of getting rid of them. I felt like if these policies that he was implementing now, as an immigrant from Trinidad and Tobago, if he had implemented it, then I would have not been in this country.

I also look at the fact that this is why I couldn't understand why some immigrants was so determined to vote for him, because to me, they didn't think about our brothers and sisters who if now in the same position that most of us was in years ago. That's all I have to say about it.

Brian: Carla, thank you so much. Call us again. Jude in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hello, Jude.

Jude: Hello, good morning, Brian. Good to be on the show again. I am directly affected by the immigration policy. I came into this great country about three and a half years ago to run a doctorate degree. I've finished and we all try to adjust our status and the Trump administration has made it very difficult. Sometimes even the waiting period looks like it's not worth it. Then what you keep getting from the Immigration Service is that their backlogs and this, which wasn't happening before. We hope that the Biden administration will help make things easier for people who come in here and they don't mean harm to the country, people who can contribute to the development of this country.

I've been here as a student and I've been here for three and a half years. By the grace of God, I have three years tax return. I am not hiding. I'm giving back my fair share to the country, because I appreciate the fact that we have a problem, we can dial 911. The police are there to help, the fire service are there to respond, the ambulance are there to respond. We also believe that we can contribute our own quota to help develop the country further. We love America. In the 3 years I've been here I've had two children who are citizens.

Sometimes I worry what happens? What is the fate of my children? Will they be able to grow up in their country of birth or not? We hope the Biden administration will make it easy as he has promised. Thank you there.

Brian: Thank you so much and it sounds like you've shown more years of your tax returns than some people. Alexander on Staten Island. You're on WNYC. Hello, Alexander.

Alexander: Yes, hi, good evening, good afternoon, how are you?

Brian: Good, how are you?

Alexander: I'm doing well. I just have two points that I want to make about immigration. First of all, I'm here legal, I'm here in the country legally and I have big education. I hold doctorate and that's why I get it. Now I have family members back in old country who would like to come here, they really would, but they don't aid much to the American economy, and therefore they'll denied from coming.

Now, I have to say as much as I'd like for them to be coming, I fully understand those who opposes because America is here for its citizens first and foremost. If bringing in immigrants is not going to benefit the country because they don't have much to add from an economic or a cultural perspective, I don't know why they should be forced to accept such people. That's number one, number two.

Brian: Right, let me let me take that because also our time is limited, but that's a significant challenge. Anu Joshi from the New York Immigration Coalition, here is an immigrant who says he would love to have his family here, but he doesn't know why the country would want them here because they don't have anything to or enough to offer in the ways that he described, what's your response?

Anu: Well, a couple of responses. One, I think being able for US citizens and for Green Card holders to be reunited with family members, is a way that the country is taking care of US citizens and Green Card holders, that we all have an innate desire to be with the family that we love. A part of that is being able to apply for them to get visas and come to the United States to be with us. I'd say that is a part of really honoring who we are as a country.

I think the second thing is to talk about what does it mean to contribute to the United States? We are not all just cogs in a machine. We're not all just a product of our economic outputs. We bring so much to this country. I think that when you look at a state like New York especially, we are the most diverse state in the country when it comes to immigration. We have immigrants from all over the world living in our state. I think that that has made us a more vibrant, rich and successful state, both economically, but importantly culturally. It has made it so that we are really able to be relevant on the global stage and has enriched all of our lives. That that's my personal belief. I think in terms of what does it mean to really add value? I think it's a matter of perspective.

Brian: We're almost out of time, but Alexander--

Alexander: I'd like to respond.

Brian: Go ahead.

Alexander: First of all, we're just a small percentage of this country, the immigrants and it's true, we would benefit by having family here, but they're constantly as a whole, they don't benefit from it. That's number one. Number two, cultural is great and the more we set from different countries the more culture, I can tell you [unintelligible 00:22:04]. The issue is that when the cost of keeping up this culture is so great because there have hard time finding jobs, they have hard time with different things, sometimes they even turn to crime, all that, that just makes it not worth it.

Brian: I'm going to leave it there. We're just about out of time in the segment. Anu, you'll get one more response to him. Anything else you want to say to wrap it up as we start to look forward to the Biden administration and what they may do on immigration policy.

Anu: I'll just say that this election we saw that voters chose a new path forward and we expect, and we will hold a President-elect Biden accountable to that promise that he made on the campaign trail to respect immigrant communities and to fight hard to ensure we can remain with our loved ones here in this country.

Brian: I would love to be a fly on the wall, listening to Alexander's phone conversations with his family back in the old country, as he called it, with his characterization of their value. I'll let you mention an event that you have going this afternoon. Did you want to shout that out?

Anu: We're just continuing to do events and activities all through the week. You can go to our website, nyic.org to learn more.

Brian: The one that I have here is this afternoon at one o'clock, New York State and local officials attend Our city, Our vote campaign event with New York City Council members Ydanis Rodriguez, Carlos Menchaca and Adrienne Adams, Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, New York State Senator Julia Salazar in the New York Immigration Coalition, steps of Borough Hall in Brooklyn. Are you calling for something in particular with that group? That looks like it's locally focused rather than aimed at the Biden administration? Or do you know that one in particular?

Anu: Sorry. That's the Our city, Our vote campaign which would extend municipal voting rights to legal permanent residents and other work authorized immigrants in New York City. It would allow folks, maybe not us citizens, but who are legal permanent residents to be able to vote in New York City elections. This is a bill that we're working on with a number of partners including a number of elected officials, to really ensure that we can all participate in our shared democracy.

Brian: That's going to get people inflamed too on the opposite side of the debate and saying, "Wait, shouldn't people at least have to go through the citizenship naturalization process before they have the right to vote?"

Anu: What we know is that we all matter and we all participate especially in local elections. New York City is home to so many immigrants who are impacted by what members of the city council do, by what our mayor does, the decisions that they make. We think that it's only right that they have a voice in deciding who is getting to represent them, at least on a local level.

Brian: As we go into the mayoral election year of 2021, is this going to be a thing that the New York Immigration Coalition is looking for the mayoral candidates to take a position on?

Anu: Definitely.

Brian: We're going to let "definitely" be the last word because so many things are left unresolved, not that. Anu Joshi is the vice president of policy for the New York Immigration Coalition. Thank you as always.

Anu: Thank you so much, Brian.

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