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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now that we've explored some of the possible global financial implications of what might happen in Washington in the coming days, let's get local. Mayor Eric Adams, as you probably heard, is seeking to suspend New York City's right to Shelter law as the city struggles to meet the basic needs of all the migrants streaming in right now. Here he is speaking to reporters on Wednesday.

Mayor Eric Adams: Our shelter system is buckling. We are trying to prevent it from collapsing.

Brian Lehrer: That's his rationale for suspending some Right to Shelter rules. Background, for the past four decades, the city has been the only major city in the US to guarantee a bed to anyone who asks for one whether they have previous ties to New York City or not. It stems from a 1981 consent decree issued in the lawsuit known as Callahan versus Carey. Today, the law would apply to an estimated 70 to 80,000 people who qualify to receive shelter. About half of those are recent asylum seekers, which the Adams administration says, "The city never contemplated, foreseeable or indeed even remotely imagined." That's a quote from the mayor.

Joining us now to discuss this latest news and how it might impact the city's homeless population that's already here, as well as the migrants themselves, is Christine Quinn, president and CEO of Win, the largest provider of shelter and supportive services for homeless families in New York City. Many of you know she was previously the New York City Council speaker during the Mayor Bloomberg years. We are also being briefly joined by Robert Hayes, president and CEO of the Community Health Care Network. He actually argued the case that established New York State's Right to Shelter law and went on to found the Coalition for the Homeless, the prominent nonprofit that provides legal, medical, and other services to individuals and families while also advocating for policy change. Chris Quinn and Bob Hayes, welcome back to WNYC.

Christine Quinn: Thank you.

Robert Hayes: Thanks so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Bob, let me start with you. Our colleague Liz Kim reminds us in an article that your work on Callahan versus Carey, which effectively gave New York its Right to Shelter law, was the biggest legal victory in history for homeless New Yorkers. That's how Liz characterizes it. Since we have the honor of your presence and all this history and your experience, take us back to 1981. What was the basis of the lawsuit at that time?

Robert Hayes: The suit actually began in 1979 when we asked the court for what's called a preliminary injunction in the case. The city and the state, both defendants, that's relevant today, argued against it. The judge ruled in our favor and found that under the New York Constitution that there was indeed a right to shelter. That case initially was for homeless men, because that's where the crisis was beginning in the late 1970s. It was subsequently extended. We still had to fight the Koch administration to homeless women in a separate suit and then to homeless families in yet a third lawsuit.

Brian Lehrer: What did the decision require that became city policy? Give us some specifics about how quickly and with what kinds of standards people needing shelter have to be housed because it's some of those particulars that I think Adams is trying to suspend.

Robert Hayes: Actually, I'm going to disagree with you on that, Brian, a bit. Let me answer first answer the question.

Brian Lehrer: Sure. Please.

Robert Hayes: The preliminary injunction itself simply said provide shelter. We then in early 1981, were in the midst of a trial on the merits of this case. The court was very clear that it was a serious case. In the midst of it, the city and state recognized it was not going so well for them. About three weeks into the trial, we broke off for settlement negotiations. Those settlement negotiations went on for about four or five months. The key thing we never argued about was the fundamental right to shelter and that's what Mayor Adams right now is looking to eviscerate. The other dozen pages and negotiations that went on for months went to basically quality standards, how much space between cots. The judge insisted and the defendants agreed people would have lockable storage units, as the decree says, things to make it safer, showers, things like that.

I think it's clear that the mayor now is not simply saying, "Give us a break on some of these standards." As far as I can tell, the lawyers of today are allowing flexibility with respect to issues like showers and space and things like that. What is frightening to me is that the mayor is basically saying the fundamental right to shelter that has not really been disputed for decades is now something that he feels the city can no longer meet.

Brian Lehrer: Christine Quinn, is that your understanding, too, of what the mayor is asking?

Christine Quinn: Absolutely in his second or third action. He started last week with something that was not as fundamental, this issue of whether people could stay overnight in an office when they haven't gotten a place, and that's not good. Don't get me wrong. I worried it would be a slippery slope and we would see exactly what we have seen and it is as broad and significant and disemboweling as Bob said.

Brian Lehrer: The mayor, if I understand it correctly, Chris, has said that he's not seeking to end the right to shelter, that this policy change is explicitly not intended to impact families and children, for example, which is who you serve mostly at Win. Who do you think the policy change would impact the most and how if the court allows his petition to suspend the right to shelter?

Christine Quinn: Well, his most recent actions are directed at single homeless people. That's true. Last week or the week before, when he started this process, they indicated that that was all they were going to do. Two things. One, I don't believe it's going to stop at singles, nothing of his behavior indicates that, and that the next round will be families. Two, and this is so important, those of us who work with families are not going to be pitted against those who support single individuals. Yes, my group focuses on families, but my mission is to break the cycle of homelessness in the city of New York and that means everyone. We will, as a community of homeless New Yorkers and those who work with homeless New Yorkers be united in this effort.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to play another clip of the mayor and get you both to respond. Also invite our listeners to call or text us at 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692. We are experimenting with this new service that we've set up this morning where we can take texts as well as calls to that same call and number 212-433 WNYC so choose your medium--

Christine Quinn: Are you having better luck than DeSantis using a new format? I hope so.

Brian Lehrer: Well, yes. In fact, I mentioned this in the last half hour, Chris, but you'll probably be interested to know that because some of our listeners have been objecting to using Twitter, we've used Twitter as our comments page--

Christine Quinn: Is that right?

Brian Lehrer: -for the last number of years. We like it for a few different reasons. People can see each other's tweets. There's another public conversation going on where people can interact with each other in addition to what's going on the actual show like that. We want to respect some of our listeners who either were never on Twitter or want to abandon Twitter for the various reasons that people are doing that today. We're really going forward, going to be using both. What we're doing today is testing this text messaging service and so far, yes, it is going much more smoothly than Ron DeSantis' presidential rollout with Elon Musk.

Christine Quinn: Very good.

Brian Lehrer: Call or text 212-433 WNYC 433-9692. Let me play this Adam's clip. Here he is more from his appearance with reporters on Wednesday laying out the big picture of what he's trying to do as he argues it.

Mayor Eric Adams: We are responding to a humanitarian crisis where we brought in over 70,000 people that went through our system, 108% increase. I don't know how I can make it any clearer. I am leaving no stone unturned of dealing with a humanitarian crisis that will prevent us from providing services to those who are in our care and those who are coming to our city. That is what I'm doing. This is one of the most responsible things any leader can do when they realize the system is buckling and we want to prevent it from collapsing.

Brian Lehrer: There's the mayor and listeners, if you're just joining us, my guests are Christine Quinn, president and CEO of Win, the largest provider of shelter and supportive services for homeless families in New York City, and the former New York City Council speaker and have Robert Hayes, president and CEO of the Community Health Care Network. He argued the case back in the late 70s and early 80s that established New York State's Right to Shelter law, that case known as Callahan versus Carey. Carey was Governor Hugh Carey at the time for the political context, but Bob there's the mayor saying basically, "Look, we have tens of thousands of newly homeless people coming in who are the asylum seekers, and we have to do the best we can for them. I'm trying to do the best we can for them. No mayor, no governor, no anybody is trying to do more at the level of government leadership than I'm trying to do, but we just don't have the rooms." What do you suggest?

Robert Hayes: Well, the first thing I say is, I do have deep respect for Mayor Adams' administration in moving the boulders that moved in recent months to open up additional beds. There's no question that they did that well, and this is not the time for Mayor Adams and his administration to lose their courage. As a practical matter, yes these are tough times, but the fundamental right to shelter is based on the state constitution that said, aid, care, and support the needy is a public obligation that must be met. That was my argument. I went back to the founding of that constitutional provision. It was put in 1937 at the height of the depression, and the proponent said, "This provision is to make clear that no matter how hard times get, we are to maintain this commitment to the people of New York."

Why the stones that are still unturned? Take courage mayor, recognize that this Callahan decree was signed by the state government as well as the city government back then. Every county in this state should be under the same obligation. I had a court order against Orange County where Newburgh is, and now we have the Newburgh local officials fighting the mayor sending folks into the hotels. That's one thing they could do. I guess I'd point to-- Christine probably is much closer to this, I'm in healthcare now, she's in housing people, but because of bureaucratic obstacles so many vacant supported housing units that people should be able to get into, get out of the shelter system and make some more room.

Brian Lehrer: Christine, want to keep going on that?

Christine Quinn: Yes. Look, I'm sympathetic to how big a problem this is from the mayor, but he simply cannot say accurately that they have done everything they could possibly do. Let me give you an example that is happening today. There is a piece of legislation that the council will vote on today, a bill that would eliminate a rule that's been on the book since Giuliani that says you have to wait 90 days before you can apply for housing, but the point of being in shelter is to get housing. Giuliani put that in place to be kind of punishing. He is keeping people from getting out and moving forward, and it costs anywhere from $11,000 to $15,000 a month extra by having this rule.

If the mayor supported the bill, got rid of the 90-day rule, people would move out of shelter earlier, and we would open up units that either the asylum seekers or other homeless people could move into, just as one example. The mayor is threatening to veto that bill and making personal calls to council members. Two, and we've talked about this before in this city, though never done it, because Trump became president, but we could make housing vouchers available to the undocumented, and help those folks move out of shelter into permanent housing.

That would also make a big difference. We could also be funding the shelter for asylum seekers with the type of care they should have. Right now, many of those facilities don't have enough security and don't have enough mental health services that people need given the trauma that they have been through. That'll help people stabilize and be able to move on more quickly just as three examples, but there are certainly others.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC FM HDNM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are on New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming @wnyc.org at a minute before 11:00. Few more minutes on Mayor Adams going to court to ask for permission to suspend the city's Right to Shelter law, because of the number of asylum seekers coming in right now. I'm going to pair a caller coming in with a text coming in. The text asks, "Why don't more cities and more states have a right to shelter law? Why is New York the only one?" Craig in Riverdale is going to ask a question I think related to that. Craig, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Craig: Hello guys. How you doing? My question is, why are these people who are coming in for asylum or migrants-- I understand that and it's horrible, but we've had thousands and thousands of homeless people already around. We haven't been able to get them jobs or housing. What makes you think we could have done it with the new people who come in? By the way, he openly before all this happened said, "Send them to us. We'll take care of everything." Well, be careful what you wish for and this is what he got. It is just until this--

Christine Quinn: I'm not sure [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Hang on Christine [crosstalk] Let him finish.

Christine Quinn: I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Craig.

Craig: Until major cities like New York and San Francisco admit that this is an unsolvable problem, but they have to say, "This is a horrible problem, but we're going to try and deal with it the best we can." There are thousands of homeless people who are still in these places who are becoming institutionalized, like-- [inaudible 00:16:32] [crosstalk] who won't know how to deal with the outside world.

Brian Lehrer: Craig, thank you very much. Another way that he put it to our screener that I want to make sure enters the conversation is that he said, "Adam said, we are a sanctuary city, and now he's getting what he wants," which is of course what Governor DeSantis and Governor Abbott say to the mayor when they bus people here. Chris, go ahead.

Christine: We've always been a sanctuary. We've been a sanctuary city for a very, very long time. In fairness to the Mayor, he didn't say, "Send people here." This was done unceremoniously at best by Governor Abbott and to some degree Governor DeSantis. There isn't really fault there, one. Two, any of the steps I mentioned before and others will help those, let's say traditional homeless folks as much as they will help asylum seekers get out of shelter. Three, at Win we're the largest provider of shelter to homeless families with children.

We saw last year our average length of stay go from 15 months to 11 months. I can tell you in the family system we work in people are not getting institutionalized if that's the word that was used at all, and we and other shelters have a job placement program that we saw raise salaries by as much as $4 an hour. I say that all to say, yes, we are in a crisis, but we cannot lose hope. The best thing New Yorkers have is an enormous well of hope that they bring out in crisis times. We've seen it over and over, and that's what we need to have now as everyday New Yorkers, and that's what our leaders need to demonstrate to help move us all forward.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to add to that Bob?

Robert Hayes: Yes. I would just basically echo what Chris says with respect to this is not a hopeless situation for people who have been homeless in New York. We are making some progress, and if only the governor and mayor could get together and finally get serious housing programs going, it could really accelerate those improvements, but look, we have to recognize with this relatively short-term asylum issue which is what it will be, the sky is not falling. The mayor and his people have to keep courage because we completely agree with the mayor and the congressional delegation that the best thing that could be done is allow these folks to get work permits.

This is not going to be a lot different than every other surge of immigration New York has seen for really 150 years. These folks are mostly able, willing, and in some cases absolutely desperate to get work. They want to do it legally. Let them do that, because we have the jobs. I heard some of the asylum seekers are nurses. I want to hire them. I want to hire them immediately because we in healthcare need nurses and we need doctors and help. There's an answer to this.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Laura in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi Laura.

Laura: Hi. Thank you very much for taking my call. I have a background in theater and I really wish that the mayor and some of the people who maybe work on the police force could actually understand what it's like to roll up your sleeves and do some hard work. I think that the mayor could, for example, organize with construction managers, maybe some retired people in construction, people who could help given that the city has its own staff of building evaluators to refabricate some of these abandoned buildings, abandoned departments, things where we can fix them up and use as a workforce that some of the guys who are here looking for work whether they're asylum seekers or migrants.

I don't think [inaudible 00:20:33] to follow in the [inaudible 00:20:36] people like DeSantis and Abbott and Trump for that matter, who have no heart, who are absolutely devoid of ethics. We shouldn't be running away from our principles. We should hold our principles high. We should find creative ways to solve this problem, and I think we can. We have plenty of people in construction that the city could hire. The city could hire architects to make reviews of their buildings and they could get teams of people together, and we could actually use this problem to help our city. It would be amazing if we did because then we could actually get our hands on more affordable housing and we could help these people.

Brian Lehrer: Laura, let me leave it there. Your line is breaking up and you've put a lot on the table just on what you said at the very beginning of your call. I'm sure Mayor Adams and many members of the NYPD would not like being told they don't know how to roll up their sleeves and do actual work. I'm just noting that. On the policy, I guess Chris, Laura's trying to come up with a scenario where we use government jobs, I guess, to meet some of the needs of the city to match some of the needs of the city with some of the interest in working that the asylum seekers have.

Christine Quinn: I think that's right, and she's right that there are sectors out there that need employees. Trust me, we're housing 250 asylum-seeking families, 700 children at Win. These folks want to work, no question about it. The other thing I see as an opportunity, and what she's saying is we need to get the federal government to expedite working papers. No question. Let's not lose the time between now and then, and let's take the folks who are in the shelter system and enroll them in job training and language or whatever else they need to be ready the day that the working papers come to work in the sectors that need more workers.

When I said earlier, fund the shelters better, that the asylum seekers are going to, what I mean by that is most are getting sent to welfare hotels, not to places like Win, which have job placement programs. Let's not waste that time. Let's seize the opportunity to help sectors that need workers and get these new New Yorkers trained.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of job openings, let me ask you one closing question Chris, based on something else that's in the news, and that's that the mayor's Chief Housing Policy Director Jessica Katz, announced that she's leaving the administration, and from the reporting I saw, it's not clear whether that position will even be filled again by the mayor. He created it in a certain housing way, and we don't know what's going to happen. I don't know if you know Jessica Katz or if you think--

Christine Quinn: I do.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think she's resigning because she's just fed up either with the mayor or the difficulty of this situation with all the asylum seekers and do you want that job?

Christine Quinn: [laughs] No, and no is a complete sentence. Two, Jessica's not afraid of hard work or any fight, but I'll let her speak for herself about why she's leaving, but it is a loss to the city because she has that unique ability to work both with people who are homeless, have lived experience, advocates, and developers, and you don't always see that. If the mayor doesn't keep the housing Zhar's arena position, if you will, then he needs to have a deputy mayor for housing.

That's the only thing that would make it okay if he didn't keep this position is if he elevated it even further.

Brian Lehrer: Christine Quinn from Win, Bob Hayes from the Community Healthcare Network. Thank you both so much for the conversation today. Really informative and interesting. Thank you.

Christine Quinn: Thank you. Bye-bye.

Robert Hayes: Thank you both.

Christine Quinn: Bye-Bye.

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