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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. Today is Thursday, November 12th so Thanksgiving is two weeks from today which means if you're traveling to see your family your quarantine clock has started. There is nothing simple about the holiday this year. From safety concerns about travel to staving off fights about politics. Once you arrive, there's a lot to think about and a lot to prepare for. That's why we are now offering for the rest of our program this morning, advice about your Thanksgiving plans. We'll call this Everything but The Food edition.

With me now are two experts, one on infectious diseases and the other on family dynamics and relationships. Those can be infectious diseases too but we'll set that aside. Give us your best shot. What are you stressing about this holiday season? 646-435-7280. Specifically, what do you need advice about regarding thanksgiving, anything but the food? Are you unsure about whether you should be traveling at all with cases on the rise in the area? Or if you are planning on traveling do you have a question about how long to quarantine or when to get tested before you go 646-435-7280.

Or maybe you and your family have different opinions on what's safe and what's appropriate for the holiday this year. Your dad wants you to come but you don't feel like you want to risk your health and theirs, anything like that. We can take that question too and those like it, 646-435-7280. Maybe you're a college student being asked to get tested before you go home for Thanksgiving like they're asking all the kids at Notre Dame. Maybe you're the parent and you're expecting your college-aged child back to the house. What precautions do you want them to take before coming back home? Is that causing you stress? Is it causing them resistance?

Or maybe you're alone this Thanksgiving, how are you coping with not being with your family or the anticipation of that? What are your plans for yourself (646) 435-7280. We're looking for your questions of advice. We're inviting your questions that are seeking advice from our two guests, Dr. Joshua Coleman senior fellow at the Council on Contemporary Families, a psychologist and author of many books on family relationships including most recently, Rules of Estrangement: Why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal The Conflict and Dr. Julia Marcus, infectious disease epidemiologist and associate professor at the Harvard Medical School and a contributor to the Atlantic. Welcome back both of your Dr. Coleman and Dr. Marcus.

Dr. Coleman: Thanks for having me.

Dr. Marcus: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus it's 14 days out before thanksgiving, if I'm going to visit my family should I start quarantining today?

Dr. Marcus: First, I'll just say there are no absolutes here, ideally, yes. This is the perfect time to start quarantining meaning limiting your contacts as much as possible. Also say not everybody can do that and we don't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good here. As much as people can limit their contacts over the next two weeks and maybe it's just a week before and that's all you can do, some people can't work from home but yes, this would be the time to start thinking about that.

Brian Lehrer: If you're going to get tested, let's say just to reassure yourself or to make a case to your family members that, "I'm safe to come over," how close to the gathering should people get tested?

Dr. Marcus: It's going to depend on the turnaround time for test results where you live. If the test results come back in 24 hours then great, test with as close as possible to the event. If it's going to take five days then you got to start thinking ahead and test earlier. Then at that point try to really limit your contacts as much as possible after you've gotten that test.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Coleman, for you in the family dynamics business, are you hearing a lot of, "I don't want to go visit my family because I don't feel it's safe but they really want me to come."?

Dr. Coleman: I'm hearing both that. I'm hearing both sides of the equation. Depending on the nature of the family and the family dynamics that can either be a good discussion or it can be a really problematic discussion like so many things about family issues whether they're politics or even the virus. Larger underlying conflicts can get brought into the open with this sort of a dynamic. It's important that people use all of their best communication skills with navigating this

Brian Lehrer: Here's one that maybe is part A part B for both of you and then we'll go to the phones. Dr. Coleman what should I do if let's say once I get to my family's house and there were more people than I thought there would be or I get the sense that the people who are there haven't been taking precautions in the days leading up to the gathering themselves? Can I leave?

Dr. Coleman: Absolutely. Your physical health has to be the priority. If your family is for whatever reason unable to use good judgment or from their perspective they may be using good judgment, but if you're more cautious than they are you should absolutely lovingly tell them that you're just not comfortable there and that you're going to stay in a separate location.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus, how would you as an infectious disease specialist judge safety once you walk in the door for Thanksgiving and look at the group?

Dr. Marcus: Some guidelines here just to keep in mind are the smaller the gathering the safer it will be, every additional person and every additional household adds some risk. Then beyond that thinking about the space and how spaced out people can be is important. Thinking about mask-wearing especially if there's going to be a big long meal people are obviously not going to be wearing masks during that time, so distancing is going to be more important.

Also remembering that six feet of distance is not a hard and fast rule especially indoors, so that's where ventilation becomes important. Even just opening a few windows and trying to get cross ventilation across a space from one end of the house or one end of an apartment to the other can really help. On top of that if it's possible to hold the event outdoors that can be much much safer than indoors

Brian Lehrer: Lindsey in Park Slope, you're on WNYC. Hi Lindsey.

Lindsey: Hi. I have a question for your guests. If we're trying to get a group of eight people together and ask everyone to self-isolate for four days beforehand and then rapid test the day before Thanksgiving, would that be a safe scenario?

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus.

Dr. Marcus: I think that's a good start. You're keeping your event fairly small and you're aiming to get everybody tested beforehand. I will say that it can take more than four days for symptoms to show up after exposure. If it's possible to limit contacts for more than that four days I think that would be helpful.

Brian Lehrer: I hope that's helpful, Lindsey. Helen in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi Helen.

Helen: Hi Brian. My question is partly scientific and partly interpersonal. It has to do with my very elderly mom's caregivers. One of them will be with her on Thanksgiving, I'm not so concerned about that. The other one shared with me this week that she's going to be visiting some relatives in a gathering of under 10 people which is okay, but I don't really feel like I'm in a position to question her closely about, "Are people going to be spaced out? Are the windows going to be open?"

She's not in a position to ask people to be tested and I know she has my mom's best interest at heart. I know she really loves her. I don't really feel like I can intrude on what she does for Thanksgiving but I'm very uncomfortable with her plans and I'm not doing anything remotely like that. I'm just trying to figure out. That's what I've been fretting about this week.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Coleman, can you help Helen with where the social etiquette line is?

Dr. Coleman: The social etiquette line is around what's going to make you feel like it's a situation where your health is going to be preserved. If you feel like your mother's caregiver isn't able to use good judgment and that judgment that you can really agree with and is going to potentially put you or your guests in danger you probably could apologize for being intrusive but I think it's a reasonable time to say, "I'm really sorry to have to ask you these questions, but given COVID, can you just let me know how people around you are managing this? Because frankly, if they're not then I actually can't. I'm being very strict about this with everybody. It's not personal to you, but I can't have people in the house who aren't really abiding by these guidelines. I'm sorry if that feels intrusive." Generally most people these days understand that and are sympathetic to it.

Brian Lehrer: Helen, I hope that's helpful. Dr. Marcus, we could turn Helens scenario around too, what about the caregivers who might have the same fears about the families? If you're a home health aid or a housekeeper, whoever who does domestic work and you've had this pretty one-on-one relationship with your client, and then all of a sudden it's Thanksgiving, you go home for Thanksgiving and your client has had a bunch of people over to their house, then the caregiver has the same question.

Dr. Marcus: Yes, absolutely. I think there are two things to say here. One is just to add that as much as we can normalize open communication around all of this. The way that we've tried to do with sexual health around HIV and STIs, as much as we can keep these conversations open, I think that can really help so that people don't feel like they need to hide what they did for Thanksgiving or not share that they potentially had some risk.

It also points to, what's going to happen here around the holidays, which isn't just that there will be some transmission that's going to happen at people's events, but also that week or two afterwards, we're going to see some ongoing transmissions. It's not just about limiting contacts up to the event, I think as much as people can try to limit contacts after the event that will also be helpful.

Brian Lehrer: Elaine in West Orange, you're on WNYC. Hello, Elaine.

Elaine: Hi there. I have a lot of conflicts regarding the upcoming holiday and I have seven people that I'm dealing with, which is not too many. It doesn't sound like many at all and normally that would be nothing for me. This year we have my brother-in-law, who's 83 years old and he had a few weeks ago, a stint put in otherwise in good health, and then my niece just had a new baby and my husband and I cannot quarantine, we have to both work and my two sons.

One of my sons, the 30-year-old is a scientist at Harvard and he says, "No, no, we're not going to get together." He's not coming down to New Jersey. We have to be cautious. My conflict when you mentioned everyone should be honest a part of me thought, "Maybe I just won't tell him that the rest of us are going to get together," but I don't think that's the right thing to do. I certainly can't have everyone in my house. It's not big enough to socially-distance or it just won't work. I'm conflicted between trying to find a place outside. Or am I honest with my son? Or do I just say, "To hell with it," and stay home?

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Coleman, want to take the honest-with-her-son part? [laughs]

Dr. Coleman: Yes, Elaine, I think you need to be honest with your son because if he finds out, which he probably, he's going to be mad at you for not being direct with him. It's much better to have that discussion and deal with the consequences of that and try to have it as affectionately as possible than to not tell him and have it come back in some other way.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus, you want to add anything from the medical side?

Dr. Marcus: Yes. I don't know if this counts as medical, but I would encourage people in general, in this situation, and in general to try to be creative around your event. We have this idea in our minds of what Thanksgiving looks like and it often involves a big meal with lots of hanging out indoors. Maybe this year, the tradition looks a bit different. Maybe there's a more of an outdoor event, not an indoor meal. There are ways to tweak it, so if there are ways to have your event, but mitigate risk in those ways while letting go of some of our rituals and traditions, I think that can overall reduce risk.

Brian Lehrer: Elaine, I hope that's helpful. We're taking your questions on Twitter too and here's one. Dr. Coleman, I'll give this to you. How do you balance seeing family and friends for the holidays and the risks attached to that with depression and the need to have human and family connection for rebuilding your own joy?

Dr. Coleman: I think it's something that at least certainly a lot of people are dealing with, even if they're not vulnerable to depression. Each person has to make their own calculated risks assessment about that. I don't know that there's anyone, particularly, right answer. One way to think about it is how depressed are you going to be if you come down with coronavirus as a result of being in that situation or if you unwittingly expose somebody else to it? I think that would be one way to judge it.

To go back to Dr. Marcus's idea from the earlier caller too, there's other ways to be creative also with contact where you can be with other people, but use good judgment about transmission, which is also a way to get more social input.

Brian Lehrer: Staying on the intergenerational theme, Dr. Marcus, college students, more or less, don't have a choice about whether to come home or not, especially if their dorms close for Thanksgiving. Is there a best practice for college students before they come? I mentioned Notre Dame, I have this right. I had seen on TV a big mass celebration on a field after a football win and I think it was related to that, that the school, nevermind that their president got coronavirus at one of the White House superspreader events because he wasn't wearing a mask, which he asked his students to do, but they said, "All right, everybody should get tested before you go home." Is there a set of best practices for college students coming home for the holiday?

Dr. Marcus: Yes. The testing before going home can be ideal and then being as cautious as possible with contacts after that, both before and after that starting now. Again, we were two weeks out. Of course, that's not going to be possible for everyone, especially for people who are working in public-facing jobs, which many college students are, but as much as possible limiting contacts, testing before coming home.

Then for people who have space in their homes to keep some distance for a few days, if people can come home a bit earlier and take that distance that can help as well. Masking inside the house, of course, is uncomfortable, but for people who are willing to do that for at least a few days that can help reduce risks. There's no full-proof strategy here and most people can't do all of these things, but to the extent that people can do some of them to some extent that adds layers of risk mitigation.

Brian Lehrer: Nina in Great Neck, you're on WNYC. Hi Nina.

Nina: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good, how are you?

Nina: I just looked up the weather for Thanksgiving. It's supposed to be 56 and raining, so I think the outdoor suggestions are not going to work. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Not that anybody can predict the weather 14 days in advance.

Nina: I know, but here's my dilemma. I have a son who lives nearby, he has a small house and he wants to make Thanksgiving this year. We are a blended family. I'm separated from my husband. I am in a relationship. My husband's also in a relationship. We've all managed to have Thanksgiving together for the last couple of years, believe it or not, despite political differences, but this year, my son wants to make it. His home is smaller than mine.

My ex-husband is a COVID denier and just thinks this whole thing is ridiculous. My son, to his credit, wants everyone to get tested a couple of days before and he feels with open windows, it'll be okay. My partner and I are both immune-compromised and I don't think it's going to be okay and now I'm the bad guy. I'm the one who's ruining Thanksgiving because I don't want to come. Really, it's not a big deal to me. It's just a meal. I can stay home and have lobster tails and we'll have a meal with my son on Saturday, but I feel like I'm the holiday ruiner and it's not a good feeling.

Brian Lehrer: Lobster tails, just like the pilgrims. I'm not the-

Nina: You know what I'm saying? I could have a special day with my partner. This is a different year, but my son, who's 34, and it would be the first time hosting it in his own home so it's a big deal to him.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not the expert here, Dr. Coleman, but I'm triggered. I'm like, "Come on kid. How can you demand-

Nina: Yes, that's what I said. -how can you demand that your immunocompromised mother come to a big group for Thanksgiving?" Dr. Coleman?

Dr. Coleman: Well, sure, it is human nature to react in that kind of a way, but a better response would just be to be really impassive, just to say to your son, "I'm sorry, sweetheart. I know this is a big deal to you, I was looking forward to it too and I hope by next year we can do it. Or as soon as the coronavirus is in hand, we can celebrate, but I can't do it.

I know it's really disappointing to you and I'm sorry." Just stay there, don't get defensive, don't get pulled into an argument, just remain empathic but firm.

Brian Lehrer: Nina, I hope that helps. Thank you for your call. By the way, here's that Notre Dame story, just confirming what I had thrown out from memory, Chicago Tribune, "After Notre Dame students rushed field, school intensifies exit COVID-19 testing plans ahead of Thanksgiving. After hundreds of Notre Dame Students stormed the field for football victory, school intensifies exit testing protocols ahead of Thanksgiving break."

Another one, Dr. Marcus, with respect to colleges, I see a Notre Dame story about this too, but I think it's a lot of schools. They're ending their semesters on Thanksgiving. There's going to be a really long break from Thanksgiving until after New Year’s at some schools so that whatever exposures happen over the holidays the kids aren't going to bring it back and create such superspreader events in the dorms and the classrooms that they have to close the schools entirely.

Dr. Marcus: Yes, that's right. The idea is to limit travel back to schools and limit the movement of the virus around the country. Of course, that means that college students may be home with their families for quite some time and there are risks there too. Then we have more people living in multi-generational households as opposed to a bunch of college students who are quite low risk for a bad outcome themselves living together. There are trade-offs here with everything.

With the question that somebody asked earlier about, "How do I balance this against mental health risks?" I think that's a broad issue with all of this, is that with every risk mitigation strategy, there is some trade-off and that's what makes these decisions so challenging.

Brian Lehrer: Morah in Wellfleet Massachusetts, you're on WNYC. Hi, Morah.

Morah: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can.

Morah: Hi, my question, I have is when we go to a gathering, are we supposed to bring our own bowls, soup spoons and our own food? Or can we eat what is prepared for us if we're guests with their bowls and spoons and so on?

Brian Lehrer: Interesting question, Dr. Marcus, how far would you take the no-touch environment?

Dr. Marcus: We could start with the ideal, which would be totally contactless, bring all your own stuff, bring your own shares, but at some point, the benefit is maybe not worth the effort. Based on what we know about transmission from surfaces, it seems to be a fairly low contribution to overall transmission. In this case, just use common sense in the sense that, try to use hand sanitizer, make sure it's available if you're hosting or bring some with you if you're a guest, and use it before eating.

In terms of shared food, avoid things like all dipping your chips into the same dip, but beyond that, just trying to be conscious of high-touch surfaces, making sure your hands are clean and you're trying not to touch your face, those basic recommendations that we've been hearing throughout.

Brian Lehrer: Lynn in Tinton Falls has a related question. Lynn, you're on WNYC, hi.

Lynn: Hi. My question is about the bathroom. We have a small group coming, I'm going to take a lot of precautions, but I do have an 89-year-old guest. Should we set aside a bathroom just for him? Or has it not been found to be an issue sharing bathrooms?

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus.

Dr. Marcus: I think if there is an available bathroom to set aside for him then great, I would absolutely encourage you to do that. Borrowing that for people who don't have that option, again, going back to the hand sanitizer, just trying to keep surfaces and hands as clean as possible and hands away from faces.

Brian Lehrer: Hopefully that helps, Lynn, as we continue to take your COVID Thanksgiving safety and family dynamics questions for our two guests. Bruce, in the West Village you're on WNYC. Hi, Bruce

Bruce: Hi, good morning. Thank you so much. I'm flying on Monday to Seattle from New York to see my brand new four-month-old grandson. The original plan was I would quarantine an Airbnb for the whole period, but after seven days we'd get a COVID test, and once that result came back, then I could spend Thanksgiving, hold the baby without a mask, and be indoors with them. Now, there's a surge of COVID in Washington state, my son and daughter-in-law both work in public health, and, of course, I'm going to follow what they wish to do. Now, they want to wait a full 14 days not bothered with the tests, but not have any indoor presence until 14 days, which of course is after Thanksgiving. How reliable is the test seven days after an airplane flight and possible exposure?

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Marcus.

Dr. Marcus: Around five days after exposure is the average for when we start to see symptoms appear, but that also means that for many people it's after that. Seven days is going to be better than five days. 14 days is going to be better than seven days. Having a test is going to be better than no tests. There's no hard and fast rule to this or to any part of this, risk is on a continuum. If you can quarantine for a longer, great, but there's really no full-proof method here.

Brian Lehrer: I'm so glad Bruce asked that question because Dr. Marcus, I think the science is evolving on this, correct me if I'm wrong, and that the full 14 days that was recommended at the beginning is no longer considered medically necessary to really know if you're going to go positive. Is that fair to say?

Dr. Marcus: I am not sure if the CDC has changed their guidelines on that but I think 14 days is ample, I would say. There are very few cases where symptoms have shown up after that length of time. Again, adding a negative test is going to be even more assurance in the scenario that was just described.

Brian Lehrer: Right, but the advice or the standard has not come down to 10 or something like that?

Dr. Marcus: Not that I'm aware of now.

Brian Lehrer: Related question on Twitter, it says, "At least in New Jersey, a public health professional informed me-" writes this person, "-that results of rapid testing are not even included in COVID rates. They are considered so unreliable." What about rapid testing in any of these scenarios?

Dr. Marcus: PCR test which is not a rapid test is the preferred option here, but any test will be better than no test. Again, we're on a continuum of risk here, and if the option is a rapid test versus none, then I would definitely encourage people to get a rapid test. Just looking back at the White House since you mentioned that superspreader event, just a reminder that, that was a scenario where they really relying on daily rapid tests to prevent transmission, so testing alone is not going to be a full-proof strategy. As much as people can layer on these other strategies, including keeping your events small, ventilation, masks when possible, that will help reduce risks.

Brian Lehrer: Jordana in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi Jordana.

Jordana: Hi, I'm calling from Morningside Heights and I'm almost 60. I'm thinking about going to the Dominican Republic to an all-inclusive resort for Thanksgiving week, just four days, leaving Tuesday, returning Saturday. They're direct flights so I wouldn't be changing planes in Miami or anything. The all-inclusive resorts have outdoor eating places, pools, and the beach. I'm just looking to chill and get away. The DR does not require any negative test upon entry.

My question is when I return to New York at JFK, will I have to quarantine? Will I be allowed into New York and then get a negative test within four days? I know I'm negative. I have been tested. I'm actually a volunteer in the Pfizer study. I've been in this study now three months. My last visit was last week where they did a blood draw. I assume I'm negative. They hopefully wouldn't inform me otherwise.

Brian Lehrer: You're negative now. On your specific question about coming back through JFK, I don't think it would matter whether you were in the Dominican Republic or whether you were in Florida or whether you were in about 44 states in the United States. Governor Cuomo has imposed a requirement that people coming from anywhere that's considered out of state or that's considered a hotspot get tested within three days of returning to New York. What I don't know, Dr. Marcus, and I don't know if you know that the Dominican Republic is considered a hotspot or exempt from that?

Dr. Marcus: I actually don't know.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, here it is. My producer on the spot, the question was barely out of the caller's mouth when Mary Croke put this in my message field. It says, "For travelers who were out of state for more than 24 hours, travelers must obtain a test within three days of departure prior to arrival in New York. The traveler must upon arrival in New York, quarantine for three days. On day four of their quarantine, the traveler must obtain another COVID test. If both tests come back negative, the traveler may exit quarantine early upon receipt of the second negative diagnostic test."

That says that it's a blanket policy, no matter where you're going out of New York on your way coming back in. There it is. What I don't know, Dr. Marcus, you're in Massachusetts, so I don't know if it's any different there, is whether that gets enforced at all or whether they just say you have to do it, but then they never actually check a testing document at the airport or anything like that?

Dr. Marcus: It's a great question. My sense is that these rules are not being widely enforced, but that may vary from state to state. Although, I don't think there's police at the airport waiting to check your testing results. We're really hoping that the public is going to be able to engage in these efforts as much as possible. Ideally, we wouldn't be relying on enforcement to make these things happen.

Brian Lehrer: A little more detail on those requirements for coming back to New York now from another country. If it's a centers for disease control level two or level three country, as they call it for a coronavirus, our Insta research team is continuing to just unearth facts right away. The Dominican Republic is considered a level three country. The guidelines for travelers to test out of the mandatory 14-day quarantine are what I said a minute ago. To our caller, it's the same as if you went to a high infectious state. The Dominican Republic is considered a level three country so those rules would apply. Duke in Jersey City, you're on WNYC. Hi, Duke.

Duke: Hey, Brian, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Duke: You can hear me okay?

Brian Lehrer: I can. What do you got?

Duke: My question is primarily for Dr. Coleman, but before I ask my question I just want to say, Brian, I know you know that in March and April of this year we were seeing consecutive days, where 500, 600, 700 people were dying a day, multiple days.

Brian Lehrer: Just in New York.

Duke: Just in New York. Exactly right. We're living through one of these TV horror movies in real life. What my question is for Dr. Coleman is, what is it about human nature that refuses to pause? Why is it that we simply cannot stop everything other than what's absolutely essential? We're about to go into the holidays. Why do people insist on having a traditional Thanksgiving festivity or a Christmas? I understand the impulse to do it, and I'm no different and I'm not trying to shame anyone, but one of the previous callers said she was having a gathering with an 89-year-old elder. Are you serious? What is it about human nature that just can't stop?

Brian Lehrer: Duke, you'll be happy to know that for what it's worth, Twitter agrees with you. You are giving voice to a lot of 280-character expressions of the exact same sentiment. Dr. Coleman, you want to talk about the psychology of, I don't know what it is, ritual? What?

Dr. Coleman: Duke, you're raising a really profound and fundamental question and it just shows how powerful our desires are for connection. It sometimes just short-circuits our judgment. Clearly, as I think this election has shown, our judgment can be short-circuited in all kinds of ways, but around the virus, it's easy for people to either deny it or to minimize it because their thirst for connection, for family, for ritual are so powerful and so profound. The earlier caller was somebody who was depressed, but even for people who aren't depressed at all, that very intense desire actually causes people really to short-circuit their better judgment about things.

Brian Lehrer: Joan in Monmouth County might be the perfect follow-up to that question and answer Joan you're on WNYC, Hi.

Joan: Hi Brian. I'm a good follow up because I am a first-time grandma and the family is out of their minds ecstatic, except also heartbroken because the baby is in California and we haven't been able to touch him. I also haven't seen my daughter through the whole pregnancy. I've already canceled the first which was intended for me to be there during his birth which was, November 1st. We're supposed to go, my husband and I, in two weeks. We wouldn't have time to spend the 14 days off the plane before we went to see him. We can't close our office or anything for that long. We would be going directly from the airport into a rental car to their home.

My daughter who's a healthcare provider in the Bay area is not concerned as a midwife, but I am starting to freak out that I might bring something there and harm them. I'm having a great trepidation about this trip so I'd like some advice. We're also both in our early '60s, so that puts us in the older category and my husband has asthma.

Brian Lehrer: I think the risks are clear. Dr. Coleman, why don't we go back to you for the intersection between what you were talking to Duke in Jersey City about and the tug that Joan is experiencing to do this now?

Dr. Coleman: Joan, you're saying, just to clarify, that your daughter is okay with your coming, but you're actually worried both about potential exposure for yourself and for them. Is that right?

Joan: I am. I have the mask, I have a face shield. I don't expect even for a six-hour flight to get out of my seat or to eat or drink anything. I won't check a bag, none of that. Do I have to go through the airport and get the car rental, go through people?

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to jump in just because the show's going to end in a minute or so, but psychologically, Dr. Coleman there's a difference between meeting your first grandchild for the first time, which is what Joan is describing, and just going to some other, "It's another year of Thanksgiving."

Dr. Coleman: I think these are all calculated risks that each person really has to decide for themselves. Sometimes the way to think about it is to project out in a worst-case scenario. Obviously, best case scenario you're going to meet your grandchild and it's going to be fantastic for everybody, but let's say the worst case scenario happens, then how would you feel? Would you regret it? Would you be mad at yourself? Would your child be mad at you? That's one of the ways to measure these calculated risks.

Brian Lehrer: I wish the answer could be more precise, but that's exactly why we've done most of this hour on these COVID Thanksgiving safety and family dynamics advice questions because the answers aren't easy in so many cases. We thanked Dr. Joshua Coleman, senior fellow at the Council on Contemporary Families, psychologist, author of many books on family relationships including most recently, Rules of Estrangement: Why Adult Children Cut Ties and How to Heal the Conflict, and Dr. Julia Marcus, infectious disease epidemiologist at Harvard and a contributor to the Atlantic.

I'll just finish with this ray of hope from Dr. Fauci on ABC's Good Morning America, this morning he said, "The cavalry is coming in the form of vaccines. Help is really on the way." Be as conservative as you can stand to be and see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Dr. Marcus, Dr. Coleman. Thank you both so much.

Dr. Coleman: Thanks for having us.

Dr. Marcus: Thank you.

 

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