[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As families prepare to gather to celebrate the holidays, some singles and unmarried couples might already be dreading certain questions from family members, you know who you are. It's not about your vaccine status. It's about your marital status. For singles, it may sound like, "When are you going to bring someone nice home?" For couples, it may sound like, "When are you going to get married already?"

Even married couples might be asked some questions like, "When are you having a baby?" Joining me now to discuss how to respond to their intrusive questions is Katherine Hertlein, relationship therapist, and professor in the Couple and Family Therapy Program at the University of Nevada, or is it Nevada School of Medicine?

Katherine Hertlein: It's Nevada. [chuckles] It's Nevada.

Brian Lehrer: We've settled that one in the first 10 seconds. Listeners, you may have seen her quoted in a recent New York Times article on a similar topic. Professor Hertlein, welcome to WNYC.

Katherine Hertlein: Thank you. Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Hello from New York. We say, New York.

Katherine Hertlein: Yes, my sister lives in New York, so hello to everybody in New York.

Brian Lehrer: What I love is how the New York and Washington press corps say Nevada for about three years and 11 months of every four-year cycle, but then when the primary comes up in the presidential election season, all of a sudden, we get it right and say Nevada.

Katherine Hertlein: It's true. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: For about three weeks. All right. Listeners, we'll open up the phones for you here right away. What awkward questions are you getting from family members--[clears throat] excuse me, about your relationship status and how do you respond? Do you need some advice from our guest, Dr. Hertlein, but never had a therapist over to dinner to ask? Tweet @BrianLehrer with your question or story or call up 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Do you have a theory, Dr. Hertlein, first of all, on why family members insist on asking these very personal and intrusive questions?

Katherine Hertlein: Yes. Families are very interested in knowing that the values that they think they've passed on to you have in fact been passed on. A lot of the questions originate from that value system and wanting to make sure that the values that they try to instill have in fact been adopted.

Brian Lehrer: Living together before marriage is getting more and more popular. According to Pew, about 8 in 10 adults younger than age 30, about 80%, say that cohabitation is acceptable, even if a couple doesn't plan to marry, but that doesn't stop meddling family members from asking about marriage plans. What's the first line of defense? What should couples do if they anticipate this line of questioning and they don't have the answer that the relatives are seeking?

Katherine Hertlein: This is where the couples have to be able to anticipate and figure out ahead of time who's on first. Who is the family member on what side of the family are those questions likely to be originating, and then which one of us is going to take the lead, and then the other plays a supportive role.

This is going to help to minimize any sort of reason that a family member might try to blame another person for being in charge of that decision-making process, and maybe trying to subtly communicate, "Gee, you are taking our family member away from what our family values were."

Brian Lehrer: Some family members, as I think you report, have developed a strategy of divide and conquer. Like, they'll ask your partner about it when you leave the room and maybe when they leave the room, they'll ask you, "When are you going to get married?" What do you recommend in that scenario?

Katherine Hertlein: Absolutely. We've had some really good conversations about our relationship, you can start with that and say, "Because it's about the two of us, why don't we just go ahead and wait till so and so comes back in the room," or, "Let me just go ahead and get my partner." You reflect that you, as a couple, have a boundary around the two of you that's different from that boundary you have within the family.

Brian Lehrer: What about for couples who were asked when they'll have kids repeatedly? There could be an additional layer of discomfort and for some, even trauma. Some couples might be having trouble getting pregnant, may be going through IVF, may have lost a child to a miscarriage, whatever. What about that case?

Katherine Hertlein: Well, anytime that there is something where someone sounds like they're trying to push an agenda, which happens in that case, again, we got to recognize that it's tied to a value system that your family member wants to talk about, wants to confirm that you still hold, et cetera. The first thing we talk about with couples is making sure that they understand that that relative is coming from a good place.

We have to adopt the assumption of good intent. Without that, then the questions are going to seem perhaps a lot more challenging and might end up feeling retraumatizing. The second thing is having kids and making long-term commitments with your partner, whether it's marriage or something else, is a very significant life event.

We will often talk to couples about saying things like, "Wow, those questions reflect major life decisions," or, "That would be a major life decision to bring a child in to our home or to commit ourselves to one another. It's really tough to give a timeline for something like that because it is so important to us." In that way, you're both communicating the value, but sidestepping the question about timing.

Brian Lehrer: Hey, Dr. Hertlein, you want to talk to a very honest caller.

Katherine Hertlein: I do. Let's hear it.

Brian Lehrer: Here is Hillary in Bergen County, who told our screener, she's the aunt with the agenda. Hillary--

Katherine Hertlein: Oh, Hillary [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: You're on WNYC, Hillary. Thanks so much for calling in. Hi.

Hillary: Hi, I have a very wonderful relationship with my aunt and I met somebody who all I wanted to do was have a cup of coffee with him, but I'm afraid she'll dump the coffee on my head. How do you suggest, "I met somebody, you might like him. You don't have a whole lot in common except I know his parents and they're nice." [chuckles]

Katherine Hertlein: It's a good question. Here, we're really getting to, again, what is the intentionality of the questions that are being offered. Certainly, your family members want you to be happy. They want you to be able to feel like you are supported by them, independent of what they might think about that individual's perspectives or what they do, et cetera.

Circling it around to what you exactly said, not just, "I met someone," but, "I met someone and this person is becoming important to me. Because you're important to me, I would like you to be able to sit down and meet with this person or talk for a few minutes." Focusing on the importance of both relationships, rather than the differences that might divide them.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I think Hillary is trying to set up somebody. She's the aunt.

Katherine Hertlein: Oh, I see.

Brian Lehrer: She's trying to get somebody to go on a blind date. I know, I think the beginning of her call was a little confusing when she said, "I met somebody." I think she's, "Just go out and have a cup of coffee with this person. I don't know anything about them, except that their parents are nice, but why don't you go?" How about that one?

Katherine Hertlein: It depends on how open your relative is to that. If you are being quite directive about, "I really need you to go out to coffee with this person," I think you might want to pull back a little bit and try to adopt a sense of curiosity around what that other family member would be open to. Something like, "Would you be open to coffee? Would this be of interest to you?"

Always returning the autonomy to the individual with whom you're speaking. A second thing is you could also then talk about the ways in which you think that individual would support your family member. It's less about, "Gee, I think the two of you would get along because you have so many things in common," and more about, "I met this individual who just seems like a really supportive person and has a lot of really good qualities.

I'd be interested to see if that was something that-- if it's someone you'd want to talk to, and again, no pressure. I met this individual and I thought of you because the two of you have so much integrity and I just," I don't know. Focusing on those characteristics about the individual rather than the personalities or the things that might look similar on the outset.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, I don't know if this is the case for Hillary's niece or nephew, but there was a Pew survey last year that found 31% of adults in this country are single, and half of those say they're not currently looking for a relationship or dates. How do you explain to a family member who may have an agenda that you're just not into dating that much, you don't actually care?

Katherine Hertlein: I think it's about focusing on the positive and the priority and not the deficit. The implication in that is that people should be partnered, and that is what has to happen or that's sort of the norm. That isn't true. People are welcome to be in partnerships. They are also welcome to not do that. Those are perfectly legitimate ways of living your life no matter which way you look at it. Rather than focusing on the norm is to be partnered and there's a deficit, if you are not looking for a relationship at this time, focusing on the positive. What is your priority?

You can say things like, "My priority right now is to focus on my work, focus on my health. I've got priorities in terms of focusing on cultivating friendships. I've got my priorities in this way." Rather than explaining the deficit, focus on the priority, focus on the positives.

Brian Lehrer: Ann in Manhattan has a good retort, I think, to one of these questions. Hi, Ann, you're on WNYC.

Ann: Hi, I was at the Met opera with my mother and she asked, "When do I think I'll have children?" I said, "I don't know, but we're practicing a lot." She never asked me again.

Katherine Hertlein: Please, yes. I'm glad you brought that up, Ann. A sense of humor is a really wonderful thing to bring to the table because these conversations can be quite contentious. Sometimes that little sense of humor can break it up a bit.

Brian Lehrer: And because your mother might be uncomfortable with you talking about having sex.

[laughter]

Katherine Hertlein: Brilliant.

Brian Lehrer: David in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, David.

David: Hey, how are you? My girlfriend is adamantly against marriage. She thinks the concept is just ridiculous. We just bought a house together, we've been together for about six years now. The family is going to start saying, "When are you going to get married?"

Here's the thing, I want it a little bit only because I have a very, very good job. I've been there 20 years, and I have a pension. If something happens to me, and we're not married, she actually gets nothing. It's very important to me that she's taken care of, if something should happen to me. I'm in this weird dichotomy where she really doesn't want it, and her family wants it, and I want it. I don't know where to go with it.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying you want it on her behalf if you were to die, so she could get your pension. Then that's up to her if that's her priority, right?

David: Right, sure. Sure.

Brian Lehrer: Well, any advice for this family, Dr. Hertlein?

Katherine Hertlein: Congratulations on the house, it sounds exciting. One of the things that sometimes happens when couples are not on the same page is the other family members wiggle in and have the opportunity to create that divide.

In your case, as you were describing the differences between you and your partner on where you fall on this issue. My concern was then about how easily the family members might wiggle in and create maybe a bigger issue than is present currently. I would ask what are the strategies for navigating those questions? What is going to be your joint response to the family together?

Then at what point are the two of you going to sit down and have a private conversation about how to organize that protection legally for your partner in the home? Those are two different conversations that are going to happen, but don't let the family exploit that crack. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Brian Lehrer: David, I hope that's helpful. Good luck to all of you. Let's sneak one more in here. Dr. Katherine Hertlein, you think these questions go away once you're old enough to be a grandparent? Maybe not. Mia in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mia.

Mia: Hi, thanks for taking my call. No, I'm just finding in this very birtherist nation and culture that-- I'm 66 years old, people are starting to say, "Do you have any grandchildren? Are you going to have any?" My adult children, who are wonderful people, do not want children. I'm being looked at with pity and not by everybody. Luckily, New York is a fabulous place with lots of child free and childless people that are my friends. It is-

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in and get your response because we're going to run out of time. It is funny that she said we're a birtherist nation. I guess we could take that in a Trumpy sense or some other sense. 15 seconds for last bit of advice for Mia to fend off those questions.

Katherine Hertlein: Again, your children sounds wonderful, they sound like they can make their own decision. Focusing on the decision-making component. The second thing they're asking about is, what is your legacy? Be talking about what your legacy is outside of children and what your children's legacy is. That's really what they're getting at.

Brian Lehrer: Katherine Hertlein, relationship therapist and professor in the Couple and Family Therapy Program at the University of Nevada School of Medicine. This was great. Thank you so much for coming on. I think you-

Katherine Hertlein: Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: -helped a bunch of folks today.

Katherine Hertlein: I tried. Thank you so much, have a great day.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.