[music]

Announcer: Listener supported WNYC studios.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. To wrap it up today, how have you been sleeping? If you've been traveling to different time zones over the summer, or socializing a bit later than usual, you might find your sleep schedule is not where it should be right now. Maybe you're going to bed later than you'd like and waking up groggy, needing extra coffee throughout the day, or taking naps during your lunch break, taking melatonin at night, maybe something stronger.

With kids going back to school and the end of Summer Fridays, we all could use more energy to get through our days. Let's wrap up today's show by taking a good look at habits to improve our sleep hygiene. We did a certain kind of advice segment in the month of August. We're going to do this kind for today. Joining us now to help us get back on track is Andrea Petersen, reporter at The Wall Street Journal, covering consumer health.

Her latest piece is titled Why Are You So Tired? Your Sleep Schedule Needs a Reset. Andrea is also the author of the book covering consumer health, On Edge: A Journey Through Anxiety. On Edge, I should say, A Journey Through Anxiety, that came out in 2017. Andrea, thanks for joining. Welcome to WNYC.

Andrea Petersen: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're opening up the phones right away for your tips or tricks to fix your sleep schedule, or your questions for our guest, Andrea Petersen, 212-433-9692. Do we even need to say why proper sleep hygiene is important?

Andrea Petersen: I think a lot of us know that after a couple nights of bad sleep, or even just a night, a lot of us are going to feel groggy and irritable. Things like attention, reaction time, can suffer, but over the long term, there are real negative health effects. Poor sleep's been linked to diabetes, obesity, and high blood pressure.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get into your tips. First off, you recommend we start with a regular wake-up time, as opposed to hopping into bed earlier to get more sleep. Well, why might going to bed earlier backfire on us?

Andrea Petersen: A lot of us are experiencing what some experts call Fall jet lag, where we're trying to start getting up earlier, now that kids are back in school, work obligations can pick up, and summer's really behind us. The impulse might be, "Well, I'm just going to go to bed earlier," but that can actually set us up for insomnia, because the last thing you want to do is go to bed when you're not tired, and that can really throw off your schedule.

What you want to do is start with your wake-up time, and having a consistent wake-up time, day after day, including on the weekends, what that does especially-- If you're trying to move it earlier, do that in increments, a half hour every two or three days. What that will do is, as you move that earlier, you're going to start getting tired earlier. Your bedtime will naturally, gradually, move earlier too.

Brian Lehrer: On keeping the same wake-up time, even on the weekends, why shouldn't we get some extra Z's on a Saturday morning?

Andrea Petersen: Well, basically, what that does is, it can interfere with your circadian rhythm, which is that 24-hour cycle of physical and mental changes that are part of the body's internal clock. If you sleep in later, you're going to go to bed later, and that can just start this vicious cycle. You really want to keep that consistent, to maintain good sleep as the days go on.

Brian Lehrer: Next tip, you recommend that we step outside if we're getting a morning coffee. Now, if this was about personal finance, the advice might be different, but what are the sleep benefits of heading outside for coffee in the mornings?

Andrea Petersen: Getting a bright light in the morning is really important. It's ideally in the first hour after you wake up, because that really helps set this circadian rhythm in a healthy way. Light affects the production of hormones, like melatonin and cortisol, which are involved in wakefulness and sleepiness. Morning sunlight, actually, in particular, contains light frequencies that promote alertness during the day and set you up for a good night's sleep the next night.

The experts that I was talking to say that they don't want to add yet another thing to people's to-do lists. Incorporating that morning outside time in your regular schedule is a great idea. If you normally read The New York Times, or The Wall Street Journal in the morning, over your cup of coffee, do that out on your porch, or if you normally let your dog out in the backyard, join your dog outside, or take them for a walk.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your sleep tips, or sleep tip questions for Andrea Petersen, from The Wall Street Journal, who covers consumer health. Her new article titled Why Are You So Tired? Your Sleep Schedule Needs a Reset. 212-433-WNYC, call, text, or tweet @BrianLehrer, but it's 212-433-9692 on the phones and by text message. Morgan, in Brooklyn, is calling in. Morgan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Morgan: Hi.

Brian Lehrer: Hi.

Morgan: Sorry. I was just wondering-- I'm having no trouble falling asleep, but staying asleep. I usually wake up around 3:00 or 4:00, and cannot go back to sleep. I was wondering if your guest had any tips for that.

Brian Lehrer: I see thousands of heads nodding out there, saying, "Yes, that's me too." Do you get into that aspect of sleeping well, Andrea?

Andrea Petersen: Yes, I have, in previous stories, because you're right, that is a very common insomnia. It's a particular type of insomnia. The recommendations is to do nothing. Initially, try to see if you fall back asleep, but as soon-- Also, don't look at the clock, because as soon as you do that, that is going to start making you anxious, because if you look up and see that it's 3:00 AM, you might start calculating, "Okay, I only have three more hours to sleep."

As soon as you find that you're not sleepy and you're getting a little anxious, the advice is really to get out of bed and to do something really relaxing, like read a book, or listen to some music until you get sleepy again, and then go back to sleep. Avoid light for those, because turning on the light can actually suppress melatonin, which is involved in regulating the sleep-wake cycle. Try not to look at your phone, because that emits that melatonin-suppressing blue light.

I had one sleep doctor who said that it is okay to watch TV in the middle of the night, because the screen on a TV tends to be far enough away, so you're not going to get a lot of that blue light exposure, but he actually suggested wearing sunglasses while you're watching TV in the middle of the night, which I--

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Andrea Petersen: Always reminds me of that Corey Hart song.

Brian Lehrer: Where do you come down on sleep aids? Any kind of substance?

Andrea Petersen: The general recommendation is, if you're having chronic insomnia, where it's lasting weeks, months, then you will probably want to see your doctor, or a sleep specialist. There's something called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, which is actually a non-drug treatment that involves sleep restriction. You actually restrict the amount of time that you have in bed, and that tends to improve sleep over time.

You also restrict the bedroom to only sleep and sex, and that tends to help as well. Obviously, there are things like Ambien and those drugs, but there are significant downsides to those.

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts-- This might seem counterintuitive about waking up in the middle of the night. Listener writes, "When I wake up in the middle of the night and cannot sleep, I do not look at any clocks, but I do get on my treadmill and walk for about 15 to 20 minutes. After that, I fall right to sleep." First of all, I hope that person has no downstairs neighbors, but second of all, I think we would assume that exercise revs us up and would make it harder to go back to sleep. He did say walk, not run.

Andrea Petersen: That's interesting that it works for that person, but that would not be the general recommendation, because as you've mentioned, exercise tends to be activating. One of the things, actually, that can help us boost alertness, is exercising in the morning, which can boost alertness and then set us up for a good night's sleep later that night. Regarding exercise, experts generally recommend that you want to finish your exercise or get your exercise at least four to six hours before bedtime, so that you're not activated.

Also, exercise tends to boost your body temperature, and a lower body temperature is much more conducive to sleep. That is great that that works for that listener, but I'd be curious to find out-- It's not a general recommendation to do that. No way.

Brian Lehrer: I'm just going to read for our listeners, because our time is limited. Your 3, 2, 1 method for going to sleep. Stop eating three hours before bedtime, since a full stomach can make you uncomfortable and interfere with sleep. Stop working two hours before, and stop using electronics, like tablets, phones, and computers, one hour before. Another tip of yours is to make a to-do list for the next day, at night, before we go to bed. Why might this be helpful?

Andrea Petersen: Well, I think a lot of us have had the experience where we're lying in bed, things are finally quiet, and that's a time when we can start ruminating about all the things that we were supposed to do during the day that we didn't get to, and all the things that are on our to-do list the next day. What making a to-do list-- It's great to complete it at least an hour before bed.

You get those thoughts out of your head and onto a piece of paper, you've got that, you can let those thoughts settle, and it will set you up for a more restful night's sleep

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts, "I can recommend putting on a podcast if you wake up in the middle of the night, preferably a boring podcast with the volume a little too low to hear easily, and don't do anything else." Listener, we'll try to make some boring podcasts for you. No, we won't, actually, [laughs] but how about that?

Andrea Petersen: That's actually a great idea. I talked to one expert who mentioned that there are several podcasts that are actually meant to be boring. She mentioned one where they have people who are reading stories like Little Red Riding Hood, things that everyone knows and heard, but doing it in a monotone voice, and the whole point is to help people go off to sleep.

Brian Lehrer: Frank, in Garrison, you're on WNYC. Hi, Frank.

Frank: Hey, good morning, Brian. My question is not sleeping during the night, but taking afternoon naps. My wife is not always happy with me taking a nap to refresh, but what's your opinion of that?

Andrea Petersen: It really depends on if you're having trouble sleeping. If you're someone that deals with insomnia, napping is generally not a great idea, because as someone said to me at once, taking a nap is like eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich right before dinner. You're just not going to have the appetite if you do that. If you get that bit of sleep, you could set yourself up for having trouble falling asleep at night.

If you do feel like you really need to take a nap, the experts I've talked to said-- Keep it to 20 minutes or less so that you're not making it less likely that you'll be able to fall asleep at night. There's a difference between someone who maybe is able to do that and is still having an okay time falling asleep, an easy time falling asleep, versus somebody who might be having insomnia.

Brian Lehrer: One more. I think Michael, in Croton-on-Hudson, is in the category of, "This applies to everybody except me, there's nothing I can do in my situation." Or is there? Michael, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Michael: Thanks, Brian. Longtime listener, first-time caller. Appreciate the show. I have a five-month-old, he just started to sleep through the night, but sometimes, he doesn't sleep through the night. For the limited sleep I am able to get, how can I get the most out of what little sleep I have?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, boy. With newborns, none of this applies, too bad, you're just out of luck, or anything different than that, Andrea? 30 seconds.

Andrea Petersen: That is a rough one. I feel for you. I guess [laughs] what I'll say is that they eventually do sleep during the night, and this too shall pass, because that's one of those things, keeping a bedroom quiet, cool, dark, and uncluttered, are the ways to really invite sleep, and a newborn is hard to reconcile with that.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea Peterson wrote the 2017 book On Edge-- Oh, and now this popped off my screen. Where did it go? Oh, there it is, On Edge: A Journey Through Anxiety. That's her book, her new article in the Wall Street Journal, where she covers consumer health is, Why are you so tired? Your sleep schedule needs a reset. Andrea, thanks for sharing all those tips. That was great.

Andrea Petersen: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for you today, produced by MaryEileen Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen handles our Daily Politics podcast. Juliana Fonda at the Audio controls. Happy waking today. Happy sleeping tonight. Have a great weekend. Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Stay tuned for All Of It.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.