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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We have Eric Holder coming up on today's show, the US Attorney General under President Obama. He's now Chairman of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, so, a lot to talk to Eric Holder about regarding the past and present. He's the co-author of a new book called, Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past and Imperiled Future of the Vote-A History, a Crisis, a Plan. I think it'll be interesting to get Eric Holder's plan for voting rights in this country considering everything that's going on.

We're also going to ask him, yes, if he has a plan for abortion rights too, considering the news. I have a feeling he's going to connect the two. That will be with Eric Holder in about an hour.

We'll also continue our series, 51 Council Members in 52 Weeks. It's Week 19. We're up to District 19 as we enter Queens for the first time in the series. Those districts go numerically, borough by borough. The first 10 are in Manhattan. The next eight are in the Bronx. Now we enter Queens, starting later this hour, District 19, with City Councilmember Vickie Paladino from Northeast Queens. We'll end the show much later with a call-in. With all this big national and international news that we must talk about a lot these days, Roe v. Wade, Ukraine, everything, hyperlocal stories are sometimes lost in the shuffle.

We will have a call-in later in the show to invite you to share the most local news from your block or your neighborhood. What's going on that could, or should, or would make the news? We begin here. According to the National Institutes of Health, an estimated 1 in 4 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage before 20 weeks. Now, a miscarriage is not an abortion, so why are we talking about this? In light of the leaked draft from Supreme Court Justice, Samuel Alito, to overturn Roe v. Wade, activists, and healthcare providers are saying that making abortions illegal could have a negative impact on miscarriage care.

That's because some of the same medications and procedures used in abortions are also used to safely end miscarriages. The impact on providers, for example, can be chilling, and then that trickles down to an impact on the patients. Maybe you saw the op-ed in the New York Times, the column really, by their parenting columnist, Jessica Grose. She wrote, "Doctors wind up being afraid to conduct any procedure that may be misconstrued as an illegal abortion even when they're treating patients who miscarry.

Women can then wind up with little choice about how their miscarriages end, sometimes simply having to wait to miscarry 'naturally', which may take weeks and risk their health in the process." That, from Jessica Grose's parenting column in the Times. Joining us now to discuss the impact of overturning Roe v. Wade on miscarriage care is Dr. Kristyn Brandi, obstetrician-gynecologist and Board Chair with Physicians for Reproductive Health. Dr. Brandi, thanks so much for some time today. Welcome to WNYC.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll open up the phones for you right away on this. If you're a healthcare provider who takes care of patients who are undergoing miscarriages, can you share how abortion and abortion rights intersect with compassionate and medically necessary miscarriage care for some people, or if you're someone who was having a miscarriage and received medical care for it, what do you want to share about that experience that might be relevant in the context of the new threat to Roe? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Obviously, not just the new threat to Roe, but the states in which abortion is already severely restricted.

Maybe any of you listening are not just in the New York area, where we broadcast from, but around the country in some of the states where maybe this is already an issue, not waiting for the Supreme Court. Dr. Brandi, that stat might be shocking for some people to hear that one-quarter of pregnancies end in miscarriage. As a health care provider, what is the range of reasons for that?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I would agree that many patients that I see with miscarriage are shocked to find out how common an experience it is that one in four pregnancies end in miscarriage. It can happen for a number of reasons. Sometimes it's related to a person's health, where a pregnancy may be dangerous for someone and the body knows that and starts the miscarriage process. The most common reason is actually related to genetic abnormalities in that pregnancy, that the body, again, recognizes and ends the pregnancy, but many times, we don't know.

It's really hard to get testing after a miscarriage, and so it's really challenging sometimes to find a reason why.

Brian Lehrer: NBC News recently reported, "The same clinical skills used in surgical abortion procedures are often the same as those needed to clear the uterine lining after a miscarriage to prevent serious complications." Can you explain the medical procedure that is commonly used in miscarriage care, that they're referring to there, and in what circumstances it's applied?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Sure. You're right that the procedure that people would undergo to clear a uterus after a miscarriage is the exact same procedure that is used for procedural abortion in the first trimester. It's called the dilation and curettage, short-term for D&C. It's a procedure, essentially, where we use a vacuum to extract all the tissue inside the uterus. It has a whole bunch of applications that we use it for outside of pregnancy. Someone that has heavy bleeding, someone that has potential endometrial cancer. It's a procedure that's used for a lot of different things, including abortion care.

I'll also mention that the medication we use to treat people with miscarriage, to help them go through the process of a miscarriage, is the exact same regimen that we use for medication abortion in the first trimester. Exact same care, but being used for different applications.

Brian Lehrer: Why is that? Those procedures and medications didn't always exist. What sorts of complications are we talking about, from physical ones to mental health outcomes, to whatever, for people who have to continue to carry the fetus after it's clear that they are or are going to miscarry?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: It can be really traumatic for someone to know that their pregnancy is not normal, and it's not going to continue, but to carry that pregnancy. It takes potentially up to eight weeks for someone's body to undergo the miscarriage process if no intervention is done. Again, some people might find that pretty traumatic. Some people, this is a very desired pregnancy, and either are in a grieving process or want to get pregnant again very soon and so, waiting sometimes is not a great option.

As far as complications medically, sometimes this process, because it takes a while, sometimes there's a risk of infection, or during the process, a risk of heavy bleeding or hemorrhage that may even require a transfusion. There are some risks for waiting, but generally, if you wait several weeks, it is a process that will undergo itself with very minimal complications, and medication and procedure also are very, very safe.

Brian Lehrer: Talk about the medication. You talked a little bit about the D&C procedure. Some of the same medications used in abortions can also be used for managing a miscarriage, I see. What are these drugs, and what do they do?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: There's two medications typically that we use for both miscarriage and abortion care. The first one, called mifepristone or Mifeprex, the brand name, is a medication that helps both, stop the pregnancy from growing in an abortion case, as well as soften the cervix and helps the next medications work better. Usually, 24 hours later, patients will take 4 pills called misoprostol or side attack. Those medications cause the uterus to cramp and bleed to help pass the pregnancy in either case. Again, exact same medications being used for different purposes, but the same general effect of emptying a uterus.

It's really challenging because these medications are the same thing. If there's any type of restrictions around the mifepristone, for example, which is highly regulated by the FDA, those restrictions not only impact abortion care, but they also impact people's ability to get this medication in the case of miscarriage.

Brian Lehrer: When would a person ending their miscarriage and their doctor decide to do one procedure versus another, or let's say the D&C procedure versus medication, or are they used together?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Usually, they're done separately, but really it's a conversation at least that I have with my patients in a shared decision-making fashion. Meaning that I explain the pros and cons of both. There are different experiences that people feel, but luckily, both of them are incredibly safe. Medication abortion is 95% effective, and the same goes for successful miscarriage management. D&C is 99.9% effective, so very similar effectiveness levels. Really, it's based on what the patient wants to experience during this process and letting the patient decide what's best for them.

Brian Lehrer: The experiences are different?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Yes. With the medication management, again, it's very similar to what people typically describe as a miscarriage. It's very crampy, you have bleeding that can last for several hours. The D&C is a little bit more invasive because we are doing a procedure, but it's something that takes about five minutes. It's, can be done in an office setting or in a hospital with different levels of anesthesia. Again, different experiences and patients may have preferences about which one they would prefer.

Brian Lehrer: Before we go to some calls, and even more explicitly why banning abortion would threaten quality miscarriage care, I want to ask you a terminology question. At what stage is a pregnancy loss, which is sometimes referred to medically as a spontaneous abortion, called a miscarriage? What's it called afterwards? Why does the word abortion even get in there?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I think it's always interesting because medical terminology is often different or interpreted differently than what I'll call lay terms. Medically, an abortion is any pregnancy that ends in the first tremester in early pregnancy. Spontaneous abortion implies that the body does it on its own, versus what we typically call abortion, we often, in medicine, call an induced abortion, meaning we did something to intervene. All pregnancies that end in the first tremester, and even in the second trimester, really under 20 weeks, we call medically, an abortion regardless of how it came about.

After about 20 weeks, often refer to this, depending on what happened in a pre-term labor or in intrauterine fetal demise, usually after 20 weeks or so.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, we're talking about why health care providers are saying that making abortions illegal could have a negative impact on miscarriage care with Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB-GYN and Board Chair with Physicians for Reproductive Health. I think it won't surprise you, Dr. Brandi, that with just that one mention that I made at the top, our lines are full with people who either want to tell their stories or ask you a question. 212-433-WNYC. You can also tweet @BrianLehrer. Here, I think we're going to get a 40-year-old story that may portend something about the future.

Mary in White Plains, you're on WNYC. Mary, thank you so much for calling in. Hello?

Mary: Hello. Yes, back in the '80s, my husband and I very much wanted to have children. We got pregnant several times, had seven pregnancies, but five ended up in miscarriages. In each of those cases, I had to get a D&C. In one particular case, the doctor asked me to lie and pretend I was bleeding when I was admitted to a Catholic hospital. In another case, I had to cross protest lines to get my procedure. It was very traumatic.

Brian Lehrer: What was that like crossing the protest lines? Did people scream at you or anything?

Mary: Yes, people screamed. It was just, I was a strong believer in the right to abortion at the time, so I was annoyed enough at them as it was. As a matter of fact, my congregation used to routinely, on Saturdays, walk people across protest lines, who wanted to have an abortion. Chin up, and you have to do what you have to do. They weren't going to deter me. I wasn't going to stop and tell them my story because I had my own thing I had to deal with in that moment. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to tell that story.

Brian Lehrer: You weren't even going in for an abortion, you were going in for care for a miscarriage.

Mary: Exactly, for a baby that I really, really wanted.

Brian Lehrer: Mary, I hear how it's painful even now to tell that story. I'm sorry, but I appreciate that you did because I think it's good for the other listeners to hear it. What are you thinking as you hear that story, Dr. Brandi?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I'm really sorry that you went through this process, but it's, unfortunately, a really common process that many people undergoing miscarriage go through. People like myself that specialize in abortion care, also often specialize in things like miscarriage management. That care happens in the same spaces, including abortion clinics. Patients may have to go through the process like this person did, through walking through picket lines and trying to manage this emotionally as they're also being targeted by abortion protestors, which, like was reflected, is really traumatic for some people, and shouldn't be a way that people have to get care.

Brian Lehrer: Let's hear somebody else's story. Here's Alexis in Port Washington. You're on WNYC. Hi, Alexis?

Alexis: Hi, Brian, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: I'm okay, thank you.

Alexis: Good. My story is, and, I guess, it is a little bit of a question as well, I experienced an ectopic pregnancy several years ago. It ultimately had to be treated with methotrexate. This happened only several months after I had already had a laparoscopic surgery, and there was obviously the potential of another laparoscopic surgery. I happened to be on blood thinners at the time, so it turned into a really dangerous situation really quickly. I never had put myself in that category of women whose lives could be endangered by their pregnancy. I guess I'm just wondering how this would impact women who have ectopic pregnancies.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Brandi?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: That's a great question and something that, unfortunately, a lot of people practicing in places that have abortion restrictions are trying to figure out. For those listening, an ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy that instead of implanting in the uterus, implants somewhere else, like the fallopian tubes, the ovaries, which are really dangerous. As they grow, potentially they can cause, in the case of a pregnancy in the tube, they can burst the tube open and cause hemorrhage. That is a medical emergency. The concern is that it is a pregnancy, and in order to fix the problem, you have to end the pregnancy.

Some people may interpret that as an abortion even though it is medically necessary care. It's really a challenge for people in abortion restrictions, and something I'm really worried about as more states undergo restrictions, that care like ectopic pregnancies, may be something that providers may not know exactly if that's something that they can provide or not, which can be catastrophic to people's health.

Brian Lehrer: One more in these set of stories. Then I see we have another OB-GYN provider calling in. Leslie in Brooklyn, be patient if you can. We will definitely get to you. Michelle in San Francisco is next though. Michelle, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in. Hello, from New York.

Michelle: Hi, Brian, good morning. Yes, like all of the callers, I have a story, and I wanted just to share. I am somebody who has had three miscarriages. It's, just the miscarriages itself has been traumatic. Also, when I was younger, I had an abortion. I think having those options is crucial. From my experience having an abortion, and then also my experience with my miscarriages, I had the care that I needed, and I am so grateful. This kind of care needs to be accessible for everybody who's birthing, for everybody who wants or cannot have a child.

Just, I had the care that I needed. To think that that care is not accessible is, it's absurd. It's ridiculous because I was able to heal. With each case, with each moment, I was able to heal.

Brian Lehrer: Through the help of your providers is the point you're making, right?

Michelle: Correct, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle, thank you so much for your call. To that point, Dr. Brandi, I've read that countries like Malta, which has a total ban on abortions with no exceptions, and Poland where, according to Amnesty International, abortion is only permitted in situations of risk to the life or health of a pregnant woman, or if a pregnancy results from rape, doctors are grappling with miscarriage care. Are you familiar with what kinds of decisions medical providers are having to make in some of these countries where the question the US may be about to face is already in play?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Absolutely. When I think about those countries, I get very worried. I feel for the providers in those places that are trying to make these really challenging decisions. When abortion is illegal in a country, including potentially in the US, depending on what happens in your state, doctors are forced to make decisions that may not be the standard of care. We've talked about that ectopic pregnancy example, where there could be a pregnancy with cardiac activity, where, in that state, to end that pregnancy would be illegal, but to save that person's life, that's what's necessary.

Unfortunately, in these places, that's the decisions that doctors have to make, and they risk their license, they risk their job to be able to provide that care. I know for me that sounds like a terrible choice to be between. To be deciding your patient's health versus your own livelihood, and potentially going to jail, other consequences. I'm really concerned about what's going on in our country. I'm hopeful that we can find a way that doctors can continue to provide care for patients that we know is the standard of care.

Brian Lehrer: One story along these lines from another country, let's see, it's unclear to me which country this comes from, but this was in The Guardian reported after the death of a 30-year-old pregnant woman in November of last year. It says she died of septic shock after doctors refused to provide miscarriage care because the fetus's heart was still beating, though not viable. The New York Times parenting columnist, Jessica Grose, writes, "Physicians may have been afraid to break the country's laws because the penalty is spending three years in prison."

That goes right to the heart of the dilemma that some doctors and other providers in this country may already be facing in some states or may be about to face if Roe is overturned, and all these trigger laws in various states go into effect, that the doctor was perhaps afraid to break that other country's laws, in this case, because the penalty was spending time in prison, right, even though it was miscarriage care?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Right. I never want to be at that crossroads where, in a moment, I'm making decision for patient care. I know the right decision, I've had the medical training that tells me, based on experience and knowledge, that this is the right choice. This is the best thing for this person, and I have to doubt my decision because of legal restrictions around this care, especially for things that, in that particular case, using this concept of cardiac activity or a fetal heartbeat, which is complicated and hard to explain, but legally is very vague.

It's hard for me, as a physician, to make a decision on a law that wasn't written by doctors. It's hard to interpret in that medical decision because each pregnancy is really different.

Brian Lehrer: In a no-legal-abortion state, would a fetal heartbeat be a bar to diagnosing something as a miscarriage?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Potentially. Just for people listening, the concept of the fetal heartbeat is complicated because, as you can imagine, everything is growing in pregnancy in different stages. We can start seeing electrical activity of what will eventually be cardiac cells, as early as six weeks or so, which is the component of many of these new abortion restrictions in the South. That doesn't mean that if that fetus or that embryo were to deliver at six weeks that it would continue to survive this concept of viability. Having restrictions like this that target a particular type of development when we know that there's no good outcome for that pregnancy, unfortunately, for some people, it's really hard. It's really hard as a physician to interpret these laws again because they're not written by medical providers and don't take into account all the unique circumstances of each individual person's pregnancy.

Brian Lehrer: We have to take a break. We'll continue in a minute with OB-GYN, Dr. Brandi. Leslie in Brooklyn, we're going to take you right after the break. I see an OB-GYN provider considering already how she may have to make changes to her practice even here in New York. Stay with-- [sound cut]

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're talking about the implications of overturning Roe v. Wade for miscarriage care in this country with Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB-GYN and board chair with Physicians for Reproductive Health, and Leslie in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Thank you for your patience, Leslie. Hi, you're on the air.

Leslie: Hi. Good morning. First-time caller, long-time listener. Love you Brian and the show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Leslie: I'm very appreciative, Dr. Brandi, and this current segment. Safe to say that I feel fortunate practicing in New York, which I'm hoping will always be a safe haven for women nationally, to come and seek care that is standard to our practice. I would just like to echo that what Dr. Brandi has already disclosed is that abortion is healthcare. I cannot imagine practicing in the state in which, even before last week, our practitioners are subject to restricting the conversation that is so personal to the patients that they serve. I, myself, we have cases in which clients have, and Dr. Brandi can also expound on this, second-trimester cases, clients where loss can happen.

The water can break in pregnancy at 15, second-trimester end. The standard of care is to offer clients the termination of the pregnancy that is not going to be viable or not going to proceed to a normal term pregnancy. What happens to those women in other states? I feel that I will always be a purveyor for reproductive justice in my practice here and forever. I'm personally not fearful of what can happen to me within the care that I provide, but it is very important that I continue to be part of that if you are a [unintelligible 00:26:55] practice in medicine for just basic standard of care for women.

Brian Lehrer: I hear your commitment and that maybe you are ready to be part of the effort to make New York a sanctuary state, as some elected officials have already referred to it.

Leslie: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: If these trigger laws do take effect in a lot of other states, and it's already happening, there are already thousands of women coming to New York from what I've read, from states that have severely restricted abortion rights, are you worried though, about the kind of scenario that we were just talking about, and some of the legal scenarios that you've probably been hearing, where a state like Texas where bounty hunters can, under their law, report people who are providing what are there, illegal abortions to women from Texas, and whether some of these states may try to come and go after you, in some respect, here?

Leslie: I would just like to express that I'm not driven by fear. I feel that, and in practice also, and in living in New York state, that there are entities which will protect us. There are legal scholars, entities that will shield us potentially from these bounty hunters if you will. I became a physician for a certain reason. I became an OB-GYN for these reasons to provide care for my patients. Nothing is going to stop me from doing that, and no bounty hunter is going to prevent me from doing so.

Brian Lehrer: Not driven by fear. Leslie in Brooklyn, thank you so much for your call [crosstalk].

Leslie: No. Thank you. Keep it coming, please.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Wow, Dr. Brandi.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I echo a lot of Leslie's statements that I hate the thought of having government or this legislation restrict my ability to provide the best care that I know I can provide to patients. This is why went into OB-GYN. This is why I'm an abortion provider is because I want to be able to provide the best care for people regardless of what they need. I know that's a privileged statement, that I practice in New Jersey, a state that also has very few restrictions.

I'm very fortunate to be able to do that. I know my friends and colleagues that are providing this care in other restricted states like Texas, aren't as lucky and aren't able to navigate the system as easily because their own lives are on the line. Their own careers are on the line, and that's a really heartbreaking place to be in.

Brian Lehrer: To the story that we were telling before the break from The Guardian, of the death of a 30-year-old pregnant woman, that turns out to have been in Poland, which I didn't say before. I didn't know, but my producer now told me. The woman died of septic shock after doctors refused to provide miscarriage care because the fetus's heart was beating, though the fetus was not deemed viable, and the doctors may have been afraid to break the country's law. There is the Texas Heartbeat Act, which bans abortion after the detection of fetal cardiac activity, which does typically happen, like you said, around six weeks into a pregnancy.

I'm seeing that six other states, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio have similar laws according to a New York Times article in 2019. In her article called These Laws Are Making Miscarriage More Traumatic in America, that New York Times parenting columnist, Jessica Grose, wrote an early draft of a Missouri bill seemed to outlaw treatment for an ectopic pregnancy, which happens, as you were describing before, when a fertilized egg implants outside the uterus. That bill has since been amended, I'm seeing, but as a doctor, can you talk about what problems you potentially run into when lawmakers legislate healthcare in this kind of way?

If ectopic pregnancies are not viable in any circumstance, which I believe is the case, why would they even be talking about ending one as a Class A felony in Missouri or any state?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I think, unfortunately, it's just that the people that are writing these laws don't understand the medicine, and they don't understand the people that need this care. You're right, like this ectopic pregnancy, I remember a couple of years ago, there was talk about a lawmaker suggesting that ectopic pregnancies could just be moved to the uterus, and then could continue normally, which is not something that exists in science and medicine.

It just goes to show that people that are writing these laws don't necessarily know that. I don't fault them for that, but I would prefer that people writing laws have understanding of medicine and not create more barriers to the care that people need. That case in Poland, I'm thinking about patients that, I think Leslie also mentioned, that will break their water early in pregnancy, where it is very clear the standard of care in medicine is to end the pregnancy because otherwise, as that poor person in Poland experienced, they can become infected.

That infection can travel around the body, go into shock, and people can die. It's really a scary thing to think about how legislation laws could prevent providers from providing the care that patients absolutely need to save their lives, and doing so just because of fear, fear of breaking the law. That's not how medicine should be practiced.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Laura in Brooklyn, who says she's graduating med school this week. Laura, you're on WNYC. Do I have that right?

Laura: Yes. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Congratulations.

Laura: Thank you very much. My question for Dr. Brandi is, in med school, I've been very involved in Medical Students for Choice and various abortion activism. I'm going into internal medicine because of just my professional interests, but I'd like to stay involved in abortion activism and abortion care if possible. What are the roles that you see for non-OB-GYN physicians in this struggle?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: First, congratulations. I know it's a long road, so I'm glad that you have finished that step of medicine.

Laura: Thank you.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I think non-OB-GYNs play a crucial in abortion provision, reproductive healthcare. I think many people think that OB-GYNs are the only people that provide care to people that are pregnant, but internal medicine, family medicine, emergency medicine are all people that could potentially take care of people at various stages of pregnancy. I think it's critical, and I think there are roles for, for example, internal medicine to have training within residency programs so that people can learn about early pregnancy management.

It's also great for people that are providing primary care to do this work because many patients prefer to deal with these complex issues around pregnancy, with people that they know, with the providers that take care of them for their diabetes and hypertension. I think it's a great idea. Also, we just need support in other forms of medicine. People that are providing abortion often are ostracized within medicine and so, having colleagues and allies in other fields is really critical for us to continue to do the work that we're doing.

Brian Lehrer: Laura, thank you, and good luck out there.

Laura: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Is there an opportunity, and don't tell anyone, I won't tell anyone if you tell me there is, for doctors in illegal states to perform abortions and say they were miscarriages?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I would not recommend people overtly break the law. I think it's interesting that miscarriages and abortions are so closely linked. Often, it's something that medically, people can interpret in different ways than the law because I think the law is very vague and doesn't necessarily have this basis in medicine. I trust doctors to make the best decisions that are based on their training.

I would not overtly tell people to break the law, but I would tell people that they should use their best medical judgment. I'm hopeful that they can provide the care that is within that medical judgment if they need to.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, you're a doctor in New Jersey where Governor Phil Murphy has signed abortion rights into law and passed by the legislature there as the opposite of a trigger law. Like if Roe is overturned, abortion will remain legal in New Jersey, and you're part of a national group of providers dealing with this issue. Maybe this is a crazy question, but if a person is going through a miscarriage in a state where abortion is essentially outlawed, or in one of the trigger states that will make abortion illegal if Roe is overturned, where do you even begin to advise that patient on how to obtain miscarriage care and protect themselves from prosecution, whether it's mistaken or not?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: One, I'm just very fortunate to be in a state where our governor, as you mentioned, passed a law to protect our patients, our people from unnecessary abortion restrictions. I know that's not the case for other places. That other places are going to be going the exact opposite direction. I think something that is not talked about enough, both in the abortion debate, but also how that ties into miscarriage, is that care often is disproportionately difficult to access for certain marginalized groups, like people of color, low-income people, LGBTQ people, undocumented people, young people.

When I think about people in restrictive states, and how are they going to get to my state in New Jersey, in New York, they may not be able to just because of logistics of travel, and childcare, and all the things that people need to consider in the ability to access care. People that are doing great work, that are helping people access care that may have difficulty, are abortion funds. Organizations that raise money to help people cover the cost of their care, but also cover logistics of childcare and travel. Those organizations are doing great work to help people get into care and different organizations like The National Abortion Federation.

There's different networks that people can look in their local area and find questions or find answers about, "Where do I go? What places are open? What places will take care of me?" regardless of the care that they need. I'm hopeful that people will become aware of more resources so, that way, they can, if they need to travel, find information about where the best place is to go.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it with Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB-GYN and Board Chair with Physicians for Reproductive Health. Thank you so much for coming on with us. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Thank you so much. Take care.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, listeners, I want to let you know, as a matter of a program note, that, in addition to our morning show here, I'm going to be hosting a live national call-in show this Thursday evening at eight o'clock, where we will talk more about the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade. What will happen legally, what will happen medically, what will happen socially if that does happen in the way that's signaled in the draft that was leaked from the Supreme Court. I know we're going to be on in Boston, and I know we're going to be on in Houston.

We'll be on around the country, so tell your friends and other loved ones if you're interested in letting them listen to this and participate. It'll be a national call-in show Thursday night at eight o'clock Eastern Time. My guest will include Errin Haines, who is Texas-based, and founder of the news site, The 19th. The 19th, it refers to the 19th amendment, which gave women the right to vote. Also, Jessica Bruder, who was on this show last week, she wrote that excellent cover story for The Atlantic called The Abortion Underground, which was about an abortion underground of the past in this country, and the one that may start developing in the future.

Jessica Bruder and Errin Haines, calls from around the country Thursday night at 8:00 here on WNYC.

 

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