[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show, on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. After a weekend with so many developments in the story of today's asylum seekers from Latin America and the Caribbean in the New York area, and nationally, from the don't believe the pundits file, the expiration, on Friday morning, of the Title 47 Covid border restrictions were supposed to produce a massive new-- Title 42, forgive me. A massive new wave of asylum seekers.

Instead, according to the reports this morning, the flow actually diminished by about half. Here's Governor Hochul, on Thursday, saying what she's doing and what she was led to believe.

Governor Hochul: We're looking at state properties. I've talked to the federal government about federal properties and trying to stand up more sites, because it's been managed, but now we have this enormous influx of individuals that we anticipate coming unless something radically different happens at the border.

Brian Lehrer: Well, something dramatically different did start happening at the border, at least so far, but that still means thousands of people crossing the border every day, seeking asylum, another 5,000 or so arriving in New York City just this month, according to Mayor Adams, and backlash like this, against housing any of them, in hotels in the suburbs, from Orange County Executive Steve Neuhaus.

Steve Neuhaus: There's counties around the state that said, "You know what? I got an empty dormitory, I got some empty stuff, I'll take you tomorrow." They just need to put these guys together. This way, you're bringing these folks to a welcoming, non-hostile environment. I don't know what we're getting into here.

Brian Lehrer: I guess he's calling his county, Orange County, a hostile environment to people seeking asylum, and embracing it. Rockland County's Executive, and even the city of Yonkers, a very diverse city, as most of you know, borders the Bronx, borders New York City, also pushing back hard on places the mayor has found for individuals and families to stay, we'll talk about Yonkers. Within the city, Mayor Adams announced a major processing center for the former Roosevelt Hotel, which had closed in Midtown.

He's talking about sites on Coney Island and in Staten Island, as well as the locations outside the city. He's suspending certain right-to-shelter standards that he says he can't meet for the moment, with so many arrivals at once, there was pushback on that. Before we get into the questions yet to be answered, issues that have multiple sides, and all the rejection of asylum seekers taking place in greater New York, the city of immigrants, there is at least this nice Mother's Day story.

City council member Gale Brewer, from Manhattan, held a West 87th Street Migrant Mother's Day event. The release for it said Brewer and volunteers are excited to distribute 200 Mother's Day gift bags to moms residing at two Upper West Side shelters for migrant families, and we know things happened elsewhere in the area. With that, we welcome back Murad Awawdeh, Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition, which helps and advocates for immigrants in our area. Murad, good to have you on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Murad Awawdeh: Hey. Good morning, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: I saw on your Twitter feed that you were tweeting a lot about Mother's Day yesterday, and reminding people that immigrant families have moms too, all of that kind of thing. Was Council Member Brewer's event a one-off, or were you aware of other things like this taking place on Mother's Day, around our area?

Murad Awawdeh: I do know that Council Member Brewer is one of the most energetic and dynamic council members that we have. She's a little bit of a trendsetter, you might say, but no, there are others, but huge shout out to Gale Brewer. She's one of our biggest champions. We had Catalina Cruz, in Queens, giving out Mother's Day bags, as well. Mother's Day is a big day for all communities, so folks just want an opportunity to thank their moms.

It's great when we see our elected officials stepping up, and other folks, to thank mothers, especially when they're navigating so many different challenges.

Brian Lehrer: Can you give us your big picture take on who's been coming to the US and to New York, and why, in the current numbers in the last year or so, what we're considering the current wave, more or less, before we drill down on the particular controversies in and around New York City?

Murad Awawdeh: I would say the vast majority of folks who started coming into the United States last year, around February, in an increased number, were Venezuelans. In addition to Venezuelans, we've seen an increase of Colombians, Peruvians, El Salvadorians, folks who are literally fleeing for their lives. It's not the historical communities that have been migrating to New York, because New York City and New York state have welcomed immigrants and refugees for centuries.

Migrants come to New York every year, every month, every day, people are coming to New York. This is not a unique situation. What is unique is that there is no community or familial connection for these folks, who then need to stay in shelter for a short period of time. We saw an increase of folks starting to come in, and then over the summer, at a much higher rate.

Initially, folks who were being sent to Washington, DC, about 15%, actually stayed in the DC area, then many of the folks migrated north, to New York City, and some went up to Boston. That's when we started seeing an increased number, last year. We continue to see folks arriving in New York, but Venezuela being the largest country of origin from any of these folks, is also because Venezuela has a lot of issues going on right now.

It's living through a political mess, and folks are truly trying to escape for their lives, in coming and seeking refuge and safety here.

Brian Lehrer: If it's already 60,000 plus in the last year, to New York City, like the mayor says, and there's all this news and conflict, just in the last week, about where people will sleep. What's been happening this whole past year, in that respect? I feel like this has just broken out as a news story, and as an area of conflict between the mayor and other local elected officials just outside the city, but it's 60,000 over the last year. It's not all of a sudden happening in the last two weeks.

What's been happening, housing-wise, over this whole period of time? Where are people?

Murad Awawdeh: I think it's actually 75,000 to 100,000 people, with about 30,000 in the care of the city, currently. 75,000 to 100,000 people who've come to New York City, New York state, and only about a third are actually in the city's care. What we're seeing, also, is that many of the folks going into shelter, specifically the men, are not staying very long. They're staying for a few weeks at most, two or three months, but mostly between four and six weeks, getting work in the informal economy, and then being able to find a place on their own.

I think that the bigger piece here is that we've had a broken shelter system before asylum seekers started entering it. It's been broken for decades. We've seen the large increase of people entering the shelter system over the past couple years, specifically over the past year, when the eviction moratorium amended, as well as the impacts of Covid, and many folks becoming unhoused and needing emergency shelter.

One of our early demands to New York City was that we needed to get folks who've historically been in the shelter system for two, three years, to get them out and into permanent housing. I know that that may seem very simple-minded, the solution, getting people into housing, but it seems to be a real big challenge for the city to do that. We want to make sure to continue to push for folks who've historically been in the shelter system to get support in getting out.

I think that is part of the prom right now. We've also seen a decrease in staffing across city agencies. Some are saying it's intentional, some are saying it's not intentional. City's having a hard time hiring folks, but every agency across the city, there are tens of thousands of positions that are vacant right now. I think that's adding to a little bit of the pressure right now.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, help us report this story, as we often say, are you connected to any of the migrant families who've come since around February of last year? Are you a member of one of the migrant families who's come since around February of last year, from Venezuela, or anywhere else? Anyone in any of the northern suburban counties where there's conflict, or for that matter, some neighborhoods of New York City where there's conflict?

We'll get into that over where to house some of the asylum seekers temporarily. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, your voice is welcome. Please help us report this story if you have any connection to this story, and you can voice an opinion as well, from wherever or, ask a question of Murad Awawdeh, Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition, which helps and advocates for immigrants in our area. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, come on in.

Murad, the northern cities and suburbs, those officials say they don't want to be overwhelmed. That it's not about race, or nimbyism, or nativism, do you give them any credit for having actual logistical concerns?

Murad Awawdeh: I don't. When the announcement was first made, one of the first things we said is that this must be coordinated, and we said that from the beginning. We said the federal government needs to take leadership so that other states and folks like Greg Abbott, who is a bigot and a xenophobe, aren't using people as political pawns and that we're actually having a federal response to people going to where they want to go.

Similarly, in this situation, we have been very clear to the city, they should definitely support people on going to where they want to go. Supporting means also coordinating. This is a moment for Governor Hochul to step up and coordinate as well, across the state, to make sure that there's adequate regions that we can be sending folks to. We've worked on this before. We've done this many times over.

I do think that the two county executives above us, County Exec Day, and Neuhaus-- To their credit, I will give them grace in saying that maybe the mayor should have coordinated better with them. At the end of the day, some of the language that they've been using is pretty dangerous. We don't need dangerous and violent rhetoric in our ether, because what we do know is that dangerous and violent rhetoric leads to dangerous and violent acts.

To be transparent here, the city's actually incurring the costs and managing the situation outside of the city. They wouldn't be handling anything as the county, the city will still continue to be providing the shelter, providing the care, providing the service to individuals who are in whichever hotel that they open up in those areas, as they are right now, in the Newburgh facility. The rhetoric that we were hearing is really laced with anti-immigrant sentiment, that's completely uncalled for.

In this moment, where we're seeing an actual affordability and housing crisis, we need to actually all be working together. It's not just New York City's issue, it's not just Brooklyn, or Newburgh, or Orange County's issue. It's actually a national issue, and that's why this is even more important. If we were able to get this right, we can actually solve a lot of other issues that we're seeing across the board.

Brian Lehrer: What is happening in Newburgh right now? If you want to take that example, we know that there have been places where the mayor has gotten hotel rooms that the city was going to pay for, then there was pushback, and the mayor pulled back, I guess some places, I think, including Newburgh, where there was pushback, but people actually got placed. What's happening in Newburgh, if you want to take that as an example?

Murad Awawdeh: I do think that there was some pushback from some elected officials, but then we saw support from other elected officials. Six county legislators from Orange County came out in support and said that they're a welcoming town, a welcoming city, and a welcoming county, our member leaders in the NYC organizations, for the many community voices heard, Worker Justice Center actually went and welcomed folks who were transferred there.

Currently, people are housed in a hotel in Orange County and they are receiving shelter, but they're also receiving case and care management in that area, in the actual hotel. They were moved, and since then, have continued to be there. The goal is to support people as much as you can, to get out of the shelter system. What we've been seeing, again, is that with single adult asylum seekers, and specifically single adult men, is that they're actually leaving the shelter system much quicker than other populations in the system, including other counterparts from their home countries.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a call from Orange County. This is-- I'm sorry, what's the name? Kathy, in Monroe, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kathy, thank you for calling in.

Kathy: Hi, Brian. I love your show, thank you so much for what you do. It's funny, I only moved up here from Staten Island about a year ago, so it's like an Orange County thing. I think it's really important that we house immigrants, but I think one of the problems, at least what I could see up here, is that there wasn't a lot of communication from the mayor. It's great that he's getting creative, he used Hungerford on Staten Island as a shelter, that he's finding an empty hotel and using it, being willing to pay.

They went full barrel, and a lot of people, as politicians do, they got their feathers ruffled a little bit. The more communication, the better. I don't think this is a reflection of how Orange County citizens necessarily feel, but that they immediately started saying, "This is our town, and we're going to take control." I hope that we can talk more, get more federal funding. Also, I wanted to share that there's a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killing, MASK, and there's one on Staten Island, but there's one that just opened in Brooklyn.

They had a whole Mother's Day celebration in East New York for any woman, low-income, immigrant, whatever their status. They gave out baskets, they had a big barbecue, it was really, really nice, so there are a lot of good people out there.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks, Kathy. Thanks for all of that, and thanks for shouting out another Mother's Day event. Murad, to the point that Kathy was making about communication by the mayor to the officials in the other towns and counties, you referred to this, too. I want to play two clips, one of Rockland County Executive, Ed Day, who among other things, had warned in writing, as I understand it, that he would grab Eric Adams by the throat, over his plan to house migrants north of New York City.

He said that on Fox News last week, I'm sure he meant it metaphorically, but he also said this--

Ed Day: The Mayor and the Mayor’s office were not giving any details. We had to figure out through investigation exactly where this was going to be. We figured out what hotel it was. We got information that told us how many people were coming. They consistently refused to tell us when they were coming. So, they left us no choice. We have no idea what’s happening. I resent the fact that somehow Mayor Adams thinks he has a hold on humanity, and treating people well. He’s doing these folks no favors.

Brian Lehrer: There was that. Specifically, "The mayor's office wasn't giving any details. We had to figure out through investigation exactly where this was going to be. We figured out what hotel it was, we got information that told us how many people were coming." Murad, fair complaint about lack of communication by the mayor?

Murad Awawdeh: Yes, I do think, initially, it's a fair complaint. Just to state facts, I'm not defending anyone here, I have a lot of criticisms about everyone involved in this moment. The mayor did, and the mayor's office did notify both Rockland and Orange County ahead of time, by informing them that this was happening. Yes, they should have shared more information, they should have been more collaborative, and they should have definitely coordinated. The assumption that they weren't aware is-- They were made aware.

The notion that Ed Day is also talking about, of like, "We had to do this massive investigation to figure things out," that's also not true, there's very few hotels in these areas. You could have went to the one of two hotels in the county, to figure it out. I do think that, regardless of what Ed Day is saying, the violent language of choking the mayor, or grabbing him by the throat, to just saying that folks who are being moved are unsafe, that's not necessary in this moment, either.

We should be treating people who are seeking refuge and safety with just a bit of humanity, and I think that that's the piece that's missing from this as well.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip of the mayor responding to what we just heard from the Rockland County Executive.

Mayor Eric Adams: It shows a lack of leadership. I thought he was the Texas governor, the way he acted. We're going to continue to do, we're going to challenge the legal challenges, and we're going to continue to pursue. You can't use the court to deny people to move around the state of New York.

Brian Lehrer: On some of the logistics that they're bringing up, I heard one official, I think this was in Orangeburg, which is not in Orange County, it's in Rockland County, say about the 340 men who are going to be housed in one hotel there, I can't even keep up with all the particular incidents, I think that one, the mayor backed off of, correct me if I'm wrong, at least for a moment, but the local officials said they don't know where those folks will shop, or how they will get food.

There's no kitchen facilities. There's not the local infrastructure to support that many people right away. Fair concern about that? I heard a Yonkers official say he doesn't know if the many new kids-- That, I guess, is family placement. If all the new kids will suddenly enroll in the Yonkers public schools, and nobody prepared them to be ready for an influx of students, potentially all at once. Can you address either of those concerns?

Murad Awawdeh: I think for Orangeburg, is actually in Rockland County. Some of those concerns are valid, but the fact of the matter is that the provider who's running the shelter system would be responsible for providing the meals, providing the service, helping folks get around, and transporting them. Those are valid concerns. If folks had an open venue to air those questions out, then the city and the provider would be like, "Hey, this is how this would happen. Great question. Let's figure out if there is an issue of concern."

Services in general, immigration services in general, across the city and state, are pretty stretched right now. We're still dealing with the impacts of COVID, four years of Trump administration sabotaging the immigration system and creating a massive backlog. There's a lot of other services outside of the basic services that are needed. Those are the ones that we've been advocating for an increase in resources for, from the city, from the state.

We were just successful in getting additional resources from the state a couple of weeks ago, when the budget was passed. The city is going through its own budgeting process right now. What we're seeing is that the mayor is actually cutting a lot more services that are needed by everyday folks. I think that for us-- Everyone has concerns. As long as we're able to answer them, I think that that is peace. As long as we're getting the right information out there and not using--

I just go back to the county executive saying that migrants are criminals, and that's just a little bit abhorrent for him, to even move to that spectrum, when these are folks who are literally trying to start new lives here.

Brian Lehrer: Schools in Yonkers, do you know about that, or how many new kids would enroll, if that's even the plan?

Murad Awawdeh: I think that a lot of these plans are being built in collaboration with local officials, at this point. I know that the state is involved, I know that the county exec is involved in Westchester, and definitely the mayor. I think that those questions are valid again, we just have to make sure that we are doing the best that we can to coordinate and collaborate, to actually make sure that that issue is moved forward, and in the right way.

Schools are ending pretty soon, and we want to make sure that if kids are transferred, which I have not heard of the family transfer yet, but I do know that they're looking at Yonkers as a potential location, but they would have to accommodate for the children's school needs. I believe the school session would be over relatively soon, so I'm not sure when the children will be moving there, and which children.

Also, are they currently enrolled in New York City schools, which I highly doubt that they'll move out of New York City and into another area, where they have to re-enroll the child. Yes, I think making sure that kids have appropriate schooling, that schools are prepared and have the resources they need, is also incredibly important in this moment. If we're moving families with children, we have to also account for that, as well.

Brian Lehrer: Acacia, in Greenpoint, you are on WNYC. Meet with Murad Awawdeh from the New York Immigration Coalition. Hi, Acacia.

Acacia: Hi. I am a member of a North Brooklyn Education Group. This morning, it has been popping off with news of the city choosing to have some migrants in the gym of some of our district schools. I have to say it's one of the most racist threads I have read in a while. It's shocking everyone, sounds like 45, like, "They're rapists and criminals. I'm sure some of them are great people."

It's really frustrating to see, because I feel like we are such a progressive district. Especially the nimbyism of it all, I feel like we should be asking how can we help. I also just want to know, how can I tell these people-- They're just people looking to better their lives. They're registered, they're waiting for their court date, they have people helping them. I don't know how to get through these people, and show them this is actually the right thing.

Brian Lehrer: That's a good point you make there, near the end. It's not even like people just snuck in and they're living in the shadows, they walked across the border, in many cases, and surrendered themselves to authorities, and said, "We're here to seek political asylum." Murad, talk to Acacia. What are you hearing? Is there nimbyist, racist pushback, even in the city?

Murad Awawdeh: I say this often, we're one of the richest cities and one of the richest states, and the richest country in the world. Over the past couple of years, our elected officials have been pushing austerity, and pushing scarcity. This is the actual rhetoric that she's referring to, is a clear direction of that. It's literally pointing to people, thinking, "Oh, my God, why here? Why me?" Thinking that they are being impacted, or something's being taken away from them, when that's not the case.

I think that using schools is not the appropriate location to be doing intake, because that's what it seems like it is. It's intake of individuals coming into the system. We already have the men's and adult Intake Center on the East Side of Manhattan. We have the family and women's intake in South Bronx. We have intake facilities, we should be using those intake facilities for the proper purposes, and not using schools, in this moment.

Kids are still in school, we're seeing community programming at some of the Police Athletic leagues, which are also [unintelligible 00:26:53] potentially being moved over. There's other locations, the city owns massive amounts of buildings in the city. Why are we using school buildings in this moment? We should be using that as a last effort. To the last point that she was pointing to-- Seeking asylum is people's legal right. You have the legal right to seek asylum.

People who are here have presented themselves to border officials have gone through that initial step of seeking asylum, and now are here, going through the process. It's a motion, you have to continue to keep going through it. Asylum does take some time to move forward. I think that asylum is folks' legal right. I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong way of immigration, because our immigration system is incredibly arcane and needs to be modernized.

You need to create pathways for people to be able to come into the US, but this population that we're referring to, if there was a right or wrong way, did it the right way.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Murad Awawdeh, from the New York Immigration Coalition. Dan, in Manhattan, who works as a translator, we see you. Giovanni, in Bed Stuy, who used to live in Newburgh, where some of this is taking place, and some of the conflict is. We see you. We're going to get to your calls. Murad, I'm also going to ask you a question after the break, that I asked the lawyer on the show, on Friday, about whether there's a constitutional issue here, of hotels anywhere in our region refusing to accept paying guests on the basis of national origin.

What? Doesn't that violate basic civil rights laws? We'll get into all of those things when we continue, in a minute. Brian Lehrer, on WNYC.

[music]

Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Few more minutes with Murad Awawdeh, Executive Director of the New York Immigration Coalition, which helps and advocates for immigrants in our area, as we talk about so much news over the weekend, pertaining to asylum seekers. There was definitely hysteria, I would say, and a lot of other media regarding the exploration of the federal government's Title 42 immigration restrictions, at midnight Thursday night, the massive wave of additional people that was being predicted did not materialize.

In fact, if you've heard the news reports this morning, the flow of human beings actually diminished by about half since Thursday night, Friday morning, but there are all these conflicts taking place in our area, between New York City and Rockland County, Orange County, even places within the city, over where people are going to be housed, at least temporarily, the implications for communities, and the implications for them, as human beings.

We can always ask ourselves, at the very least, to think about our own family background, so many of us in the New York area, and the conditions under which our own ancestors, whenever that was, came to New York City, and what our stance should be toward an influx of people seeking asylum from desperate situations around the Americas. Let me go to another call right away. Here's Dan, who's been waiting. Oh, we lost Dan.

All right. Let's try Giovanni, in Bed-Stuy, who has some connection to Newburgh, where, despite some local protests and some local support, people are now being housed, sent by the city. Giovanni, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Giovanni: Hi. Good morning. Like I said, I come from the Newburgh area. I wasn't born there, but I was raised there, and went to school. The distinction I think is interesting in Newburgh is that there is the City of Newburgh, and the town of Newburgh. I understand that this whole event is going on in Orange Lake, which is the residential community, or village, within the City. The city of Newburgh, it has a lot of immigrants. It's changed dramatically, because a lot of immigrants have been there.

The question that gets raised, even if I speak to some people that I know, from Newburgh, well, they're here illegally. Why should we put them in a hotel, for example, in the town of Newburgh? It's also true of what's happening in Orangeburg. I think your guest clarified that issue, which the government really hasn't, that these people are here illegally.

Brian Lehrer: Illegally.

Giovanni: They have said that they've gone through the process. They should not confuse the demise of people that are there illegally, or they're taking jobs away from people in their communities. Because as I understand it, is they are here waiting to be processed. If they have gone through the first step to the second step, they're not supposed to work.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Giovanni, thank you. Thank you for weighing in. We appreciate it. I want to go right to Trey, in Rockland County, who's also waiting. Trey, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Trey: Good morning. I'm sorry. I don't agree with any of this. It has nothing to do with racism, or anything like that. I'm a Black American. I want everybody to do well, but your mayor should have shut his mouth. That's my first problem. He got into that business of Texas. Texas said, "I will fix your A," and started shipping them here. Now we got to deal with it. That's number one. That's number one. You guys got a big buffet over there. We got a little sandwich over here.

When we talk about money, resources, space. Even in the big buffet, you're like, "Hey, we don't have enough food for y'all. We got plenty of people. We got a million people over here eating this buffet." You want to ship them over here, where we have a small sandwich. You want us to cut our sandwich in eighths or tenths, and hand out little pieces, because y'all don't have room over there. Well, we don't have room over here. Our resources are strapped already. Our roads, everything. We have traffic all day, every day.

I don't know if you know about the Tappan Zee. People trying to get over this way, because of the George Washington [unintelligible 00:33:51]. We got a lot going on. We can't handle it. It will be disastrous for us, as well as for them. They don't have vehicles. This is a vehicle area. The list goes on and on. It has nothing to do with race or anything. It has to do with resources and dealing with that. Please, can we be reasonable here? Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Trey. Murad, react to Trey.

Murad Awawdeh: Yes. Just off the top, I think that-- To Trey, what I'm hearing from him is a lack of resources, the scarcity that he's referring to. I think that New York just passed the $226 billion budget. Aid is supposed to be flowing across the state. I hear him, in his metaphor of-- New York City has a buffet and we got a small sandwich. I think that everyone in the state of New York should have their basic needs met. That's the bottom line. Just to answer his question directly-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Like the mayor, you're saying, let's look to the state. This shouldn't be just about New York City resources to resettle the immigrants, it shouldn't be about Rockland county's county-level resources, it should be from the $229 billion New York state budget, by and large, that was just passed.

Murad Awawdeh: I think that it needs to be from the state, it needs to be from the federal government. There's resources available at the federal government, the state just put an additional billion dollars in, to support people in this moment. The fact of the matter is that the mayor of New York City has made it clear the city is paying for their accommodations outside of the city. Definitely should be coordinating with local officials. Migrants don't have cars.

They've just gotten here, not too long ago, having gotten their licenses, so they wouldn't be able to get a car just yet. I do also want to talk a little bit about that frustration that Trey is mentioning around just feeling overwhelmed in this moment. We just came out of a really dark time with COVID. We've all been consistently hammered about things going bad, as if we had time to reflect on the bad dark era that we were just in.

That leads to this sentiment across the board, where we're told we don't have, when we do have. Then the best investment New York can make is in New Yorkers. That's what I think we have to continue to fight for, from our elected officials.

Brian Lehrer: Two quick questions before you go. One-- This constitutional question that I mentioned before the break. The mayor is booking hotel rooms that are available hotel rooms, in these northern counties. He's paying for them, the city of New York is paying for them. People are saying no. The Rockland County Executive Ed Day said they would be met by a police presence if 340 migrant men paid for by the city of New York showed up at this hotel, in the private sector, that was willing to rent the rooms to those guests.

One could say this is on the basis of national origin. If these were 340 people from New York City who had rented their rooms individually, they wouldn't be doing this. Maybe, hypothetically, if these were 340 people from Ukraine, they wouldn't be doing this. You can't prove that, but these are people from these groups of asylum seekers who are coming from Venezuela and elsewhere, we're not renting to them. Could you see a constitutional lawsuit on the basis of equal protection under the law?

You can't discriminate a hotel, an individual, the state cannot direct a hotel in the private sector that's willing to rent rooms to guests, public accommodation, from saying, "We're not going to treat you," on the basis of national origin.

Murad Awawdeh: In the state of New York, that's definitely considered discrimination. I think NYCLU has already filed a lawsuit against that. I think that we're in a tricky area. I think had we done things slightly different, we'd probably still end up in the same place with these two counties, to be transparent with you. I do think that there are other places in the state of New York that have really seen the richness of immigrant and refugee communities, from Buffalo to the capital region, down the Hudson Valley.

The fellow from Rockland, or the caller before him, was talking about-- The City of Newburgh is now a booming city of immigrants. What we do know is that here in the state of New York, the immigrant community is contributing over $62 billion in tax revenue. We are literally part of the cultural and societal fabric of everything New York. In this moment, for us to continue to see these moments arise, where our community is still being discriminated against, and still being vilified in a state like New York, is absolutely incredibly horrible.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, to be fair to them, they would say, on the other side of this racial or national origin discrimination question, that they have rules about hotels, I think, to not turn everything into Airbnbs that are going to take away from the available housing stock when there's an affordable housing crisis all over our region. They have rules already, against long-term stays, and these stays would be months long. That's at least what they're hanging it on. That would probably be a defense in court, if it were to go to court.

Last question-- What do you think is happening on the national level, that's surprising everybody? There was supposed to be this massive additional influx of people seeking asylum after Title 42 expired, Friday morning. Instead, the number of people crossing so far, at least since then, has been half what it was before, not more. What happened?

Murad Awawdeh: Title 42, that was in place, that got lifted on May 11th, was a public health policy, and has never been used at a port of entry until Donald Trump and his administration put it there. Pretty much created a list of countries that they added into Title 42, that were absolutely not allowed into the country at the southern border. Then President Biden expanded that this past year, to include Venezuelans and other communities, that were coming into the US as well.

What took over for Title 42 was Title 8, which is an even worse policy. It empowers those at the southern border to be jury and judge on people's cases and actually remove them, and deport them in an expedited way. Title 8, which is something we were warning ahead of time, where everyone was like, "We're going to have this massive increase." It's not. That's what we were saying at the time.

We were telling people there's no way of predicting what is going to happen, because if Title 8 is actually implemented, it's going to harm people and actually ban asylum. There's a number of new rules that came into effect as well, where you have to seek asylum in a different country before trying to seek asylum in the US. Then there's processing centers in other countries, like Guatemala, and, I think, Columbia, for folks to see if there's other avenues.

If they have a family-based petition, where their family is sponsoring them to come into the US, and they haven't gone through the interview process, or the process, they can get paroled in. This is what we've been trying to warn people [inaudible 00:42:40].

Brian Lehrer: Which is to say, in brief, that you don't support the new Biden policy that replaces Title 42,-

Murad Awawdeh: Oh, absolutely not.

Brian Lehrer: -but it's working.

Murad Awawdeh: I don't support it in any regard. I don't support gutting asylum, which is what this policy does. It empowers Border Patrol to actually expedite individuals' removals when Border Patrol is not capable of actually adjudicating asylum cases. That should not be the case.

Brian Lehrer: Murad Awawdeh, executive director of the New York Immigration Coalition, thanks for joining us, we always appreciate when you come on.

Murad Awawdeh: Thanks for having me.

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.