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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Don't feel bad if you aren't getting 10,000 steps a day. For years now, research has called into question the 10,000-a-day step goal. When Atlantic staff writer Amanda Mull, wrote about this way back in 2019, she began her article this way, "In America, the conventional wisdom of how to live healthily is full of axioms that long ago shed their origins. Drink eight glasses of water a day, get eight hours of sleep, tick these boxes, and you're a healthy person," she wrote.

"The reality, of course, is a lot more nuanced." She also wrote, "Human health is far too complicated to be reduced to a long chain of numerical imperatives." Now, I'm going to admit that this segment came up by accident, because I was reading in, I like to read in on some of the latest health research and health news, and I came upon Amanda's article, and I didn't even realize at first that it was five years old.

I read through it, and I thought, this is still really relevant to talk about. Where did this 10,000 steps number come from? Why despite years of research, indicating a more complicated picture, does the 10,000-daily step goal remain a target for so many? We will ask Amanda Mull, staff writer at The Atlantic, who joins me now. Hey, Amanda, welcome back to WNYC.

Amanda Mull: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: For listeners, we can take a few phone calls. Do you go out of your way to get 10,000 steps a day? Does it make a difference one way or another for you, or how do you try to get movement? Because nobody's saying movement isn't important. Movement is vitally important to longevity, and to quality of life as well. Much research has shown, it just doesn't have to be in that rigid way of 10,000 steps, but if you've been doing it, how long have you kept up your streak? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Amanda, do you have a daily step count call?

Amanda Mull: I don't. I still am beholden a little bit psychologically to this idea that you need 10,000 steps, partly, because my iPhone tracks me to 10,000 as a preset. I usually don't hit it, but I try to do as much as I can.

Brian Lehrer: Where did the 10,000 number come from based on your research into the origins of this?

Amanda Mull: Well, this article came about in 2019, because I came across this study from an epidemiologist at Harvard who had looked into this herself. She saw this recommendation all over the place, and she was really unable to place why it had become such an axiom. She looked into all of the history, and what she found was that in 1965, a Japanese company selling pedometers had come up with a name for this particular product they wanted to market that meant in English, the 10,000-step meter.

They chose that, because the Japanese character for 10,000 looks a little bit like a little stick figure walking. It served a marketing purpose, and ever since then, I think a lot of people have just assumed over the years that this is related to science in some way, when in actuality, it's just a cute little figure.

Brian Lehrer: They've sold a lot of pedometers between then and now, huh?

Amanda Mull: Yes. From the days of the more analog pedometers in 1965 to Fitbits, Apple watches, all kinds of things we have now are capable of tracking people with decent accuracy. You're probably carrying around at least one of them at any given time during the day.

Brian Lehrer: It's such a nice round number five digits, lots of zeros, attainable, but moderately challenging. I get it. Maybe we should just give it up for the marketing departments at the pedometer and smartwatch manufacturers, right? Just give them all the praise they deserve for zeroing in on those zeros as effectively as they have. If 10,000 is arbitrary, is there a step count goal that science actually backs up?

Amanda Mull: Well, it's a little bit hard to determine, because different people at different stages of life need different types of activity, and different levels of activity. Professor Lee, who I spoke to about this original study, studies mostly older people. She did a pretty large study with older women in particular that found that there was benefits to increasing your step count in this cohort of people up to about 7,500 steps a day.

Then, after that, those measurable benefits leveled off. It's impossible to say whether or not the increased step count was causative, or if people who are healthier just tend to walk more as a result of being healthier. That is what she found. She found that even as little as like 4,400 steps per day, which is about two miles total for the average stride, had significant health benefits.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's I think, one of the most important parts of your article. which is to say that, it can do more harm than good, if 10,000 seems so large that it's an unattainable number, it can discourage people from doing less movement than that, and if that's the movement they can do. Even though the science seems to indicate, you get to 7,500 steps, which is, that's still three-quarters of the same thing, so you still have to move for the ideal, but it's a lot less than 10,000. That's one of the downsides of 10,000, right?

It can discourage people because they think, "Well, if I can't get to 10,000, what's the point of exercising? What's the point of walking?"

Amanda Mull: Absolutely. The way that people think about these arbitrary health goals tends to be very black and white, which means that a goal set too high can be pretty discouraging for people. What the research, it reinforces over and over again for all types of movement, not just walking, swimming, biking, whatever, is that doing a little bit more for most people, is going to have measurable health benefits. It is going to be good for you physically, and psychologically.

If you're a person who doesn't walk much at all right now, even getting in about 2,000 steps, 3,000 steps, a little bit of biking, a little bit of swimming at the local Y, whatever you can do is probably going to have measurable benefits for you, even if 10,000 is a pipe dream,

Brian Lehrer: Right. Most Americans don't even live in walkable areas. A lot of people don't. If they live in places that don't have a well-developed sidewalk culture, let's say, if the steps are outside though, a lot of the steps are meant to be inside, right? That's a lot of what we hear these days too, is if you're working at a desk job, let's say, get up for five minutes every hour or every half hour, and just walk around a little bit indoors.

Amanda Mull: Right. There are a lot of structural obstacles for people in getting this level of movement that would be meaningfully beneficial to their health. A lot of Americans, as you said, don't live in places with lots of sidewalks. If you live near a busy road, it can be very dangerous to walk outside. If you have disabilities that prevent you from walking on uneven sidewalks, things like that.

There's a lot of things that can get in the way, or just having a sedentary desk job that requires you to be chained to a laptop all day. You get a sense of inertia. You forget to move, you get tied up in your schedule. Anything you can do to move a little bit more than you already are, is a good idea. Even if you don't reach your goal every single day, don't let that stop you.

Brian Lehrer: Max in Brooklyn has a brand new success story along these lines for us, I think. Max, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Max: Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me on. It's crazy timing. I used the Apple Health app to track my steps. Just yesterday after going on a run, it was a beautiful day. I think I did 20,000 steps yesterday, and that pushed my average for the year just above 10,000 for the first time. Last year, I had about 9,300, 9,400 was my average, but I figured my phone isn't always in my pocket, so I count 400 or 500, I counted that as 10,000. Actually, having the 10,000 does feel a little different. A little better. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Cool. Do you think having that goal, whether or not the goal at exactly 10,000 is really scientifically backed up, has motivated you to exercise more regularly?

Max: Definitely. It's funny because it doesn't count all steps the same, at least, the one I have. I just go to the office, get on the subway, run a few errands, and I'm almost at 10,000. Then, sometimes I go on a four-mile run, and it still says it's only like 6,000 or 7,000. I know it's not perfectly scientifically accurate, but having the number in mind does help.

Brian Lehrer: Max, congratulations. Keep it up, and thanks a lot. Let's see. Ralph in Manhattan on this track as well. Ralph, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Ralph: Thank you for taking my call. Similar story to Max. I'm a runner as well. Also, and yesterday I did 20,000 steps.

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Ralph: I've had a Fitbit since 2017. I don't think I've taken it off one day, and every day it's my goal to do at least 10,000. At least 10,000, or even do more.

Brian Lehrer: How do you get to your 10,000 usually? What's the bulk of it?

Ralph: I walk just about everywhere. I work in Manhattan, I live in Westchester. I work in Manhattan, I walk all over the city. I just walk. Actually, I walk further than my office and come back to it just to get steps in. At night, I do the same thing. It's like a mania with me right now, just to keep it up. Even on the days I'm working from home, I get up the same time, and go and walk. In the weekends, I try to run, and do other things [unintelligible 00:10:42] just to get--[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: This is what just they call a positive addiction, right?

Ralph: I hope so. I mean, it's-- I enjoy it. I don't know what else I could tell you.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's good.

Ralph: One other thing, I just wanted-- Brian, I listened to the show every day. I'm first-time long-time, and you make my morning so terrific.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Ralph: Sometimes I listen to the show in the afternoon.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's really gratifying to hear. Thank you very much.

Ralph: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: If we can be the background that motivates a little walking, that's great too. One listener just wrote, "Inspired by this conversation. I just stepped away from my desk for a morning stretch." Amanda, you note a few people are asking, it seems so basic, what distance is 10,000 steps equivalent to?

Amanda Mull: That's a great question. Part of the issue with this arbitrary number, is that a step is not like a standardized unit of measurement. Usually, the step as these technology companies think of it, is about 5 miles for 10,000 steps. It makes it hard to imagine how long that is, but when you get up to 10,000, it is about 5 miles total.

Brian Lehrer: About five miles of walking. Are all steps created equal? Does science tell us anything about 1,000 steps in a strenuous run, getting your cardio in for real, versus 1,000 steps between your bedroom in your living room, you know what I mean?

Amanda Mull: Well, the steps themselves are pretty much equal, as far as the physical movement that you're getting in your orthopedic system. Those steps are going to be different for your cardiac system, though. If you can get yourself up to being a little bit out of breath to an elevated heart rate, that is going to provide even more overall health benefits, however, you do it. If it's steps, if it's bicycling, if it's swimming, whatever makes you happy.

Brian Lehrer: Technically, when you're bicycling, you're not taking any steps. Do they allow you, whoever they are, do they allow you to convert pedal strokes to steps?

Amanda Mull: They don't allow that, but in the Apple system, at least, what I've noticed is that, there are separate goals for strenuous physical activity above and beyond steps. Your Apple Watch, in particular, can sense that you are exerting yourself, and it will give you a different goal that you can set for yourself, or it will give you a default one for how much time during the day you want to be engaged in strenuous physical activity, but if it's not steps, it's not going to measure it towards your step goal.

Brian Lehrer: Mary in Brooklyn is going to put a different kind of humanity, I think, on this conversation. Mary, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Mary: Hi, there. Sorry. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can.

Mary: Hi, Brian. Wow, I can't believe I got on. Basically, I work a desk job, and I live in New York City, so I walk a lot, obviously, but I am just torn because I fairly recently read a book called Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. I'm really like anti-wearable technology. I don't want to track everything that I do all day long, it seems to take away from the value of movements and exercise.

Brian Lehrer: There's a "but" in here right? But you try to walk--

Mary: I feel compelled by the rest of the fitness challenges, and everything else. I did go for a run yesterday, and I did map it on MapMyRun, but I'm having an internal struggle between wanting to do something one way with the rest of the world, and then wanting to leave my phone at home. I can't meet a goal if I leave my phone at home. My goal is less screen time. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Yes, right. You have a goal that you're trying to retain, but if you measure it too precisely, then you're going against the digital minimalism that you think humanizes your life. I guess, estimate, right? Amanda? Estimate. Mary should estimate.

Amanda Mull: Right. I agree with her that there are definite benefits to other parts of our health for unplugging from our phones a little bit, and not trying to quantify ourselves so minutely. I think that, that doesn't have to be something that is in conflict with wanting to get enough physical activity. I think that doing what makes you feel good, and doing it for the period of time that feels good to you in the moment, is often more than enough to get us to where we want to be health-wise. The challenge is separating ourselves from our phones and our laptops, and the things around us, and actually going out and doing those things, whether or not we track them.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda Mull, staff writer at The Atlantic. Good conversation. Thank you very much.

Amanda Mull: Thank you so much for having me.

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