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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Brigid Bergin, WNYC and Gothamist reporter, filling in for Brian. He will be back Monday.

When Republicans took control of the House of Representatives after the last election, there was a lot of soul-searching among Democrats in deep blue New York. On this show, there have been conversations with people analyzing why the State Democratic Party is flailing, including a response from State Democratic Party Chair, Jay Jacobs, strongly disputing that.

The other very important part of that equation is how New York Republicans have retooled their image, their strategies, and their leadership to appeal to a new constituency of voters.

In a new feature for POLITICO Magazine, writer and reporter, David Freedlander, says the through line for all of it is Donald Trump. The headline of his article is How a Staunchly Blue State Let MAGA Seep In. He's also the author of The AOC Generation: How Millennials are Seizing Power and Rewriting the Rules of American Politics. David, welcome back to WNYC. It's great to have you here.

David Freedlander: Great to be here.

Brigid Bergin: You cover a lot of ground in this piece. Looking at what it means to be a Republican in New York now, you went to a nightclub in Manhattan, to the suburbs of New York City to talk with people behind the changing face of New York's Republican party. Before we start digging into what it means to be a Republican now, can you talk a little bit about what it had meant to be a New York Republican, the so-called Rockefeller Republican?

David Freedlander: Oh, sure. There's a long history of Republicans winning election in New York City and New York State. George Pataki was a three-term governor. Obviously, we had Rudy Giuliani as mayor, Mike Bloomberg as mayor. For the most part, these kinds of Republicans were folks who could really win in the suburbs. They were fiscally conservative, but socially liberal, and they had a milk toast personality. They weren't bombastic. They weren't going to embarrass you. That was their strength, I think, in the way they brought to politics, was that they put the focus on Democrats, and were just going to manage the state or the city in a very calm way.

Brigid Bergin: Then your piece starts with the New York Young Republicans Club, which also has had a shift in image and certainly organizational leadership. Why does that help explain New York Republicans today?

David Freedlander: Well, a few years ago, for example, I think, even as late as 2015, the New York Young Republicans Club was really a place for Republicans who were a little embarrassed about being Republicans as they supported Mitt Romney, or Jeb Bush, or whomever to get together and kvetch or talk about what it was like to be a Manhattan Republican.

Then after Trump won, the party was taken over by some Trump acolytes. They're Trumpy in their approach to politics. They're far right for one thing, they're nationalist and populist, and they have this eye for a spectacle. They like to throw big parties, and they like to offend liberal Democrats in those parties.

Brigid Bergin: You have to share some of the details from that event you went to in Little Italy. It was an event featuring Roger Stone, an associate of the former president, and there was a lot of flair, I think, to be fair.

David Freedlander: There were burlesque dancers, Roger Stone was mixing martinis, a recipe he said came from Richard Nixon. There was smoking inside, which you haven't seen in a bar club in New York in some time, and a lot of talking about smoking inside. They were passing out-- The hors d'oeuvres had either Russian or Ukrainian flags, and the idea was that you were going to choose one and choose a side in the Russian-Ukrainian conflict. It was just all sorts of ou·​tré stuff designed to offend.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, we want to know how you're experiencing the change in New York's Republican Party. Were you someone who called yourself a Rockefeller Republican? Do you feel like the current New York Republican party represents you, or have your politics evolved? Are you someone who used to be a Democrat that recently changed to the Republican Party? What prompted the switch? Do you maybe live in a community that used to be solidly blue and is now turning shades of purple or maybe bright red?

What shifts are you seeing, whether it's your school board election or a city council race? We want to hear from you. Call us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number.

Before we move from the Young Republicans, we should talk for a moment. The organization is now led by, as you said, a Trump acolyte Gavin Wax. He uses rhetoric that is very reminiscent of the former president. The group was one of the earliest endorsers of former President Trump for his 2024 reelection campaign. We have been talking this morning about the latest indictment, a federal indictment facing the former president.

Given your time you've spent with some of these folks, how do you think they're going to react to that? What do you think that's going to mean for supporters here in New York?

David Freedlander: Oh, I think it'll bind them closer to Trump. Gavin Wax and the New York Young Republicans, they organized the protest outside of the Federal courthouse or the courthouse here in Manhattan when Trump was previously indicted. To them, I think they see it as, oh, just a big conspiracy against the former president and he's the only one that can defend us against what they would call the woke mob.

Brigid Bergin: The Times wrote this morning that this latest indictment puts a whole lot of pressure on the Republican presidential field. It puts them in this position of deciding whether they're going to rally behind the president. How much of a political headache do you think these indictments will be for Republicans across the country and here in New York?

David Freedlander: Well, in the short term obviously there seemed to be this rallying around the President whenever he faces these kinds of charges. As we get further away from it, as more bad news comes out, I think you have to wonder if people will just tire of it.

What I also think is interesting is, here you have the polling front-runner facing really serious charges, really serious accusations of wrongdoing, if you don't have his competitors going against him, and making that plane, and calling attention to it, you have to wonder how seriously they're really running for president against him.

Brigid Bergin: When we think about Trump here in New York, his track record in terms of electoral victories is not good. Here in New York City, the only borough he won was Staten Island in the presidential elections, but Republicans have been improving their outcomes in other recent contests. We saw gubernatorial candidate Lee Zeldin outperform expectations in the governor's race. Of course, those four house seats. What do you think Democrats don't understand about why they're losing voters in those races and more of these local contests?

David Freedlander: Well, it seems as if what's happening is that Trump is really unpopular in New York. He's also a familiar figure here in a lot of ways and in some cases, this is where Trumpism began. There's a real Long Island outer borough vibe, I think, to a lot of Trumpism. If you recall back in 2018, it really looked like, I wouldn't even say permanent minority status for the Republican Party, but they looked like they were going to be wiped out. There were just going to be no Republicans left in New York City or its suburbs.

After Trump left office, you started to see Trumpism take hold. If you recall, 2021, the elections, Eric Adams won the mayoralty here in New York City, but Republicans won everywhere else in 2021. It was a devastating night for Democrats. Then 2022, you thought that Democrats would have figured it out because this Republican wave had washed ashore, but then they repeated it again in 2022. I don't think Democrats have quite wrestled with the fact that there's something that is appealing about Trumpism to a lot of voters.

Brigid Bergin: Another thing that was so interesting as you were unpacking this through-line of how Trumpism, we're not just talking about the house races, we're not just talking about state legislative or even local races, city council, school board, but the ideas that Democrats have pointed to as being the reasons whether it's bail reform, or crime, that there are some legitimate arguments for why that actually was not the case, that that wasn't the cause, that there was this other thing, Trumpism. Can you talk a little bit about that idea?

David Freedlander: Yes, sure. I think the simple explanation that Democrats had for why the last couple of years were so bad for them was crime. Well, crime is up, and so people are pegging that on us, but crime is up everywhere. Crime is up in Detroit, but you didn't see this happen in Michigan. Crime is up in Oakland and Los Angeles, but you didn't see this Republican wave happen in California. Then I think you have to ask yourself, well if it's not crime, then what is it? I think part of it has to do with the fact that the Democratic Party coalition is changing in subtle ways. It's increasingly becoming a party of well-educated, well-paid college graduates. That is not a large portion of the voting population. They also have concerns, I think, that aren't matched by much of the electorate and Republicans really use that I think to their advantage the last couple of years.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to the phones. We have David in Freehold, New Jersey. David, welcome to WNYC.

David: Hi, good morning. How are you doing?

David: Great.

Brigid Bergin: Doing great.

David: Am I on?

Brigid Bergin: You're on.

David: Okay. I don't know how to say this politely, but it seems like you're living in such a bubble. You think that everything Republicans do is to offend, to offend, to offend but what Democrats and Liberals do is not to offend. You think this entire transgender thing is to be inclusive and not just to knock it over the head of Republicans. You think when they bring drag queen nuns into Dodger Stadium, it's not to offend, it's to be inclusive. It's ridiculous. Get out of your bubble. Get out of New York City a little bit.

Brigid Bergin: David, thanks for your call and for your perspective. David Freedlander, who I'm speaking to, I imagine in reporting this story that might have been some of the perspectives that you were encountering from folks who feel like, as you were saying, the Democratic Party maybe isn't listening to some of the issues that matter to them, whether it is some of these culture issues that have been certainly a tool or perhaps a weapon in some of these fights, but also maybe some of the economic issues that people are dealing with in a way that they feel like people aren't listening to.

David Freedlander: Yes, think that's right. David in Freehold, I think in a funny way, put his finger on it. I don't know what he is quite talking about, nuns at a drag queen event at Dodger Stadium. If that happened, I would imagine it wouldn't play particularly well with swing voters, and if Democrats--

Brigid Bergin: Just to be clear, I think what his reference is to is this group called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. They're going to be at Dodgers Stadium's Pride Night. They've been around since the 1970s. They've done a lot of good work for HIV patients, et cetera. They are a group that some Catholic voters find offensive for some reasons that probably are fairly obvious. In that case, I think I've interrupted your answer, which is to say these cultural issues are something that have been really a tool in this debate.

David Freedlander: Sure, and they're the thing that Republican voters are happy to highlight and point to and I think make Democratic politicians defend in a way. I think that the bubble that the caller was referring to I think is precisely the point where you have a situation where, not entirely true, but where someone's the richest swaths of New York City and New York State are also the most liberal. That ends up offending the broad swath of voters in certain ways.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to another caller. Let's try Raphael in Queens. Raphael, welcome to WNYC.

Raphael: A long-time listener of Brian. Thank you very much for taking my phone call. As a Republican, I have a problem with your last caller. I don't know why the Republicans are after the cultural issue when we were talking about taxes, conservatism, having a country that is great. The whole subject has been changed. Your side and blame your side, allowing the last callers using cultural issue as a Republican Party, I don't need to cut up my bubbles. The drags have been in this country since 1910. The gay has been in this country God knows from the time of Moses when he came from Mount Sinai and the Ten Commandments and in all the books, they said, "You should not sodomize." You allowing these people calling as my party.

The only reason Republican won DC the last things, and we got disgrace centers because you allow them to use crime. There is no crime in Buffalo. Yes, there was a crime. 10 Black people were shot. I asked my Republican friends, I raised money for Republican Party. I'm coming from the Republican of Rockefellers. My family supported him. I have a issue with the liberal side that doesn't shut the people like the last caller. We're not in bubbles. You allow them to use this cultural issue and making Republican Party look bad. We're being destroyed from inside.

Brigid Bergin: Raphael, thank you so much.

Raphael: I want to share with you we are not like that.

Brigid Bergin: We appreciate your call. That's why this show takes callers from people with lots of perspectives, including yours. We are really grateful that you called in and offered a different perspective as another Republican voter here in the city. Please call us again and please keep listening. We really appreciate it.

I want to build on what Raphael was saying there, David, because I think what you did in looking at some of the other races that have been impacted by Trumpism was really interesting. You looked at some of the recent school board races in Long Island that helped underscore this shift among some of the formerly Democratic voters who maybe don't identify with the current Democratic Party and their shift to Republican voters.

You told us the story of- I'm not sure if I'm going to get the last name correctly, but Barbara Abboud. What was the lesson tell us a little bit of that story and the lesson that you drew from it.

David Freedlander: I think in some ways, we're all dealing with post-Trump, post-COVID fallout in a way. I think that's really her story. I think it was a lot of people were frightened and confused by what happened in 2020 with the lockdowns, with schools being closed, and they were looking for outlets and figuring out what was going on. Of course, they were home with their kids who were, whatever, Zoom schooling or whatever it was. They got involved in that way. Then that became this crusade.

There was this feeling that because I think Trump was telling people that even though he was president, the government is lying to you, that they started seeing the lies everywhere. Like, "Oh, well the vaccine isn't safe. What are these lockdowns all about? What are my kids being taught at school?" They brought that energy where they could, which was right where they lived.

We saw all groups forming then, Moms for Liberty and all these other things. They would shout down long-time board of education members and everything else. I think that energy ended up just blossoming here in New York. We still haven't gotten a handle on it in a way.

Brigid Bergin: I think we heard it in how parents talk or how people in some of these groups talk about the idea of the role of parents in schools, parents' rights. Just to show some of the evolution of that rhetoric, I want to play a couple pieces of tape. One is from former Republican candidate, Joe Lhota, when he was asked a question about this back in 2013 when he was running for mayor. Then right after that, we'll play a clip from a commercial that Lee Zeldin used during his gubernatorial race. I will note this is about a minute of tape, and the piece of tape from Lee Zeldin was from a commercial. There's some music to underscore it's a little it has a different feel. Also, the language is different and I think it gets to some of the points that you made in your story.

Joe Lhota: We are one city, but we need to make sure that there are communities. As part of that community as well as making sure the parents are involved in the education process. Part of what's going on with mayoral control, which I am a huge supporter of, is that some parents believe that their input isn't there anymore. I want to make sure that their input is there. Parents are an integral part of the education process. At the same time, I want to work with the teachers.

Lee Zeldin: I'm highly suspicious of those in government who say that parents shouldn't be more involved in their kids' education. Try to talk these great parents from showing up to be involved in curriculum, being involved in their kids' education because you know what, a parent has a fundamental right, control the upbringing of their child, and they do not relinquish that right because they send their kids off to school. We're going to take back our country and our state. Let's fight for our kids and their future. Losing is not an option.

Brigid Bergin: David, you're here. There are some ideas that are similar, but wow, the rhetoric is so much more Trumpy in that Zeldin. Any reaction?

David Freedlander: That's extraordinary two bits of tape. Trump, he made everything, every political fight, the Super Bowl. Everything was on a high boil all the time. Part of what Trumpism brought was to assume that your political opponents aren't just your political opponents, but that they're operating in bad faith, that they're conspiring against you. That is the energy.

Those of us who remember Lee Zeldin back when he was a congressman or even a state senator, he was not like that. He was a fairly regular New York Republican who to dealt with local issues, but something clearly has happened. We're talking in the way that he talks in that ad. He's doing it because it seems to work. It gets people fired up. It rallies his side to him.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go back to the phones. We have some callers who I think are wrestling with this idea of where the party is now. Let's go to Ernie in Glen Cove. Ernie, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for calling.

Ernie: Thank you so much for taking my call. I live in Glen Cove in Nassau County Long Island which is a bit of an anomaly for the tri-state area over here we are. Nassau has consistently been basically a Republican county and when I talk to a lot of my friends- and I am not ashamed to say I voted for Donald Trump twice. I think the way he ran the economy and ran the country, I think that things that he stood for were right in line with what I wanted. However, his behavior on January 6 has really tainted many of us.

I know a lot of friends that I talk to and I feel the same way. As much as I think our country was in a much better place when he was president, I have big problems voting for someone who does not respect the peaceful transition of power. Many of us are feeling that way. The biggest fear that we have is if he doesn't get the nomination, he goes in as a third party like Ross Perot in ’92 and basically hands the election over to Biden. That is my greatest fear.

You hear a lot on the radio and on the TV. Very often as I talk to people, friends, family, people on the street, I sometimes feel that I get a little bit more accurate assessment of where we're at.

Brigid Bergin: Ernie, thank you so much for that perspective, that's really helpful. I want to go to Phil also in Nassau County. Phil, welcome to WNYC.

Phil: Hi, thanks for having me on. I'm a big fan of the show.

Brigid Bergin: You have a perspective on the Rockefeller Republican question?

Phil: Well, yes. I was a registered Republican back in 1978. I'm a baby boomer now, as were my parents. Ever since things progressed with the Trump era, it just seems that there is no room for my kind of thoughts and the Rockefeller Republicans of years ago. Up and down the east coast here, that perspective is completely gone. It's been completely wiped out by Trumpism and I've lost friends over it, I've had issues with family members to the point where we can't even talk politics anymore. A lot of us, myself included and my wife, we just went out and changed our registration.

We thought the best thing to do was since we have no home and the Republican Party is not even noticeable from what it was. Ronald Reagan couldn't even be a Republican nominee in today's Republican Party, and it just felt better to be an independent. I think a lot of Republicans are going that way. The only problem with that is we're stuck and we can't vote in the primaries then. It’s Rockefeller Republicans no more.

Brigid Bergin: Phil, thank you so much for that. David, I want to give you a chance. A couple of different interesting perspectives both from out there on Long Island. Your thoughts on both Ernie's comments about his fear that Trump as a third party could be the spoiler and then Phil, the voice of someone who has left the Republican Party but certainly hasn't become a Democrat.

David Freedlander: Well, on the first question, Trump is a third party or spoiler really, in any capacity. I think that should be a real live concern for Republicans. He's certainly not one to go quietly. He's a polling leader right now but should that change, it's very hard to imagine him coming in second place and endorsing the eventual nominee.

As for the Rockefeller Republican thing, it's very true. You think of the home base of Rockefeller Republicanism was the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Now, that's solidly democratic now. Where you see Republicans doing well in New York City are these immigrant communities. They do fairly well in Chinatown, they're starting to make inroads in Outer Queens, Outer Brooklyn, parts of the Bronx, and places like that.

Brigid Bergin: David, because of some of the inroads that Republicans made, we have talked many times about how those four house seats flipped essentially giving Republicans control of the house but Republican control of the house has been fairly chaotic for much of the nation from the speaker fight, to the debt ceiling, to some of these investigations into federal officials almost voting to hold FBI Chief Chris Wray in contempt. Certainly, New York Republicans have to contend with the ongoing saga of Congressman George Santos.

Do you think any of those things are going to hurt GOP chances to hold on to control in some of those New York seats when we look at 2024?

David Freedlander: Oh, yes. I’m sure it's not great for them and they wish it wasn't happening. If you see the New York, Republicans in Congress, they're some of the most fervent calls for Santos to resign and they seem to keep their head down whenever there's these controversies. There were some Mike Lawler, Hudson Valley Republican, he actually was with Joe Biden when he was in his district. Yes, I think that this is all of the chaos that you see sown by some of these far-right Republicans in Washington is certainly not helpful for the larger cause.

Brigid Bergin: We know that Democrats are planning to invest millions into winning the seats back. Is there anything you learned from speaking to voters about what you think they need to hear or what just won't work in some of those campaigns?

David Freedlander: I think it's a tough spot because this part of the Democratic coalition that is highly educated, wealthy, and very liberal, they seem to sort of not let the party go after these Trump-interested voters that the party will need to win back these house seats. It's a tough spot all around, I think.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to a couple more callers. Let's go to Sal in Queens. Sal, welcome to WNYC.

Sal: Yes, good morning. I guess this is a bizarre perspective. I think of myself as a socially liberal libertarian, and I'm listening here to Rockefeller Republicanism. There are always trade-offs in life and however far the Republican Party has strayed, when I see the abject catastrophes that have been wrought by actual progressive policies, I don't even recognize the Democrat Party. I guess my observation is whatever problems the Republicans have perceptually are nothing in comparison to what's taking place, practically.

Brigid Bergin: Sal, when you say that, what are the policies that you're talking about?

Sal: A refusal to respect human nature. You look at what we are permitting. In San Francisco, for example, how can one observe that and not be horrified and recognize, gosh, maybe we're doing something wrong here?

Brigid Bergin: Sal, thanks so much for your call. I'm not exactly sure what the San Francisco reference was to. David, I think, if we're talking about if it's a reference to issues of crime or if it's an issue to policies related to homelessness he didn't specify so it's difficult for us to respond to more than that. Did you when you were talking to voters and talking to candidates and recording this piece hear more of that idea of a disconnect?

I thought on top of what you were hearing from voters, you heard about the way voters get their information and the media ecosystems that people live in. Can you talk about how that contributes to what we see as this, as you put it, the magnification of New York's Republican Party?

David Freedlander: Well, when you talk to Democratic political operatives, consultants, professional politicians, one thing they say that makes New York so difficult for them is that here in New York, we have The New York Post which is not a thing that exists in any other city or state in the country. The post has this unique ability to drive an agenda in the political conversation. They’ll run the same story on the same topic over and over and over again until they really get results on it.

I forget the statistic that’s in the story but it's something like in the last three weeks prior to the gubernatorial election, there were something like 17 post covers devoted to crime, and I think as sophisticated news consumers, we see that and roll our eyes and think like, "Oh, well, it obviously has an agenda," but most voters don't see it that way. They're just taking it at face value I think.

Brigid Bergin: In our final few moments here David, based on your reporting, what are some of the other seats you're going to be watching in 2024? How much redder do you think New York can actually get?

David Freedlander: I think we just don't quite know. Republicans are really making inroads in communities of color. They're making inroads in working-class communities. They're making inroads in immigrant communities. If they're able to do that, it's tough for them. I don't want to overstate it. I think they have 7 or so of the 51 seats on the city council, but it just takes a couple of more for this just to get a lot harder for the Democratic Party.

Brigid Bergin: We're going to have to leave it there for now. I've been speaking with writer and reporter David Friedlander about his new piece in POLITICO Magazine, How a Staunchly Blue State Let MAGA Seep In. He's also the author of The AOC Generation: How Millennials Are Seizing Power and Rewriting the Rules of American Politics. Dave, thanks so much for joining us.

David Freedlander: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

 

 

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