Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're going to talk now about ways to and ways not to convince people who haven't yet decided to get the COVID vaccine to get them. As you might have heard in President Biden's speeches and various appearances over the last week, he has set a goal to fully vaccinate 160 million US adults, by the 4th of July. This is partly new.

Yesterday, he said his goal now is to get at least one vaccine dose into 70% of the nation's adult population by that time, that would be really good. 70% is what a lot of the experts say is needed for herd immunity, where there just aren't enough people for the virus to keep getting passed around that it starts to die out and very importantly as well doesn't have the opportunity to mutate very much and develop vaccine-resistant variants.

70% that's a very ambitious goal by the 4th of July. Biden's outreach plan prioritizes pop-up and mobile vaccine sites as well as walk-in appointments at places like pharmacies, federal dollars will go to support local outreach efforts to create more trust in the vaccine focusing on low-income communities and rural parts of the country where uptake rates are relatively low. It's possible that in that big televised address to the nation last week, on day 99, that Biden gave his message in exactly the wrong way. Here's what he said.

President Joe Biden: Go get vaccinated America. Go and get the vaccination. They're available.

Brian: I don't know maybe he was kind of barking and lecturing at people in a way that [chuckles] isn't really going to, "Go, get vaccinated." I hope it works because I'm definitely on his side on this, but I don't know. By contrast, the Washington Post had a piece this week on vaccine skeptics who did change their minds. The article referenced the segment we had on the show, I'm not taking credit for this.

This just happened to happen here. Last month, we were discussing long COVID, it wasn't even about vaccine hesitancy or reluctance or whatever you want to call it. It was about long COVID and the people who are suffering from that. The Washington Post article mentions a former vaccine skeptic named Anderson, who was a listener and turned out to be part of a vaccine focus group who detailed what changed his mind.

Here's what the Post says, "Two folks who were long haul symptom holders of COVID-19 got on the show and said as soon as they got the shot, the symptoms faded away." That's true. We got those callers. I was surprised to hear it. That the vaccine could have been associated with long haul COVID symptoms disappearing, they never made that claim at Moderna or Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, AstraZeneca, but the listener Anderson says, "That's when I was convinced to go take my shot."

That was in the Washington Post. Other things in that story that the Post said convinced people; getting vaccinated opens up travel, return to work, general return to pre-pandemic life. One person mentions wanting to attend a New York Yankees game. Funny enough, Governor Cuomo just yesterday announced that they're going to be different sections in Yankee Stadium and Citi Field starting later this month for people who are vaccinated and people aren't vaccinated. That's very interesting. Also, people mentioned trusting healthcare workers, especially local pharmacists, and people who are caregivers want to stay healthy for their loved ones as well as being part of something bigger than yourself.

Really interesting stuff in that Washington Post article. We are happy to have back with us a guest who has been coming on every week for a number of weeks now, who is really made this her specialty, convincing the unconvinced to get vaccines and helping to provide access to people who might want them, but there have been barriers and that is S. Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media, and CEO and publisher of Epicenter-NYC. As I say, she's done a lot of outreach work and wants to see less judgement in similar efforts. Hi, Mitra, welcome back to WNYC.

Mitra: Hey, Brian, it's great to be back with you.

Brian: Isn't that a great story from the show?

Mitra: It was, yes.

Brian: Like I say, I'm not trying to take credit for this. We weren't even doing a "convince you to take vaccine segment," it just turned out that way from someone's genuine story.

Mitra: Yes. I think those stories are really what resonate with people. We'll get there, but the more stories people can share like that one I think the better and those, they're just so personal and they really work. I promise, they work.

Brian: I don't want to dump on Biden's very much who's really trying everything he can do, but I don't know, I was a little taken aback when, "Get vaccinated, get vaccinated." That's not going to do it.

Mitra: I'm feeling good towards Biden this week for what you just mentioned, which is he's focusing on walking appointments at pharmacies, he's moving to smaller mobile sites, and really getting in the community. I'm going to give him a pass on the language because I think the actions that the federal government is finally taking are in line with what communities need.

That being said, Brian, you're absolutely right and I think that it's coming from a politician is something else for us to be wary of because what I've noticed for much of even not just in the more recent vaccine debates, but just over the last year, and how we talk about COVID, I think we took the rhetoric from the Trump years and how polarized the country is and you've cited a Washington Post story. You've read all the stories about how to talk to your relatives at the Thanksgiving dinner table if you disagree with them.

I worry that we are taking that approach to convincing people to get their vaccine and whether you vote republican or democrat is a very different discussion at the dinner table than your decision to get a vaccine or not. Some of what you're describing, I think, is exactly how it's landing, which is a politician is telling me to do something I don't agree with them and it just falls on deaf ears.

Brian: I see, for example, that you don't even like the term that the media so commonly uses, and I do too included in that, vaccine hesitancy. I avoided it in the intro until this point because I want to learn from you, what's wrong with vaccine hesitancy?

Mitra: I think vaccine hesitancy, it basically assigns a negativity to the end-user who we're trying to convince to get the vaccine. I don't think we've solved for vaccine access and we're kind of almost leapfrogging, if you will, to a place of saying people are vaccine-hesitant, meaning they are skeptical, or they don't want the vaccine before we've solved for all the factors that might be preventing them from getting it. What do I mean by that?

Brian, you and I have talked almost every week about outreach and information and yet again, we're going to talk about outreach and information because I think we still have a population that is not on Twitter, not on Facebook, not watching Biden's speech before Congress, not seeing commercials, I got to say, I don't think the government is spending enough on media and that's a plug for you and me. I think that we need to see way more outreach so that vaccines and how you get them are ubiquitous.

I worry that we talk about vaccine hesitancy before we've even tried really hard to make sure people know, "Here's the information on getting a vaccine, here's where you can get it, here's why you should get it. Do you want to go to a Yankee game? Do you want a $10 gift card? Do you want to work?" So many employers are now saying they prefer that you're vaccinated. I don't think we've messaged that area, which is really critical and exactly what you just outlined in the Washington Post and how you can convince people to do this.

Unfortunately, the narrative has become people don't want the vaccine which has turned it political. Yes, there are people who don't want the vaccine, but I'm not convinced we have done everything in our power to spread the good word on vaccines. My hope is we can get to that 70% with a more dual track of convincing people and a bit more of the debunking and so forth.

Brian: Do you have an alternative shorthand for people in the media to use other than vaccine hesitancy?

Mitra: I think vaccine access. I also just think every time we write about vaccine hesitancy, I would love if media would-- Actually, the government just released a series of links this week in order for you to get your vaccine. There's a phone number, you can text. If you give them your zip code, it will spit out the nearest vaccine sites near you. Again, I have some good news off of Joe Biden, so let's not dump on him too much this week, he really is trying to give you the tools to get the vaccine closest to you.

I think to the extent that the media is covering this, and does stories about why people don't want to, and they prefer Pfizer. There's so many takes out there. Nothing stops us from putting in a box or some links with that story to how to get this.

Brian: Yet, haven't we at least to some degree past that point? I realize access is still an issue for a lot of people, but I don't know if it's right to say this is primarily a matter of access at this point, based on the reporting that I've been seeing. Even in New York City, we might have talked about this last week briefly, half of New York City firefighters who had access from the beginning, and other frontline healthcare workers who, "Here, this is coming to your workplace you're the first pick, nobody else can get it yet, we're giving it to you." Half the firefighters in New York City have declined the vaccine and half the people in some of the hospitals in New York City.

I was watching a report from a county in Colorado the other day, where they have the capacity to give out 1,500 shots per day at their local facility, and they used to be oversubscribed, now only 1,000 people a day are showing up. They're having 500 extra doses every day and figuring out what to do, and that's typical. There is something there that's not just access, right?

Mitra: That's fair. Brian, I think that's a point well taken, it's that we dwell on that population at the risk of potentially getting us to the 70%, and I think it's possible to do both. The other thing with the group of firefighters that you're mentioning is that it does take some people time to get used to what this even represents. The firefighters might be at 50%, but as they see people who have gotten their vaccine are fine, or sharing stories like the one you've said, maybe they go to church and the church has them on site, and it becomes socially unacceptable to not have your vaccine.

I think we want to try to create those situations for people in multiple ways and then public employment, to what you were saying earlier and what I just mentioned, of how do we make it untenable to come to work and not be vaccinated when you're as public-facing as a firefighter? That's an uncomfortable conversation. It gets a little bit into the judgment, but I think we're there. I think we're there.

Brian: Listeners, let's take a few phone calls. If you have a story of what Mitra is calling a non-judgmental way to get somebody, and this can happen one person at a time, it's not just from the president or people who host talk shows or anything like that. Essentially, happens one person at a time, so it can be a single-person story. Any personal experience about non-judgmental experiences that wound up helping somebody decide to get vaccinated? Matthew in Hoboken might have one. Matthew, you're on WNYC. Hi, there.

Matthew: Hi, good morning, Brian. Good morning, Mitra. How are you doing today?

Mitra: Hi, Matthew.

Matthew: I actually have a very interesting story. I was on my way in a Lyft to get my second vaccine. About halfway through the ride, my Lyft driver asked me if I was going to the vaccination sites. We got to talking and he told me he was very hesitant to get it because he heard his friends had gotten pretty bad symptoms after their first shot, but his family is from the Dominican Republic, and he was hoping to go back there soon.

We got to talking, and after about 10 minutes of me putting my lawyer persuasion pads on, I actually convinced him to get his walk-in first vaccine. My Lyft driver and I went into the vaccination site, we got our shots together. We sat for 15 minutes afterwards and talked and got to know each other, and yes he drove me home. That was a pretty cool story and a great way to get someone vaccinated. It's a pretty funny story nonetheless.

Brian: A great story, Matthew. Thank you very much. Let's go to another one. This is about access, actually. Joe in Far Rockaway, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe. Thanks for calling in.

Joe: Hi. I just wanted to say that in the Rockaways-- Gothamist just had a story about how the East Side of the Rockaways has a very low vaccination rate compared to the West Side, busy point and which is richer, but there's just a real lack of medical care in the Rockaways. It's a desert, and we lost [unintelligible 00:15:23] hospital, and there's a small St. John's East. I'm just wondering whether the lack-- I got vaccinated in Mainland Queens up in New York's University, my exwife also got vaccinated, we had to drive 25 minutes to get vaccinated. I just think that some places may be medical deserts.

Brian: Joe, thank you. Mitra, medical deserts. Yes, right?

Mitra: Yes, very much so. In the Rockaways is one area that we've been mentioning for weeks now. If the caller could give the producers your number and information, we're happy to help. There's two ways, one is to use that system that I just talked about, which tells you the nearest pharmacy or site that you can get vaccinated.

The other is, there's a number of doctors and health care organizations that are trying to assist, not just the homebound population, but people who are in harder-to-reach areas. They're doing this certainly across rural America, but here in New York City, areas like the one the caller is talking about would qualify. We have connected with some of those folks and can connect the caller.

It's worth noting that a lot of doctors are in this predicament where they have doses, they have Moderna or Pfizer, for example, and they will call and say, "Our patients have mostly taken it." we would not mind making good old fashioned house calls to places that might need it, and are not getting access. That's another trend that we've been seeing over the last week or so from doctors wanting to do exactly the type of work the caller mentions.

Brian: A few more minutes with S. Mitra Kalita, co-founder of URL Media and CEO and publisher of Epicenter-NYC, who's done a lot to match people and vaccines and been coming on with us every week for what? Five, six weeks now to talk about the various aspects of this and help the effort. Tweet, by the way, from listener Soumia, who writes, "Every time Mitra Kalita is on, Brian Lehrer is a good segment."

Mitra: [laughs] That's very kind, Mia. I don't know Mia, so I'm grateful for that.

Brian: Matt in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Matt.

Matt: Hey. I'm just having conversations with neighbors and friends. People seem to have concerns about extra long-term, maybe more subtle side effects that deal with your biological systems in subtle ways, and it's just hard to find any information that really speaks to that directly.

Brian: Mitra?

Mitra: Yes, that's right. There is another group of vaccine hesitancy, Brian, where I'm fine if you use the word which is on the second dose. We're hearing increasingly from people because of the fear of side effects, and the unknown side effects. People just don't want to get their second dose, and we're hearing this increasingly. There's a reason that we're increasingly partnering with doctors, I am not a doctor. I've never worked in public health. I didn't even cover health until this most recent foray into vaccines. What we do with folks who call us or email for help in that area is that we do have doctors we connect them to. Your primary care doctor is always going to be the best line of defense on this.

I do think the one downside of sharing the stories is that people think one person's side effects are definitely going to be theirs. So they say, "Well, I can't deal with chills or being down for two days." People just immediately think someone else's experience will be mine. Another part of the messaging, which you're increasingly seeing on Twitter, but again, most of America is not living or getting their information on Twitter, are people saying, "I got both vaccines, I had no side effects. I'm absolutely fine," but I do think the extent that we can share that as the normal stories would also help some of what's being described and the hesitancy around that, especially with the second dose.

Brian: I got both shots. I got a little tired. I was fine.

Mitra: Yes. I was fine. For what it's worth, I got a little sore in the arm, but I almost worried it didn't work because everyone was talking about their side effects and I didn't really have them.

Brian: Sore in the arm too. Yes, but I don't even count that.

Mitra: Yes.

Brian: Matthew on Long Island, you're on WNYC with Mitra Kalita. Hi, Matthew.

Matthew: Good morning, Brian. I just wanted to-- The other day I was chatting with a friend of mine in East Elmhurst, Istoria, that area, and she over the weekend got her second dose. She's primarily a Spanish-speaking-- Spanish is her first language. She went in, besides the fact she said there was really no one there, more importantly, said there was really no one there who spoke Spanish. I'm wondering if she had any questions. It was just ironic being that East Elmhurst was-- Talking about Epicenter, was the epicenter here in New York.

I'm wondering what resources are going towards informing people about the vaccine in different languages? Obviously, Spanish is hugely important here in New York, but there's dozens of other languages spoken in Queens alone. I'm wondering what resources are being put out to reach people in different populations?

Mitra: Brian, that's a great, great point. I think one of the reasons Epicenter has been successful with our efforts is because we had committees in the native languages of our community. We had a Chinese language committee, we had Spanish, of course, we had Bangla, and so forth. That worked wonders in terms of access issues, as Matthew was outlining, but remember, language is not just information for the end-user, it's actually the connection. By speaking the same language, people also will ask questions about what are the side effects?

When do I have to get my second shot? Suddenly a whole world that might not have opened up if it's a government facility that has no Spanish speakers, it's just a very different conversation. Thankfully, I think both federal and actually state, and city, all three, have caught on to this. Increasingly, we're not just seeing translators on sites, but at the mobile vaccine unit that was in Jackson Heights last week, there was actually a list of all of the languages that they have people who speak on site. I think that's another way to increase access.

I'll just tell you one little anecdote, Epicenter was tabling in Jackson Heights, about 10 days ago, and we hired a Nepali, Tibetan translator. We thought we were just hiring a translator to help folks in very high traffic area get booked for vaccines or get information on vaccines. She turned out to be a pretty prominent Facebook and Instagram influencer. She started going live from our table encouraging those communities, the Tibetan and Nepali communities to come. She kept saying, "Come, come, come get your vaccines. I'm here all day."

It took a while, but after about an hour, we started getting dozens of people from the Nepali and Tibetan communities coming by the table. They said hi to her, they got booked for vaccines, they got information on it. We've been working in the community, but for me, that was just the lesson and we haven't even scratched the surface of who that community includes. I do think that's where the government needs to start moving into those pockets of influence and language as well.

Brian: That's a great story. Last question. I'm just curious what you think of Cuomo's announcement yesterday about the ballparks? I'm trying to figure out if this is carrot or stick or both, or this is judgmental in a way that's going to turn people off and cause a lot of backlash or if this is really going to help.

For people who haven't heard this, starting one day later this month, I think it's the 19th, but don't quote me, they're going to be able to go to full capacity at Yankee Stadium and Citi Field, in theory, but for people who are vaccinated, there's not going to be a capacity limit in their sections. They're going to designate parts of the stadiums, apparently, where vaccinated people can sit in full capacity sections.

For people who aren't vaccinated, A, they will offer the vaccine at the ballpark and give them a free ticket to a future game, but when they go inside, they'll have to sit in a separate section with social distancing, so that they're not vaccinated-- I mean because they're not vaccinated and so they don't so easily spread it. I don't know. What is that, Mitra? Is that a stigmatization of those people that's going to cause taunting? It is an athletic event after all, or is that good carrot? You know what I mean?

Mitra: Yes, now I totally do. I have the same feeling, Brian, if I didn't really know how to feel about it. I think it's a social experiment. My hope is it incentivizes the non-vaccinated to come along. Maybe we need to combine the firefighter population that you mentioned and say, "Look, you could sit in these sections." I think it is an effort. I applaud creative thinking right now. I can't really knock it yet.

I think it is also a version of what we're already seeing in our social circles. What do I mean by that? We have started to tiptoe into seeing families who we haven't seen for the last year. We have a little yard and we keep the door open if they come inside, but we've definitely started to socialize in smaller groups, and we are asking people if they're vaccinated, if they're not vaccinated, we're not socializing with them. I think there already is going to be a natural parting of sections of socializing in our country.

My hope is that it's not as political and polarized as the last few years. That might sound very naive, but I really hope that's not what's going to define us as it did for the last few years. I think Andrew Cuomo is just putting a stake in the game and saying, "Well, this is how it's playing out anyway in families. Let's see if public facilities can mirror that and incentivize the population that's not vaccinated to go join, hopefully, the more crowded sections."

Brian: My producer just said in my ear, she can imagine a chant springing up at the ballpark from the dense section, "Get your shot, get your shot." I'm going to extend this by one call because Max in Boerum Hill has such a great question. Max, real quick with Mitra.

Max: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My wife and I got married on Zoom in August, and we're finally going to be having our party a year later. We're crafting an email to try and get people and we want all of our guests to be vaccinated, so we can have a big mass plus wonderful dance party, but we're trying to figure out the words to use so that we don't say like, "You can't come if you're not vaccinated," but instead encourage our potential guests to get vaccinated. Yes, that's what we're trying to do.

Brian: Any suggestions, Mitra?

Mitra: I just crafted an email like this myself for something Epicenter is hosting. The language I used was, "Please confirm that you will be at least two weeks from your second dose or first dose in the case of J&J. If you attend, there will be temperature checks." I laid it on pretty thick because this is not just about your comfort, but really the comfort of everybody else. It just takes two unvaccinated people and it's a different dynamic.

I was pretty explicit in the email I just crafted, although, I assure you, Max, it took me more than it usually takes me to write such an email. I think being honest, explicit, and also telling them in the case of like temperature checks, which initially I was surprised are still a thing, but actually provide an additional layer of safety and comfort to your guests. You want to have a great day, and let's remove all of the barriers that it would take for that. congratulations to you. That's great.

Brian: Max, thank you. I hope that's helpful. S. Mitra Kalita, the always helpful co-founder of URL Media and CEO and Publisher of Epicenter-NYC, who's done so much vaccine outreach. Thank you so much again.

Mitra: Thanks, Brian. It was great to be with you.

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