Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Brian today. Now we'll wrap up today's show with a check-in with those of you who have adopted a four-day workweek. Why are we bringing this up now? Well, in the past when we've discussed a four-day workweek, it always seemed like a hypothetical, a pipe dream. We've heard of companies in the UK testing out the model. While both employees and companies saw benefits, a four-day workweek didn't seem like an idea that would be widespread here any time soon.

Fast forward to 2024. New York City's largest public union, DC 37, is now testing a four-day workweek model. Mayor Adams is collaborating with the union to provide city employees who can't work remotely with the option of trying out a four-day workweek, citing equity and a new era of work as his reasoning. One thing to note, there hasn't been a reduction of working hours. These workers are not putting in 32-hour weeks like the original model on a four-day workweek. Instead, they're working longer hours on those four days that they're in the office for the price of enjoying that extra day off.

Listeners, do we have any DC 37 workers who are off this Friday morning after working your four-day workweek? How's it going since the pilot started? Are the longer days worth that extra day off? We also want to hear from those of you who have been working four days in other fields. What does a four-day workweek look like in your workplace? Have you had to sacrifice pay, career gains, or anything else? Has the trade-off been worthwhile? You can call or text us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

Joining us to talk about how companies are pulling off a four-day workweek is Vanessa Fuhrmans, deputy bureau chief of Wall Street Journal's careers and workplace team. Vanessa, welcome to WNYC.

Vanessa: Thanks for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Vanessa, can you start us off by just explaining what the traditional four-day workweek model looks like?

Vanessa: Sure. As you pointed out, the New York program now, it's the longer four-day workweek. [chuckles] Mostly 10 hours a day for four days so you still get the 40 hours in. The ultimate promise of the four-day workweek is to work a four-day, say 32-hour, workweek, where in those four days you are still working eight hours. The idea is to improve workflows and create enough efficiencies so that you and your organization are actually getting done everything you would in a normal five-day workweek.

Brigid Bergin: Last year there was a four-day workweek study in the United Kingdom. What benefits did researchers see amongst employees and companies who participated? Did any of those companies return to the five-day workweek model after participating in the trial?

Vanessa: Sure. Yes. The results were overwhelmingly quite positive. I should note these pilots were organized by advocacy groups that are making the case for a four-day workweek, so there's that. They tend to be smaller companies that participated in this. That plays a role in how viable it is in implementing the four-day workweek.

By and large, the employees that participated in these pilots said that they felt less stressed. They felt like their day was more efficient. They felt like they were able to produce or be as productive pretty much as much as they were when they were working five days a week. Yes, they reported better work-life balance, so it's all around quite positive for the employees.

Now, some companies didn't continue to do it, but they were a minority. I think they cited mostly recent that it was-- Well, for instance, companies that didn't really implement new or more efficient workflows found those four days were quite stressful. Some workers reported not being able to finish everything on time. Then another interesting side note is that some of the companies said that they lost a little bit of the conviviality because people were working more efficiently. Perhaps less chitchat in the break room and that sort of thing. I think that it was still the minority of the people who participated in the studies.

Brigid Bergin: That's so interesting. Listeners, I know we've probably got some folks out there who work a four-day workweek and maybe are off this Friday. We'd love to hear how it's going for you. Are you working longer hours to have that extra day off or are you short-working a shorter week? How did you negotiate the four-day workweek? Is it something that is a company-wide policy or, in the case of DC 37, a union-wide trial that's going on here in the city, or is it something maybe you just negotiated specifically for your own case?

How's it going, and are there any drawbacks that you think are worth raising?

Vanessa, as I mentioned, DC 37, the union representing city employees, implemented this four-day workweek that varies from the traditional model. They're still working the full 40 hours, but instead in four days rather than five. Is this kind of four-day workweek being implemented anywhere else? Do you think this is sort of a functional compromise where both employees who want that extra day off can get it in employers who can't pay them the same salaries? They don't have to adjust as much as well?

Vanessa: Yes. We have seen this kind of 10-hour-a-day, four-day-a-week model happening on a small scale for some time. I know on the federal government level, there are at least some agencies that offer that as an alternative, and in state and municipal governments around the country here and there, you have that. I know in California I see a lot of government agency jobs advertised with a four-day workweek similar to the model that New York is now trying. In healthcare, you have a lot of healthcare workers, depending on the hospital organization or so forth, that are working, say, 10-hour shifts and then fewer days a week.

Brigid Bergin: Sure.

Vanessa: What I think is really interesting about the New York model is that it's being offered as a way to give workers who can't work remotely the option to work four days. Until now, the big focus has been on white-collar workers who have at least some ability to work remotely. This would be a way to give a four-day or a shorter workweek to people who have to be there in person to do their jobs, which is really interesting.

Brigid Bergin: Well, speaking of DC 37 workers, I think we have a DC 37 worker on the line. Michael in Staten Island. Michael, welcome to WNYC.

Michael: Thank you very much for having me. I'm a current member of DC 37, but who is hoping to get on the compressed schedule. Previously when I was working for Cornell upstate, I was able to work a four-day week doing field work, and it had amazing benefits in terms of flexibility, mental health. We were more productive because getting out to a site we were able to do our field trials and stuff, and being out there for a couple more hours a day really helped.

Brigid Bergin: Michael, thanks so much for that. I want to go to Fred in Philadelphia. Fred, thanks for calling.

Fred: Hi. Thanks so much. I'm a restaurant industry worker, and I think that if you are interested in trials on four-day workweeks, restaurant people generally work a three or four-day week with longer hours. It's very interesting in terms of amount of effort and time balance that we put in. Yes, we have to work longer days, but you get all your work done at once, are generally more exhausted getting off those longer days, but then have hopefully a few free days in a row to do errands and other life stuff.

Brigid Bergin: Fred, thanks so much for that call. Also a nice reminder that-- We've mentioned, Vanessa, a couple industries where these different types of schedules are already in place. Healthcare. Fred coming from restaurants and the food industry is another great example. Since DC 37 is our union of a special note today, I want to get Brian from Brooklyn on the line. Brian, thanks for calling WNYC.

Brian: Oh, you're welcome. Hi.

Brigid Bergin: Do I understand correctly that you do have this four-day workweek?

Brian: I do. I do. DC 37 is my union. I'm a social worker at one of the city hospitals. Yes, I've had a four-day workweek for a few years now. As I said to your screener, it started during COVID just to consolidate and, I think, minimize our time actually at the hospital just to kind of decrease our exposure chances, and then it just continued on for me since that time.

Brigid Bergin: How do you like it? How's it going?

Brian: Oh, it's fantastic. It's really improved my quality of life significantly. It makes my actual workday more efficient. I feel like I'm just more focused and I actually get more accomplished. Then obviously having an extra day off during the week to myself is great.

Brigid Bergin: Well, Brian, [chuckles] thank you so much for both your work and also for your call letting us know how it's going. Vanessa, any reactions to what you heard in those callers? I think a lot of flags for the four-day schedule among people who have it and who have had it talking about the benefits to their work-life balance.

Vanessa: Yes. The caller who just was speaking, he talked about how it pushed him to be more productive or more efficient during the time he was working. I think that is a big aspect of this whole effort to go to a shorter workweek. It works as a forcing mechanism. Now, when you're really truly working fewer hours in the week, you have to change your workflows as an organization to make it work.

You have to reexamine the way you schedule meetings and who has to be in meetings. Meetings are a huge culprit. Also, just emails and all the things that we get bogged down in that interrupt our, say, actual work [chuckles] during the week. I find it interesting that even working a 10-hour shift, not trying to compress the work into fewer hours, that that also encouraged that particular caller to work more efficiently as well.

Brigid Bergin: Vanessa, I'm curious. Since this is something that you're covering and reporting on, do you see this as a trend continuing to expand across companies throughout the United States in the coming months, or do you think this will still be limited to a subset of maybe what someone would describe as progressive employers with means?

Vanessa: Sure. I think both. First of all, I think the big question is what happens in the job market? One reason why the four-day workweek has gained some steam in the last few years is because workers have had a real reckoning with their work lives and they've made it known to their employers. Employers have been forced to listen because there's been a shortage of labor in the market.

The job market is booming. It's been working much more on the favor of workers until recently, but we may be coming to an inflection point. We see, especially in white-collar jobs, that the job market is slowing, even though the overall numbers look very strong.

Brigid Bergin: Sure.

Vanessa: I think the question will be whether employers will still be incentivized to experiment with things like these to drive more workers.

Brigid Bergin: We're going to have to leave it there. My guest has been Vanessa Fuhrmans, deputy bureau chief of The Wall Street Journal's careers and workplace team. Vanessa, thank you so much.

Vanessa: Thank you.

Brigid Bergin: The Brian Lehrer Show's producers are Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, Esperanza Rosenbaum. Our intern is Ethlyn Daniel-Scherz. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen takes care of the podcast. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz are at the Studio Controls. I'm Brigid Bergin, and this is The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Have a fantastic weekend. Thank you for listening.

[music]

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.