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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We've been talking about the postal service and the election on the show, obviously, and I want to play a remarkable five-minute stretch from Monday's House Oversight Committee hearing with Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, the businessman and Trump donor appointed to the posts this year. You probably know that he now says he will stop the process that was taking place of removing postal sorting equipment and blue mailboxes until after the election, but questions remain. Now, this section of the hearing is getting a lot of notice for the questioning of Congresswoman Katie Porter of California. She's a former law professor. You'll hear how she teases out some of Louis DeJoy's ignorance about the postal system. He's new to it, even though he runs it. Then, she questions him directly on whether he'll reverse some of the dismantling of their operation that's been done on his watch. Each House Member gets five minutes at these Congressional hearings. That's how they work. In the case of Katie Porter's five minutes, here's the whole thing.

Katie Porter: Mr. DeJoy, thank you for being with us today. What is the cost of a first-class postage stamp?

Louis DeJoy: 55¢.

Katie: Just wanted to check. What about to mail a postcard?

Louis: I don't know, ma'am.

Katie: You don't know the cost to mail a postcard?

Louis: I don't.

Katie: What if I want to mail a-- You said 55¢ for a first-class stamp, but what if it's like one of those greeting cards that's a square envelope, then, what is the postage?

Louis: I'll submit that I know very little about a postage stamp.

Katie: What is the weight limit-- You were more on the shipping logistics business, what's the weight limit for priority mail?

Louis: 70 pounds.

Katie: What is the starting rate for US Post Office- USPS priority mail?

Louis: The starting rate for what?

Katie: USPS priority mail.

Louis: Starting weight, 14 ounces.

Katie: No, the rate, the price.

Louis: I don't know.

Katie: Do you know about-- Within a million or so, can you tell me how many people voted by mail in the last presidential election?

Louis: No, I cannot.

Katie: To the nearest 10 million? Is that a no, Mr. DeJoy?

Louis: I would be guessing. I don't want to guess.

Katie: Okay. Mr. DeJoy, I am concerned. I'm glad you know the price of a stamp, but I'm concerned about your understanding of this agency. I'm particularly concerned about it because you started taking very decisive action when you became postmaster general. You started directing the unplugging and destroying of machines, changing of employee procedures, and locking of collection boxes. As a professor, I've always told my students that one of the most important rules in life is to read the instructions. Did you actually read and independently analyze the major overhaul plans before you ordered them to take effect?

Louis: Again, I will repeat that I did not order major overhaul plans. The items you identify were not directed by me. I did, and we don't need much analysis to get, to run your trucks to a schedule.

Katie: Reclaiming my time, Mr. DeJoy, could you please tell me who did order these changes, if you, as postmaster general, did not because these changes have resulted in-- You have said yourself in this hearing--

Louis: The postal service has been around for 250 years. There were plans. There were many, many executives, almost 30,000 executives within the organization. There were plans that existed prior to my arrival that will continue- that will implement it.

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, if you did not order these actions to be taken, please tell the committee the name of who did.

Louis: I do not know.

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, did you analyze these plans before they went into effect. You, as postmaster general, supervise whomever did, apparently-- [crosstalk]

Louis: As I've stated numerous times, the plans were in effect and being implemented before I arrived.

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, do you take responsibility for these changes?

Louis: I take responsibility from the day I sat in the seat for any service deterioration that has occurred. You're asking about operational changes that go on throughout the whole organization around the country. I don't--

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, I'm reclaiming my time, sir. Mr. DeJoy, will you commit to reversing these changes?

Louis: No.

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, will you commit if the independent-- I want to switch to conflicts of interest, quickly. Will you commit that if the inspector general finds that you committed misconduct with regard to your financial interests in any other company such as XPO Logistics or Amazon, will you commit if the inspector general finds that you committed misconduct, will you commit to then resigning?

Louis: I don't believe they will find misconduct, but I don't see why I would commit here right now to resigning for any reason.

Katie: You don't think there's any reason that you should ever resign?

Louis: No reason that I've heard here today.

Katie: Mr. DeJoy, do you today-- Because this is that you've gone back and forth a bit, I want to ask one final question. Do you own any financial interest, whether options or stocks covered calls, bought or sold, do you own today any financial interest in Amazon?

Louis: I do not.

Brian: California Congresswoman, Democrat Katie Porter, questioning Postmaster General Louis DeJoy in the House Oversight Committee hearing on Monday. Now, another issue regarding the post office service changes that didn't come up in that exchange is that they hurt people of color and otherwise in disenfranchised communities, disproportionately, that would include people in rural communities too. To talk about that and more, we're happy to welcome Derrick Johnson the president and CEO of the NAACP. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to WNYC, Mr. Johnson. Hi.

Derrick Johnson: Hi. Thank you for the opportunity.

Brian: Had you heard that whole Katie Porter five minutes with the postmaster general before?

Derrick: I have been. It is unconscionable that we are looking at the destruction of an American institution that so many people rely on, not only for voting but for their medications and military veterans. We are destroying this institution for the purpose of persuading the outcome of an election. This borderlines on treason, in my opinion. This is an awful reality that we are confronted with. Unfortunately, in the next 70 days or so, between now and the election, we can't even imagine what else they're going to seek to destroy in order to influence the outcome of the presidential election. This is an unfortunate point in our history.

Brian: I'll ask you in a minute if you're reassured or to what degree you're reassured by Louis DeJoy saying they are not going to remove any more sorting equipment or blue mailboxes between now and the elections and promising that they do have the capacity to deliver mail, I guess up to a week before election day, but some people may not realize the disparate impact aspect of the post office issue. Why are you, as head of the NAACP, speaking out on this?

Derrick: To use an illustration of the Wisconsin primary in the city of Milwaukee with a majority African American, substantial population of African Americans, I should say, where those individuals had to choose between their health and their constitutional right to vote. They stood in very long lines because of the closing of so many precincts in that city. Mail-in voting should be an option for individuals who are held compromise in the midst of this health pandemic. Then, when you overlay that with the high percentage of African Americans who live in the Southeast region in the South, many communities being rural, there is another impact because rural communities depend on the postal service more so than many other communities because they rely on the delivery of services such as medication. This should not be taken place. Elections are parks and activities, but the administration of election, how we carry them out, how we open up access to voting, how do we make sure there's full participation, making sure people are not making life decisions just to exercise their right to vote. That should not be a part of the conversation, and that's why we had to file the lawsuit, that's why we are in the midst of all of this. This should not be a partisan question. This should be about how are we ensuring that people are safe as they exercise their right to vote.

Brian: You mentioned the lawsuit, are you a party at the end of the ICP to the lawsuit filed around these issues by the New York State Attorney General Leticia James yesterday?

Derrick: We filed a separate lawsuit last week. We are supportive of all of the attorney general's lawsuits that's have been filed across the country. The NAACP, along with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, we joined forces for this purpose. This should be an outrage to the American public, Black or white. Our institutions, our systems of governance should be strengthened, should be fortified, not demolished for individuals to have personal gain, whether it's election outcomes or economic benefits.

Brian: Mr. DeJoy did say that he has halted until at least after the election, the removal of sorting equipment from post offices and blue mailboxes. What would your lawsuit have a court compel the postal service to do between now and the election that they haven't already done?

Derrick: Well, re-install the machines and the mailboxes that were taken out of commission, repair the injury that's already been done, but most importantly, his word of assurance fall on deaf ears. It's his actions. His actions have shown that he has a disregard for the postal service, a disregard for the workers, and a disregard for the many Americans that depend on the postal services, not only to cast their ballot but to receive their medications. His words fall on deaf ears when he, in fact, also said in this same interview we just heard that he's going to halt moving forward but he's not going to restore the harm that was already done. Our lawsuit is to address the harm that's been done because the machines, which are high capacity sorting machines, will be required to ensure timely, efficient delivery of mail. He has not put forth any particular or alternative mechanism to be quicker, more efficient than the very machines that he disassemble. How can you say that, "I assure you that the services would not be lost," but the very system that was put in place to make it more efficient, you dismantle?

Brian: Listeners, we can take phone calls for Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP, on the post office or anything else, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. I agree with you. It was one of the most striking moments of that exchange with Congresswoman Porter when she asked him the direct question of whether he would reverse the actions that have already been taken under his leadership, that he said he didn't order and he didn't know who did order, and he said, no. Can a court compel him to re-install sorting machines between now and the election? Can it happen in that timely fashion?

Derrick: We hope so. We hope that the court would act soon, enjoin any further harm, and require replacement. I just spoke to our group yesterday in NAACP, we're clear, if we don't fight, we don't win and we could not sit idly by and allow this level of destruction of an American institution for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the election. We're going to be continuing to push forward. We go on to work as hard as we can to make sure every eligible person casts their ballot, even with these type disruptions. We must continue to push in order for this democracy to work. People may not see it the same way I see it, but we are teetering on a level of destroying our democracy that may not be repairable if we go into a new administration that's acting with this level of the callous towards our institutions, the rule of law, or any system of normalcy. This administration has been a disaster. We are sitting in the midst of a health pandemic, in the backdrop of economic collapse, with racial strife, and the only seeing the person sitting in the White House care about is his image and making sure that his friends generate a profit.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Derrick on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP. Hello, Derrick. Derrick, you're on with Derrick.

Derrick: I'm the original Derrick, and I'm also a lifetime member of the NAACP. I noticed something in the last 10 days, the blue mailboxes on the Upper West Side have been altered. They used to have that lid where you pull down the handle, throw your mail on the lid, and then, release the handle and it self-closes. Those lids have been removed. Now, there's a slot where you shove your mail into a slot. The slot is more narrow than the original lid. On Sunday night, I noticed a woman with a large envelope, she tried to put it into the mailbox, the blue mailbox, and it would not fit. She could not drop the mail in there. I assume it was pre-posted or it had the postage on it. My question is, does anybody know how wide or how the most narrow envelope for these mail-in ballots for voting are, and will they fit into the newly formed slots?

Brian: That's a great question. They had changed it from a lid to a slot some time ago in my neighborhood. I guess that's a national change that's been going on for some time at the USPS. Are you aware of that change? Is that an issue? Derrick asks the very relevant question, the ballot envelopes thin enough to fit in the new slots.

Derrick: I'm not aware, but I'm not surprised. We must also recognize that this is about the elections, but also, some individuals' long term plan have always been to destroy the post office so they can privatize delivery of mails and other packages. We're looking at how democracy is being subverted or those who seek to subvert democracy by eliminating access to voting by mail, while at the same time, there is a sizeable corporate community or entrepreneurial community who would like to see the postal service completely privatized. We are in the midst of this American institution being destroyed. That is concerning because it could create a private delivery system that price out our elderly and many people who depend on the postal services for so many things such as medications, especially in rural areas. When you begin to determine whether or not someone should receive packages and the value proposition of delivering the packages based on one's zip code or residency, rural or urban, poor or high income, you begin to eliminate access to the service. That's what we're confronted with here.

Brian: My understanding, by the way, of those slots, converting to the slots instead of the old pulled down lids, is that they are security measures primarily to prevent, what they call, fishing attempts, people were reaching into the mailboxes with whatever kind of device and pulling out stuff to steal. I'd be pretty confident that the ballots will fit. I have a friend who made some cloth masks and put one mask in each envelope to send to people and the cloth mask fit into the slot. I imagine if that does, then, the paper ballot in an envelope just containing the paper ballot won't have a problem getting in there. I also haven't heard anybody raised that issue before that. I'm pretty confident about that. We're going to take a break. We're going to continue with Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP. We'll start to talk about the shooting of Jacob Blake and other issues as well and take more of your calls. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, stay with us. [music] Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP. Mr. Johnson, I'll just let you say whatever you want about the police shooting of Jacob Blake as well as the unrest in his hometown of Kenosha, Wisconsin.

Derrick: It's appalling. Yet again, an individual who reportedly pulled over to break up a fight is shot seven times in the back, and there is no evidence that he had a weapon unless something came out, new. What possibly could these law enforcement officers been thinking? You have Dylann Roof who killed nine people in South Carolina, he gets arrested and on the way to the police station, they stopped and get him Burger King. Here, you have an African American who pulls over, kids in the back seat, to break up a fight, and he is then shot seven times in the back with his children watching and screaming. I'm speechless.

Brian: Yes. Could you tell us about the virtual march on Washington that you and the NAACP will be hosting this Friday, August 28th, which people in our history will know that was the date of Martin Luther King's famous I Have A Dream speech and that big march on Washington in 1963?

Derrick: 57 years later, we wanted to use this moment to commemorate that historic march. It was from that historic march that we began to see tremendous energy of people understanding the role that they needed to play to push, to ensure democracy worked for everyone. Out of that march came the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act. It emboldened many people in local communities to get engaged, to be involved. It was followed up by Freedom Summer. Those participants from Mississippi who left from the march who came home and began to organize perhaps one of the most strategic and effective organizing program for the summer of '64. That was a result of the march in Washington. Out of that, we hear and learn of key people like Fannie Lou Hamer and the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. It's so many things. This is that moment for us, that we in the backdrop of George Floyd, in the backdrop of a health pandemic, we have in front of us an election in November and opportunity for people to participate virtually because the next physical march we must do is to the polls in November, but virtually, hear from key speakers like Senator Cory Booker, Speaker Pelosi, Dr. William Barber, and many others to be inspired, to be encouraged, to understand that it is our job to make what people think is impossible possible as we prepare to march to the polls in November. In order for us to make democracy work for everyone, we must participate in November to change the policymakers who are sitting in the seats of power.

Brian: What would justice look like, in your opinion, for Jacob Blake, whose family says he is paralyzed from the waist down?

Derrick: First of all, those officers must be held accountable. This concept of qualified immunity, we must do away with. Law enforcement officers should not operate outside of the bounds of the law. We have so many good law enforcement officers, but there are those who are ill-equipped, ill-trained, not prepared, and who are simple bat actors, they should not be a part of that profession. We should also make sure, moving forward, that the profession of being a law enforcement officer, not only is respected but it's treated as a profession and not as a social welfare organization. Police officers should not be called when you have mental health issues. Police officers should not be called when there need to be social workers in place. We need to really look at how we deliver the services of protecting and serving our communities across racial line and empower those who should be in this space. You have communities that's living in trauma, you have households that's living in trauma, we need professionals who are experienced and trained in those areas like social workers and others. Many people who are homeless, living on the streets, who are chemically dependent, they are self-medicating. We need to have more mental health providers, more mental health professionals planted on those spaces, not calling on law enforcement officers for everything, much of which are not equipped to handle. Justice in that community, for that family, those officers need to be held accountable, immediately. It shouldn't be dragged on like what we see in the Louisville, Kentucky with Breonna Taylor, a woman who was sleeping in her own bed when police officers kicked in her door and killed her operating off of a warrant that was both defective, looking for a person they already had apprehended. There has to be accountability in these scenarios. We can no longer allow law enforcement agencies and fraternal orders of police to blame victims for their malicious or neglect in carrying out their duty.

Brian: Alec in The Bronx, you're on WNYC with Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP. Hello, Alec.

Alec: Hi. These are such horrible. To me, I call them lynchings by lynch mobs, which are police. The last two shooting I've seen, I looked at them straightforward, they were just murder, plain out murder. I was wondering, and this thought had come to my mind yesterday, are these people trying to instigate people to respond and cause riots so Trump can say that, "Oh, these people are vicious criminals and looters," because that's a normal reaction for people to see people get executed. I'm sure there are some people out there who are trying to stir up trouble just to get a response.

Brian: Alec, I'm going to get a response for you because we're going to run out of time. Just to be clear, Jacob Blake did survive that shooting. He is paralyzed from the waist down, his family tells us, but he did survive the shooting. Mr. Johnson, to Alec's theory, do you give it any credibility?

Alec: Tremendous credibility. I am concerned that as we see more of these incidents and you see communities reacting, in many cases where peaceful protest, you're going to have instigators or last night, for example, two people dead, one injured, and it is said to be a group of vigilantes who were not a part of the peaceful protesters, but individuals who were inciting. What happened in Minneapolis, it is still a question around the individual who broke the first window that was covered up inciting violence. We commend all of the peaceful protesters across the country, and it looks like America. You have Black and white, young, old, male, female, all saying the same thing that Black Lives Matter because until that happens, none of our lives will matter. Equal protection under the law should be the norm. Ensure that the constitution will guarantee that all men and women are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, and those rights are not trampled on and we all stand in unison to ensure that that promise that's in the constitution is carried out. That's important, but there are those who will try to incite. There are those-- I mean, what Doc Rivers said yesterday, the fact that this current convention is fanning the flames of fear but Black people are being killed in the street by police officers.

Brian: The mother of Jacob Blake, Julia Jackson, has been speaking out against violence on the protestor's side. She said on CNN last night, for example, "My family and I are very hurt, and quite frankly, disgusted. As his mother, please don't burn up property and cause havoc and tear your own homes down in my son's name. People shouldn't do it anyway, but to use my child or any other mother or father's child, our tragedy to react in that manner is just not acceptable, and it's not helping Jacob. It's not Jacob or any other of the men or women who have suffered in these areas," said Julia Jackson. Your thoughts?

Derrick: I could not have said it better. If you are in Kenosha, Wisconsin, or any state and you care about justice for Jacob, listen to Jacob's mother. Justice for Jacob will not come about by violence and destruction of property. Peaceful protests, we do support, but the destruction of property and violence is not the response nor should it be the answer.

Brian: I want to get your reaction before we run out of time to one thing at the convention since you brought up the convention. The President, they are trying to make an appeal there either to Black voters or to white voters to feel comfortable with how President Trump deals with race. Last night, there were a few moments at the convention that have been widely viewed as using people of color as props. For example, John Ponder, founder of the former prisoner re-entry assistance program called Hope For Prisoners and long ago convicted of bank robbery. The President staged an event with Mr. Ponder to unveil a pardon, and as you'll hear in this clip, like a surprise gift at a game show.

President Donald Trump: Now, I'd like to invite John's wife Jaime to join us as I grant John, I'm not sure you know this, a full pardon. I don't know if you know that, Jaime. Come on over here.

Jaime: Thank you.

President Trump: It's just an honor, and you have done incredible work.

John: Thank you, sir.

President Trump: All of Los Vegas and all of Nevada and all of every place in this country is very proud of you, the job you've done.

Brian: There was that. There was also the naturalization ceremony for five people from five different countries where, again, The President did almost all the talking, but he seems to be highlighting a right issue but maybe in a wrong way. What's your take on that?

Derrick: If you're trying to appeal to the Black community, it's not by saying you're pardoning a Black person. If you think the sum total of who we are as a people is based on incarceration, that's as offensive as doing nothing. If you're going to make five people citizens, that don't take away from the level of xenophobia that you've created, particularly, along the Mexican border and using the dog whistle or bullhorn of racism as it relates to a wall being constructed. You're pandering to your base when you do that. That's not about reaching across communities doing that. That is as offensive as saying nothing. This administration has allowed a level of xenophobia and racism to just ooze from the White House like we have not seen in my lifetime. The fact that you start this administration with the Charlottesville's issue and you say the good people on both sides are group of white supremacists who were spouting both anti-Semitic and racist statements and you do nothing in your three and a half years to address it, we are on a brink of- not on a brink, we are in the midst of tribalism that we have not seen since the '50s.

Brian: What do you make of the immigration piece there, the naturalization piece? Then, we're going to be out of time in just a minute, but for all that Trump has done to center blocking immigration, legal as well as illegal, for all that he ran in 2016 on the Muslim ban, the explicit Muslim ban, and then, center some people last night from majority Muslim nations, at least, one of them a woman wearing a headscarf, presumably, Muslim. What kind of mixed messages is he trying to send for what purpose? What do you make of it?

Derrick: Lot of mixed messages, as you said, then, he wanted to give a statement without the substance or policy change. He wants to have the images of inclusion without an administration that looks inclusive, that's governing inclusively as if we're going to forget all of the past, the current, and we know is going to be future statements that he's going to post on his social media, particularly, Twitter. It's made for television to cater to an ego and not made for public policy to bring people together.

Brian: Derrick Johnson, President & CEO of the NAACP. Thanks so much for coming on with us, appreciate it.

Derrick: All right, thank you. Have a good morning.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Coming up next, a piece of history from 50 years ago, exactly 50 years ago in 1970 that may have led up to this moment or contributed to it.

 

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