Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. By the way, one other correction to a caller during our segment with Richie Torres that I think is worth passing along. The caller from The Bronx who was complaining about what he called illegal immigrants being housed in shelters and hotels in New York City. Listener on Twitter accurately points out that even if we like to use the word illegal for some immigrants, these aren't illegal immigrants because it's legal to seek political asylum in the United States and that's what this current population of migrants is doing, so for the record.

Now, how to investigate your next apartment like an investigative reporter? Finding an apartment you like is the first hurdle, we know that. Low vacancy rates and an affordability crisis make that hard to begin with. These days, you may face a bidding war for an apartment you thought was way overpriced to begin with, but once you've climbed those first two mountains, how do you learn everything you can find out about that place that you just put a deposit on or that you're considering, everything from the real legal rent to any history of noise complaints, contamination and who knows what.

My next guest says a friend even discovered raccoons in her ceiling. With me now an actual investigative reporter who is ready to share some tips and tricks. It's Lisa Song, who usually writes about climate and the environment for ProPublica, but a new article is called, How to Investigate Your Next New York Apartment Like a Reporter. Lisa, thank you for joining us for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Lisa Song: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, call and share your apartment research and investigative stories or ask Lisa Song for advice. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you have a story, what did you learn from your situation, how did you deal with the landlord and how did you change your approach maybe the next time you went looking or maybe you're apartment hunting right now and have a question Lisa might be able to answer based on her reporting and her reporting on being a reporter as you look for an apartment.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Help us report this story or ask any apartment investigation question. Lisa, you start off by sharing your own story of an apartment you thought was a unicorn in a good way, but that turned out to be rotting meat in a trench coat as you so delicately put it. Tell our listeners what happened to you.

Lisa Song: When I first moved to New York in 2017, I ended up with an apartment that looked great. It had brand new appliances. I even had an in-unit washer dryer. It was only a half-hour commute to the office and it was a little less than 1,850 a month. It just seemed like a really good deal, but pretty soon I found out my radiator was leaking, my neighbor's radiators were leaking and it was sending water into the walls.

None of our mail was really delivered. It just got thrown onto the basement steps where it got rained on or snowed under. Then there was a building down the block that would have really, really loud parties at night up till 3:00 AM and it was so loud that my floorboards would actually be trembling. It quickly became clear that I wanted to get out of that situation and so shortly before my lease was up, I decided that I had to be a little more meticulous about how to find the next apartment to make sure that it didn't have these kinds of problems.

I just started thinking about how to use some of my reporting skills to do that. I ended up looking at city databases to look up complaints. I've found, for example, places where you could look up flood risk, just to make sure I wasn't going to move anywhere that had high flood risk. I found something called the bedbug registry, just to make sure that any building I looked at hadn't had recent complaints about bedbugs, stuff like that.

Brian Lehrer: These are city databases that anybody can access?

Lisa Song: Yes. At the time that I was using those databases, I had to go to the original databases themselves on the New York City government websites. They're a little bit clunky and can be a little bit hard to use with not a very intuitive user interface. Since then, however, there is a group called JustFix that has created a website called, Who owns What. In my article, I link to that Who owns What database and it basically puts all of that city info in a really easy-to-use interface. You can type in the address of a building and from there easily see the types of complaints that tenants have filed against the building.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's really cool. I see that that's the first tip that you give in your article, start with Who owns What. The next one is really pretty basic. You don't have to be an investigative reporter to think to do this, but you wrote, "Don't forget to Google." What search terms should people enter into their Google search bar?

Lisa Song: I think it's always helpful to search for the management company of the building, as well as the name of the landlord. You can get the name of the landlord and management company from Who owns What. A big part of what they do is they try to demystify who are the actual owners of the building. Once you get those names, you can Google them. Sometimes you'll be able to find Yelp reviews or other kinds of reviews where prior tenants have talked about the landlord or management company.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Naomi in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Lisa Song from ProPublica. Hi, Naomi.

Naomi: Hi, Brian. Hi, Lisa. I've lived in my place for four years now and it's just become apparent that there's a hoarder right down the hall from me and his mental condition is getting worse. He now props his door open and the smell coming out of his apartment is like an overflowing toilet. I'm not looking for a cure for this because I already complained. The housing services have come in. My question is asking around, the super knew about this guy but he wasn't as bad, but everybody knew that he was a hoarder. How can I find that out?

Lisa Song: Gosh, that's hard. I think the most relevant tip I have is-- It's too late now, unfortunately, but when you're looking at new apartments you might want to move into, to get to the viewing a little bit early and try to talk to other tenants in the building before you move in. I have done that for apartments. My most recent apartment, when I was looking at it, I got to the building 20 minutes early and a couple tenants came out to take out the trash that morning.

I immediately talked to them and said, "Look, I'm looking at your building. I'm thinking about moving in. What is it like to live there? Do you have any problems?" I think the most important thing you can do is talk to other residents of the building before you move in because they're the only ones who will understand the quirks and weird things about living there that you probably won't find anywhere else.

Brian Lehrer: That's such a obvious, but something probably a lot of people don't actually think of or stop to do piece of advice. Do you have anything for, and I realize you're generally an environmental reporter, not a housing reporter, but do you have any advice for Naomi now that she's in this situation on how you deal with somebody? What can be done about somebody who is as she describes?

Lisa Song: Gosh, I don't know. I wonder if there are mental health services from the city that you could call? It sounds like a potentially dangerous situation for the tenant and others in the building.

Brian Lehrer: For the tenant, it's so hard because especially with all we know in recent years, you don't want to call the cops on somebody with mental health problems or even maybe the housing and buildings department, but by the same token, it's affecting other tenants the way it is. All right. We don't have an answer for that, Naomi. Thank you.

Lisa Song: Yes. Sorry about that. I hope they can get some professional help.

Brian Lehrer: At least a tip there for you or anybody else to find out more from neighbors in the building before you rent somewhere. Many apartments are eligible for market-rate rents, but many are supposed to be rent stabilized, obviously. How can you know if a landlord is trying to pass off a higher legal rent to you than they're actually supposed to charge?

Lisa Song: When you are apartment hunting, it's a little bit harder, but I do link to some websites run by the city that tells you what are the general guidelines to look for that will tell you whether the apartment should be rent-stabilized. There are also some general rules where you can look up what buildings should have at least one rent-stabilized unit.

Once you have moved into a place, if your landlord is telling you it is a market rate apartment, but you suspect the landlord may be lying, then there are some other resources I link to where you can request a rent history for your apartment unit and that will tell you whether the unit actually is rent stabilized or not.

Brian Lehrer: I think that happens a lot, by the way, that rent-stabilized units try to get passed off as market rate.

Lisa Song: It is unfortunately a pattern. There have been some great reporting about that happening.

Brian Lehrer: One of my colleagues writes to me, 311 is a good resource to see building violations. Can it be that general? You call 311 and you say, "Oh, I'm thinking of renting an apartment at so and so address. Can you tell me about violations there?"

Lisa Song: I've never tried calling 311 to ask about violations at a specific building, but the Who Owns What website collects all of the 311 calls. If you go to Who Owns What, you will find a record of all the 311 complaints made about the building.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle in Los Angeles, but who used to live in New York? Michelle, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Michelle: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I lived in New York for about four years and had a crazy time with apartments between pest, bad neighbors, theft. I was also involved in a scam with a broker and so I just wanted to recommend to your listeners a website specifically called the Ripoff Report where if I had checked this before I had signed the lease, this never would've happened. It's like Yelp specifically for scammers and egregiously bad landlords and management companies.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa.

Lisa Song: That's cool. I've never heard of that. I don't really go into depth about potentially bad brokers in my story. I appreciate that tip. I was not aware of that website.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle, thank you very much. The Ripoff Report. Here's a broker-related story, I think, from Marsha in Manhattan. Marsha, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Marsha: Good morning. I'm a broker. I have a friend out in Santa Fe who's looking for a place for her son in Brighton Beach, so I said I'd do the footwork and not charge her a fee. She found this place. I went out there, got some roaches and stuff, but it's New York. I spoke with the listing agent or broker and he says he doesn't co-broke because I said, ''I want you to only charge her a month rather than 50% of your rent.'' He said, ''I don't co-broke.'' He said, ''Well, if she wants it, she needs to put a deposit down.'' I said, ''Well, that's illegal,'' He went silent.

Then he said, ''Okay.'' Now, my friend has been trying to reach him. He says that he has other applicants that they're trying to review and he'll get back to her, but I feel she's going to lose it. I feel I might have srewed things up trying to get her commission lowered. I went on Aris and she went on some other sites and found that they had a history of bed bugs. I tried to call the owner and nobody's gotten back to me. I don't want to lead her to a place that's going to be a really bad news thing, but her son doesn't care about stuff like this but is it not true that it's illegal to ask her a deposit upfront?

Lisa Song: I think there's some confusion about what might count as a deposit. When you secure the apartment, you can be asked to pay a security deposit and a one month's--

Marsha: This is different. That's actually because I do rentals all the, not all the time anymore and if they don't co-broke it-- I don't think he's the member of [unintelligible 00:14:19] so how can that exist? I don't know if that's very ignorant, I'm naive.

Lisa Song: I'm not super on top of all of the rules, but I had not heard of that before. I had not heard of the idea of-- There's an application fee that's different, but it's not supposed to be high. It's limited.

Brian Lehrer: Marsha, it sounds you're what we might call an honest broker, but that not everybody in your profession is. Do you have any tips for listeners dealing with brokers as they're looking for apartments because obviously, a broker has a vested interest in just making that match and maybe not always acting in the renter's interest, maybe glossing over some of the things that might be problems with the apartment so that they can get their fee and move on?

Marsha: I think just a reputation. I work for a company that has let people go who were making a ton of money for the company just because they did unethical things. I think you just have to find someone that you know the reputation and find out to get everything up front, have everything understood so that you have the commission understood right away. I tend to be way too easy. I give in right away to, just give me a month [unintelligible 00:15:40].

Brian Lehrer: Marsha, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for your story and what sounds like your good heart. Do brokers come up in your article, Lisa?

Lisa Song: A little bit, but not too much. In my experience, I've dealt with brokers by just following my gut. I didn't put this in the article, but when I was apartment hunting, sometimes I'd end up with a broker who maybe seemed too eager or tried to pressure me to say yes to an apartment when I had reservations about it, then I would just walk away. That would be my advice to people as well or sometimes I'd end up with a broker where we agreed to see one apartment.

By the time I show up, they'll tell me actually I gave you the wrong address. The actual apartment is two blocks down that way. Then it would be a much crappier apartment than the one I had signed up to to view. In that case as well, I would trust my gut and just say, "No, I'm not going to deal with you anymore."

Brian Lehrer: With Lisa song from ProPublica who has an article, How to Investigate your Next New York Apartment like a Reporter. Lisa, we had that caller before, who has the problem with a hoarder who smells really badly down the hall from her. I think Lorenzo in New Rochelle might have some advice for her. Lorenzo, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Lorenzo: Hi, Brian. A big fan. We run a company called Free Hoarder Home Cleanup, Free Home Cleanup and we often keep databases. We keep a database on the hoarders and signs to identify hoarders and what to do. It's not easy to remove a hoarder, obviously if you're in an individual living in an apartment or a home and obviously it's not an ideal outcome because these individuals usually don't have any money left and you don't want them to be homeless, but what they cause is bug infestations. Beyond the smell, they cause water damage, they cause significant damage to the properties.

Ideally if somebody wanted to find out what to do or what signs there are, it's actually pretty straightforward. Obviously I've been doing it for years so you can identify them and ideally get them help because these people don't want to leave. They don't want help and usually we intervene with the assistance of the city as well as lawyers and real estate agents and sometimes family because family's been trying for years to get these people removed.

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting service. How can people get in touch?

Lorenzo: You can look at the website, freehomecleanup.com or freehoarderhomecleanup.com, or you can call it 917-881-5613. If we can't directly help, I can send them to resources that can.

Brian Lehrer: Lorenzo, thank you so much for that. Naomi in Brooklyn, I hope you're still listening. Now, here's another caller who wants to answer another unanswered question from a previous caller? This one about what kinds of deposits you can be asked for as you're trying to rent an apartment. Shaw in Brooklyn who says he's a former broker. Shaw, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Shaw: Hi, Brian. Hi, Lisa. Thank you both for your work. I let my license expire in July, 2020 because it was during the pandemic, but I had had it for four years. I don't know exactly what the law is right now, but it was plainly obvious and taught to me that this whole thing about if you want the apartment right now, just give me this small deposit and will take it off the market. We'll stop showing it.

What that does is it preys upon people's desperation and rush to find a place because it's completely insane trying to find an apartment in New York City. You give them, I don't know, $500, $300, maybe even $800 depending on the rent of the apartment and then they will immediately give you the lease, et cetera but let me tell you something. If you change your mind, you will fight tooth and nail to get that back. The rule of thumb, the golden rule is never ever hand over money until you've signed a lease.

Brian Lehrer: Good tip. It's illegal to ask you to do that is part of your point, right?

Shaw: Yes, it is. It's a practice that totally happens because that's pretty much unenforceable because you want the apartment, so you're getting what you want, but if you wind up changing your mind or if it winds up being this hell hole, then you're stuck with it.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting, Shaw. Thank you very much for that. Michelle in Queens. You're on WNYC. Hi, Michelle. Michelle, are you there?

Michelle: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle, once. Hi.

Michelle: Hello?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you.

Michelle: Okay. I know this is not a popular topic, but I just wanted to say on behalf of landlords out there, there are some small middle-class landlords who buy 8 to 10 unit apartments or less, and they're lied to about the rent history also so that they think that they're buying apartments that have been legitimately taken out of rent stabilization.

Even if you do due diligence, it's many times really difficult to get the real rent history and so many, many landlords get screwed.

I know that landlords are not popular, but there are people who are legitimately trying to do a good job. The problem is that once a landlord has an apartment that's a problem, it starts to affect the entire building.

Brian Lehrer: Well, I'll say that certainly in our audience, small landlords are much more popular than let's say private equity firms that buy up hundreds and hundreds of properties and-

Michelle: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -then try to force people to move out and all that stuff. Lisa, that's an interesting overlap between the small landlords who also try to get information sometimes unsuccessfully, Michelle says before they buy a property and the renters who your article is about.

Lisa Song: Yes. One of the interesting things I found while researching this article was that when renters are trying to screen apartment buildings, it is actually easier to get a sense of how good the landlord is if they are a smaller landlord. One of the reasons is because in the Who Owns What complaint database, there's an overall number that tells you how many complaints on average have been filed against all the buildings belonging to a single landlord. What the folks behind Who Owns What told me is that that number tends to be more accurate when it comes to smaller landlords. That is also a vote of confidence in being able to tell the quality of the landlord when you are a tenant.

Brian Lehrer: As far as the landlord's plight that Michelle is describing, trying to research the rent history and other things about buildings that they're trying to buy.

Lisa Song: I would say, gosh, I don't have any specific advice on that, but I would think that if you're a small landlord, you should be able to go to many of the same resources that I have pointed out that are available to tenants. If you explain what you're looking for, you are looking for the same info that the tenants are looking for.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle, I hope that's helpful. Thank you for sharing your story. We really appreciate it. I think that's going to be helpful to other people out there. Before you go, since I promoted it at the top of the segment, you want to tell us briefly the story of your friend who moved into an apartment and then discovered raccoons in the ceiling?

Lisa Song: Yes. This was Sophie Chu who's one of ProPublica's data reporters. She moved into an apartment with a roommate and there were raccoons in the ceiling. At first, it was okay, but after a while, the noise just became unbearable. We actually include in the story an audio recording of what the raccoons sounded like, and it's just nails on chalkboard. It got so bad that they ended up having to move out. Thank goodness, Sophie was lucky in that her roommate convinced the landlord to let them move out quickly and they were able to break their lease. They didn't have to stay until their lease expired.

Brian Lehrer: Lisa Song who usually writes about climate and the environment for ProPublica, but her new article is called How to Investigate your Next New York Apartment Like a Reporter. You know we could have done this until like 4:35 o'clock this afternoon based on the number of people who are calling in. Come back some time. Okay?

Lisa Song: Okay.

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