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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC. Now, a segment for all of you new or expecting parents out there, and anyone else interested in the names that we're attracted to at different times in our country, to name our children. We're going to discuss baby names. How did you decide what to name your kid and what did your kid decide to name their kid, if you're a grandparent?

With me now is Laura Wattenberg, author of The Baby Name Wizard, Revised 4th Edition: A Magical Method for Finding the Perfect Name for Your Baby, and the founder of Namerology.com. You may have heard her on NPR's Life Kit in the spring of last year when she talked about how to narrow down a baby names list. Laura, welcome to WNYC.

Laura Wattenberg: Thanks, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners who are new or expectant parents, we can take some phone calls in this segment. What baby names are, or were, high on your list, and why? What name did you ultimately decide on, if you have decided? Do you think whatever names you're choosing for your kids are reflective of the times we live in, in some respect, or are they just old family names? Are they just something you like the sound of, how it rolls off your tongue? 212-433-WNYC.

Who out there right now is expecting a baby? We're going to give first choice here on the phones. First dibs to anybody right now, who's an expectant mom or dad? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, but anyone may call and talk to Laura Wattenberg. Laura, you've been a guest on NPR dating back to at least 2008, when you were interviewed about the trend of androgynous names. What's the biggest trend these days, that reflects our times, in some ways?

Laura Wattenberg: I think we're entering a third phase of a baby name revolution, that has completely changed the naming enterprise in America, away from a set of traditional names, choosing from what is typical to parents really putting a lot of pressure on themselves to choose something fresh and unconventional, and increasingly something that will surprise people. It's almost become a branding exercise.

Brian Lehrer: For example?

Laura Wattenberg: A typical new name, today-- I'll give you Mazikeen. It means demon, and it's the name of a demonic character on the TV series Lucifer. This represents non-traditional sources, sounds, and even letters. Parents are looking for that high scrabble value letters, like Z and X, to make an impact. They don't care as much about where they find the name.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Yet, the most common baby names for 2021-- I'm looking at the list. Boys names. Liam, Noah, Oliver, Elijah, and James. Very old school names, for the most part. Top five baby names for girls, 2021. Olivia, Emma, Charlotte, Amelia, and Ava. Nothing new under the sun there, right?

Laura Wattenberg: Well, the Top 10 list is interesting that way. It gives an illusion that's either comforting or boring, depending on a person's perspective, but traditional-minded parents are the only ones who choose the same names as one another. They're choosing from a relatively small pool of names that are classic, but also fashionable, and choosing a traditional spelling is part of that style.

Meanwhile, the contemporary creative namers are all over the place, can't agree, so their names never show up in the Top 10, but it turns out, that traditional founding Top 10 represents an ever-shrinking portion of the populace. In fact, only 1 in 14 American babies now receives a Top 10 name.

Brian Lehrer: Ah, interesting. All right. Let's see. Liz in Newton, New Jersey, has a family conflict baby naming story, I think. Liz, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Liz: Hi. How are you? Glad to be on your show.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on.

Liz: Yes. I had my kids late in life, and was well-read. My first son I named after Hunter Predd from Terry Brooks' Sword of Shannara Series. I really liked the character. I named my first son Hunter, and my second son-- I named him Orion, after Orion's Belt, because I'm also into nature, and I'm a hunter, so I wanted two hunters, and my family gave me all this grief, "Oh, those aren't Black names, why are you calling them that? People won't know how to spell that," all kinds of stupid stuff, but I went forward with it anyway.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, thank you very much. Amanda, in West Orange, you're on WNYC, and you're expecting, Amanda, right?

Amanda: I am. I'm nine weeks, so very early.

Brian Lehrer: I see you already know what sex it's going to be.

Amanda: Yes, I know it's a boy. We named our daughter Zinnia, and it's the perfect name for her. She is so colorful and bright. I would love to stick with something in the nature family, but we're having the worst time trying to figure something out. A lot of our friends already have nature-based names, so we feel really guilty taking their names.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, maybe you can help Amanda out. Tweet @BrianLehrer and recommend a name for a boy that is something that exists in nature, just like Zinnia. That's the flower that you named your daughter after, right?

Amanda: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Very interesting. What names have you been tossing around? Any examples?

Amanda: Well, it's rough, because so many of them are, as I mentioned, taken. I love River, but that's somebody in her school, that she's friends with. I love Oakley. That's another friend of hers. There's so many cute little nature names, but we're really struggling. We took a long time to name her. She was--

Brian Lehrer: My producer Mary just came up with a possibility for you. You like River. Mary says, "How about Skye? S-K-Y-E."

Amanda: That's beautiful. I like that.

Brian Lehrer: There you go. If you use our producer's name for your baby, you have to call us back at some point and tell us, and we'll celebrate on the air.

Amanda: All right.

Brian Lehrer: All right, Amanda, thank you very much. All right, who else has a name to recommend for Amanda, with what she's looking for? Tweet it @BrianLehrer. Laura, what do you think about those couple of stories?

Laura Wattenberg: Well, the nature names are interesting, because traditionally, we've given over much of nature to girls' names. If you look at words we turn into names, girls' names are more likely to reflect colors, flowers, and jewels. Boys names, especially today, are more about, honestly, force and violence. There's a lot of boys named Riot and Chaos now. Finding a name that sounds natural, and perhaps gentle, but distinctly masculine, is something a lot of parents struggle with.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I actually know somebody who recently gave their baby the middle name Chaos, and I'm like, "What are you thinking?" But they were thinking something.

Laura Wattenberg: There's even little boys named Havoc and Mayhem now. Boys names are pushing more and more aggressive, every year.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Tess, in Brooklyn. Brand new mom. Hi Tess, you're on WNYC.

Tess: Hi, Brian. Long time, first time. Pretty exciting moment to be calling in about this kid. We have named our baby Albie, because-- He might start screaming in a second.

Brian Lehrer: We just made his radio debut right now.

Tess: When we first found out that we were pregnant, I got one of these apps that tracks their development from the embryonic stage onward. They had me put in a nickname, and I, without thinking, put in Sir Albert Wrinkles, which very quickly got shortened to Sir Albert, and then to just Albie. I put that in not knowing the sex of the baby, and also never thinking that I would name my baby Albert, which we didn't, but Albie just stuck.

We came up with a lot of other names, but Albie was what came outward. We were just like, "Oh, no, he's still Albie."

Brian Lehrer: That is so cute. Tess, thank you very much. Albie, have a great life. Call us when you're 18, or you can call us before that. We're getting some suggestions for the earlier caller of nature names, for the boy she's expecting. Somebody proposes Oak, somebody else proposes Lumen, which is a measure of light. Someone else proposes Wood, someone else proposes Basil. Isn't that great that people are showing up with all these nature names, Laura?

Laura Wattenberg: Everyone has opinions. Everyone has ideas. One of the beautiful things about baby names is they connect to every single person in every single part of our society. Everything has a name.

Brian Lehrer: We're hearing distress though, I think, from our callers. In your opinion, has naming kids always been so stressful and overwhelming, or is that a product of modernity?

Laura Wattenberg: It is absolutely the new naming era. I think of it like an office that has moved from a strict dress code to an anything goes dress code. When everyone was wearing a suit, you didn't have to worry about what signal you were sending by wearing a suit to the office. Now if you are wearing a suit and somebody else is in a t-shirt and jeans, you are sending a message. Every name ends up meaning more. Parents worry more about the signals they're sending.

Brian Lehrer: There we leave it, with Laura Wattenberg, author of The Baby Name Wizard: A Magical Method for Finding the Perfect Name for Your Baby, and founder of Namerology.com. So interesting to hear how people are reflecting the times with the baby names they're considering. Laura, thanks for being our guide.

Laura Wattenberg: Thanks, Brian.

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