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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. As Michael was just describing in the news, football fans are united and support of Damar Hamlin, the 24-year-old Buffalo Bills safety who went into cardiac arrest in the game against the Cincinnati Bengals on Monday night. He collapsed just after rising from a tackle. He tackled the other guy but got this injury though we don't know exactly why this happened physiologically.

Medical personnel rushed onto the field and performed CPR, restarting Hamlin's heart as players from both teams looked on in horror. Damar Hamlin remains in critical condition. While this injury is unique this truly terrifying medical emergency is shining a light once again on the NFL's perennial injury crisis. I think it's fair to call it a perennial, an ongoing, a permanent injury crisis.

It is a violent game, and even when the hits aren't this disastrous, injuries are an ordinary occurrence. Now, as America's favorite spectator sport maybe the hits add to football's appeal. Have we, as spectators, become just numb to the site of snapping injuries on the field, or even worse, are they part of the appeal? What should come next for the NFL?

Why do we even have this sport as something mainstream that has so much more routine bone-crunching violence and throwing people to the ground as what you're supposed to do than other sports?

Former longtime New York Times columnist, William C. Rhoden joins us now to talk about the state of football in 2023, and talk about these questions. Bill is now a columnist for Andscape, formerly known as The Undefeated. He also wrote two important books, Forty Million Dollar Slave; the Rise and Fall and Redemption of the Black Athlete, and Third and a Mile: The Trials and Triumph of the Black Quarterback. Hi, Bill. Always good to have you to talk sports and society but I'm so sad it's under these circumstances this time, but welcome back to WNYC.

William C. Rhoden: Thanks, Brian. A happy new year, and it's always a pleasure to talk to you. This is a bummer but I always look forward to having an intelligent discussion about something like this, even if it's tragic.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Were you watching the game live? What were you thinking or feeling if so as Hamlin collapsed?

William C. Rhoden: I was actually in Baltimore. I've been writing in this series of pieces about Lamar Jackson who's the Ravens quarterback who's missed four games and is holding out for a fully guaranteed contract precisely because of this kind of nonsense. "Putting my bean on the line, my physical safety on the line, you get the best out of me. When I ask for a guaranteed contract, you say no."

I just finished filing the column, and I'm looking at the Monday night game. I guess where I'm going to go with this, Brian, is I spent the last 72 hours really doing some soul-searching and examining my own desensitivity to this stuff because I've been watching it for so long and we talked about it so long and it's almost that these things-- and you hit it, Brian. You referred to it as numbing.

I realized that I had become really desensitized because you see every single game, week after week, play after play, guys getting hurt, the players kneeling around, some walk off under their own power, some get helped off, some get carted off. Then we're back to the action. I was looking at this game and I saw the guy circle around and the sound was down, and I saw one commercial, then two commercials. Now, the third commercial, I said, "Man, this is something."

One of the things I always thought, Brian, is what would happen if a player died on the field in prime time? We talk about the numbing and the violence. For most of us, it's abstract. It's like cartoon violence. How does it affect our fantasy team? How does it affect the point spread. Only until something like this happens in prime time and it's thrown in front of you that you really have to do some soul search in terms of what are we watching? Why are we watching? What are we doing? That's what I'm wrestling with now is just trying to get back to connecting with my own desensitized soul and figuring out, "Man, are you complicit in this?"

Brian Lehrer: I'll be candid and transparent and say I do watch football sometimes. I'm a Jets fan, and when the Jets are eliminated, which is every year, then I follow the other New York teams, the Giants and the Bills. I like the strategies of the game. I like the different kinds of plays. I like the narrative arc of football. Then I do cringe at the violence, at the hits, even when nobody gets injured.

I have a fairly routine reaction like, "Ah, I'm watching this game where the object of the game, if you're on defense, is to throw other people to the ground." The other sports that I like to watch are not like that. Now that this happened, it makes me wrestle with the same thing you are wrestling with, and think, "Why is this even a major sport? How did it get to this point? Why did this develop where something that has this so much routine violence, routine risk of injury, even if nobody's gone into cardiac arrest because of a hit before, how did this get to be the biggest sport in America spectator-wise?"

William C. Rhoden: You ask that. I was trying to think of Roosevelt. When did it get the crossroads? I know it probably had to do with television. People look back to the sudden death game between Baltimore and the Giants. I think it was 1958 when the game was televised. Great game, goes into sudden death, Baltimore wins and people look at that moment as the rise.

I also add in the steady influx of Black athletes into the game when all of a sudden you've got speed and verticality and a certain style things that really had not been present in the game before, wide opens. Baseball, of course, has always just been baseball. It's just been pastoral and nice but there was not the violence. You were saying that you look away but I think you mentioned, in your introduction, the subject that's also the fascination, is that where do you see this specialized violence that's unharnessed where people this hard hit and they show it over and over again.

On a key play, the ball is jarred loose. You're right, as you were saying. The skill is fine and all that but what people like about this is the rock-them sock-them nature because, unless you're watching hockey-- I was teasing my my nephews who are big soccer fans, and I was watching the World Cup. I said, "Kevin, man, there's just not enough violence." There's not enough time for commercial and there's not enough rock-them sock-them hitting in this to appeal to us.

I guess, the last thing I'd say, Brian, when we're talking about this morality, I was listening to another show, and it was a political show, and they were asking in light of the George Santos things, what does it take for a politician to lose their career? What does it take? We're in this era of shamelessness where shamelessness wins. Shamelessness is the winning formula because shamelessness is clicks, shamelessness is attention.

I think the same thing in football. What would it take to unplug football? I'm really at a loss, man. I'm really at a loss. I just think that's, unfortunately, where we are with this.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your phone calls on any aspects of this. If you do watch football, is the violence, the hard-hitting part of the appeal, or is it something that you think you've just become numb to because you like the other parts of the game or anything else you want to say? What should change now? Should we abolish football? I think I mentioned, on the air, maybe I only told my producers off the air yesterday. Listeners, I attended a debate a few years ago. I think it was an intelligent square debate. One of those that was explicitly on the question, should college football be abolished? Malcolm Gladwell was among those because he had written about it, arguing college football should be abolished and  the pros is different because people are grownups, and they're getting paid, and they're making their choices and taking their risks.

College football was more abusive in that theory though there were people arguing the other side. The question of football abolition is not something that's never come up. That was a mainstream intelligence square debate with Matt, Malcolm Gladwell, and others. Listeners, what do you think should be done, and anything else you want to say? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, with Bill Rhoden, former New York Times sports columnist, and with the Undefeated, which is now called Andscape. Contradictions in the rules, Bill.

The way they smashed into each other in that play is considered a clean play, but one of the most common penalties in football is holding, which is just trying to hold somebody back from getting where they want to go without tackling them. I never understood that.

William C. Rhoden: Well, yes, you mentioned that. That was a great distinction. Holding is codified in the rule books. In other words, when you're an offensive lineman, or a defensive back, or defensive player, and you were reaching out and you're holding somebody to impede their-- If you're a lineman and you're holding the defensive lineman to stop them from making a tackle or whatever, that's in the rulebook holding.

The collision, as we had mentioned, collisions are part and parcel of the essence of the game. Smashing into someone. That play, we had Tee Higgins smashing into Damar Hamlin, that was basically a "clean play" because you had an offensive player who caught a pass and is now trying to break tackles, and there is a defender, Hamlin, in front of him, and he's simply trying to go through him.

There is no holding, there is no-- If you outlaw that, Brian, you outlaw football. If Hamlin, for example, was covering Tee Higgins from the line as Higgins was going downfield and they passed the 5-yard mark and he reaches out and grabs his jersey or grabs him, he would get flagged for that, because that's holding, but after the catch is made, you're fair game. You're in front of me, you're in front of Jim Brown, and Jim Brown is going to try to-

Brian Lehrer: Run through you.

William C. Rhoden: -run through you. You see how excited I get. You know what I'm saying? That's the problem. That's the essence of the game. It is funny, I was having this conversation with a friend of mine who played with the Dallas Cowboys for about 9 years. He was bemoaning the fact, as most older players do, that the game has gotten soft because of all the rules that are put in place to protect players and to make the game safer.

Typically, the older generation is saying, "Oh man, in my gen, these guys aren't even playing football." In the Pro Bowl this year, instead of having a All-Star game of tackling, it's going to be flag football.

Brian Lehrer: Really?

William C. Rhoden: Let me know if you go see that.

Brian Lehrer: They were going to do that anyway?

William C. Rhoden: Oh, yes, this was way before. The complaint was that you could have a baseball All-Star game and you could have an All-Star game that's pretty competitive because it's pitching and that. You could have a basketball All-Star game because you could do that. It's more like hockey and football, where the essence of it is hard-hitting, it's like, "Well, can you really do that in an exhibition game?" Football experiment, let's just-

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

William C. Rhoden: -play flag football.

Brian Lehrer: Flag football, for people who don't know, kids play it in youth leagues, where the play ends when, I guess, you grab up like a handkerchief out of the guy with the ball's pocket.

William C. Rhoden: They have these two stripes on the side like long plastic things that are held on by Velcro.

Brian Lehrer: Those are the flags.

William C. Rhoden: Yes, and you just--

Brian Lehrer: You don't tackle. Especially in light of this, and I didn't know about that until you just said it, I think that's going to be very interesting to see if people can respond to the NFL All-Star game being flag football and whether there are some reforms that could be inspired by that. Katie in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Katie.

Katie: Hi, Brian. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good, thank you.

Katie: Thanks for taking my call. Thank you for doing this segment. I'm from Buffalo, and I wanted to speak to this question of being a ethically ambivalent fan. It's very hard. I grew up watching it every Sunday. September to January, we'd watch the Bills, we'd get La Nova pizza and wings. After church, we'd watch together. Both my parents have passed away now. I'm a parent. I'm not in the church anymore.

Honestly, one of the only things I can do with my daughter that conveys what it was like for me growing up and some of the good parts of spending time with her grandparents who she never met, is watching the Bills together. We go over to our friend's apartment, they're also from Buffalo, and they make wings, and it's been a huge part of her childhood. She was there, she's 12, and we were all watching, and it was devastating.

I posted about it on Facebook and a friend wrote, "This is an unethical sport." Basically like, "What are you expecting?" I boycotted during the Kaepernick years, and then I came back to it because of this feeling of connection and camaraderie that I get from watching it. I would say, in terms of watching style, I'm like you, Brian. I wimp and I look away, and I basically want to see the athleticism of the offense, and am always in denial about what it takes to be on the defense, is what I would say.

I would also just want to mark the change over time. I remember I was at the game in Cleveland when Dan Beebe bounced on his head over and over, and the network showed it actually, over and over, and there's just been this huge shift in how the league treats injuries and how the networks treat injuries. Also, Goodell should resign and the NFL should pay taxes. That's my last comment. [laughs] Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Roger Goodell, the NFL commissioner. Maria in the Flatiron District, also originally from Buffalo. Hi, Maria, you're on WNYC.

Maria: Hi, guys. Yes, from Buffalo. These guys have to know what they're getting into. I want to know, this is a very pedestrian question, but what is the fine print or is it right out there in their contract, if you get a severe injury, what is the minutiae surrounding the-- If they get an injury, they just go on the injuries list or if this guy is really in trouble, what happens? They know they're in the line of fires, so to speak. What's in their contracts? What are their agents doing putting them into this? They know what they're getting into.

Brian Lehrer: Do you know, Bill?

William C. Rhoden: I think that what's built in the two-year contract, there's certain medical provisions that you're insured, number one, you are insured, but you raise a quick question because the-- This has been a soapbox of mine. The NFL is the only major league along with, when you look at baseball, the NBA, and hockey, whose players do not receive guaranteed contracts, and it's probably the most violent sport of all of them.

In a way of answering the listener's question, yes, the players do have insurance, but I think that, since the league prints money, it should make sure these players are taken care of forever. I think their contracts should be guaranteed. I think you got to do away with this stuff being able to cut a player in the middle of the week.

Brian Lehrer: When you say it's not a guaranteed contract, you mean like, in baseball, we've all heard Aaron Judge just signed a nine-year contract with the Yankees. If he gets injured after three years, the Yankees still have to pay him for all nine years, but that's not the case for football players?

William C. Rhoden: No, football players, you hear all these things that somebody signs a $150 million contract for X years, $10 million guaranteed. That means, if they cut them, if they get hurt, almost at any point, they don't have to pay the rest of that contract, and that's unlike the NBA and Major League Baseball, which have very strong unions, and those contracts are guaranteed. I maintain that the NFL is the most grueling sport of them all, and those contracts should be paid. I was speaking to an NFL executive the other day, and they oppose it because almost the essence of it is that you want athletes hungry. You want that uncertainty. You want that knowing that we use next man up, that you are replaceable, and that you can be replaced at any moment, and  that desperation that it takes to play that game. I'm not answering her question specifically. There is insurance built in, but the NFL does not guarantee your livelihood, and it should.

Brian Lehrer: There are more injuries than other sports, right? Some of the sports media that I consumed yesterday after this included people saying, "Well, this happens in other sports too, grievous injuries." Danish soccer player, Christian Eriksen, in a match for his country, about 18 months ago, went into cardiac arrest and collapsed and then was resuscitated, and the game went on.

Somebody just pointed out to me, one of my colleagues, a member of the Detroit Lions in the NFL, did actually have a heart attack and died during a game, and the game went on.

William C. Rhoden: 1971, Chuck Hughes.

Brian Lehrer: I heard a story yesterday of somebody who died in a little league game, a baseball kid. I feel like it's just more routine in football.

William C. Rhoden: Yes. What we're talking about here, Brian, you're right, the big moments like this, like a player collapsing, that's somewhat rare of a Chuck Hughes who died in 1971. The issue was football is to play to play. Just routine vitals, what players have their careers die on every other play. When I say die, I mean a running back who suddenly tears his ACL who is no longer the same player anymore, and you're done. You know what I'm saying?

You look at this young man, Damar Hamlin, is the salt-of-the-earth type of player who makes the NFL. He's a young player. He's not even vested yet. He's in his third year, sixth-round draft pick, still trying to make his way. These are the kind of players that NFL is built on, these young hungry players who are just trying to make it. Not the Trevor Lawrence's not the Tom Brady.

Brian Lehrer: The great stars.

William C. Rhoden: Yes. Just the salt-of-the-earth type of people who are trying to make it. His mother's at the game because this is a dream of his to play Pop Warner then play high school and then go to Pick-N-Play, and you're a low-round draft, pick your six, but man, here you are. He's the next man up because he's playing because the star player in front of him got hurt in week two of the season, and he's living his dream. Everything's great and wonderful until it's not. I think that's what we're talking about, not the exception, but the routine.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take one more call. It's going to take us over our scheduled time, but I think it's worth it because Patti in Greenville, South Carolina, has a personal experience that she wants to share. Patti, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Patti: Thank you, Brian. It's such a pleasure to be here. I've been listening for a long time. This subject really does hit close to home for me as I grew up in a sports environment in Canton, Ohio, and we all know what exists in Canton, Ohio, as it relates to this particular sport.

Brian Lehrer: The NFL Hall of Fame, for people who don't know.

Patti: Yes, exactly. Thank you. My father was a former collegiate football player as well as my uncle. My father, unfortunately, didn't make it past his college career because of a number of concussions that he had, and this is back in the '50s in the '60s. Our family had to live and watch his demise, that we didn't know at the time, until after his death, that he died of Stage IV CTE. That was 12 years ago that he had passed and during that time--

Brian Lehrer: Brain injury CTE.

Patti: Correct. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, of which the NIH had just released, in October of last year, a conclusion that CTE is caused by repetitive traumatic brain injuries. Now, this applies to many, many sports. I'm a lover of sports. I've been an athlete all my life and I'd love to watch them because this goes back to the beginning of time. This goes back to the Romans and the gladiators and how people communed around athleticism and having the thrill of it all, but where it now holds is the culpability knowledge of the leagues and the owners that they have information now that just needs to keep players safe.

If that means changing the game to keep them safe, you change the game. You can't build a better mousetrap with a better helmet, it's what has to be done to take the exception of these athletes that are performing at such a high level that we all admire, and we all love to watch, but they need to be safe, and it's a conversation that you're holding here.

Brian Lehrer: I'm sorry about your father. Is there a way to make it safe, tackle football?

Patti: Tackle football, yes. The less contact, the less opportunity for risk. My uncle who also played college sports on the same team that my dad did, he went to a national game, he has had no sense of impact of the sustaining injuries to that level, although he's had the physical injuries, shoulders, knees, as we know, there are certain injuries that will remove a player because of damage, but the impact that we don't see, still, I think, is being lost in all the leagues of what is important for players' safety.

Brian Lehrer: The chronic accumulation of hits. Patti, thank you very much for sharing. Bill, we have one minute left. What is the solution? Is there such a thing as ethical NFL football?

William C. Rhoden: Brian, flag football. Trust me, if they transform this into flag football, what they do with the Pro Bowl, we will not be having a discussion in two years. The owners will pull out, the fans will stop going because fans want to see the violence. There is no way short of making this flag football. There is no way to make the sport safer. That's what we love about it. That's like asking, how do you make politics not dirty? It's one of those ageless questions without a solution.

I just think that you have to look at yourself in the mirror, look your conscious in the mirror, and you just embrace it. You said, "You know what? I like it. I like the ritual. I like the hitting, the stride, or whatever. I like the spectacle, and I'm going to keep going." You have to make peace with that or you just stay away. It is like nicotine and cigarettes. Too many people cannot stay away.

Brian Lehrer: Bill Rhoden, longtime New York Times sports columnist, now with Andscape, author of the books Third and a Mile: The Trials and Triumphs of the Black Quarterback, and Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete. Thank you for joining us for this discussion, Bill. I appreciate it.

William C. Rhoden: Brian, it's always a pleasure.

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