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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. New York City delivery workers, as we talked about a little bit last hour, secured a victory on Sunday afternoon in a press conference with the commissioner of the city's Department of Consumer and Worker Protection. Leaders and members of the Labor Group Los Deliveristas Unidos, that's the Delivery Workers United.

Mayor Adams announced that app-based delivery workers will receive a raise that takes their operating expenses more into account. The move makes New York City the first major city in the country to implement pay requirements for delivery workers. We heard a critique of this is not as good as it should have been from New York City Comptroller Brad Lander last hour, but let's take a closer look at what they did win and the degree to which some leaders here are satisfied or not.

Joining us now to get into the nitty-gritty of the deal are Claudia Irizarry Aponte, a reporter covering labor and work for the news organization The City, and Ligia Guallpa, director of the Workers Justice Project, which organized Los Deliveristas Unidos in 2020. Claudia and Ligia, thank you very much for joining us. Welcome to WNYC today.

Ligia Guallpa: Thank you for having me.

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, any delivery workers out there listening right this minute? 212-433-WNYC. How will this raise impact your life? We'll also take anybody's questions about the delivery workers' raise and how this deal came together. 212-433-9692. You can call or text that number. Ligia, tell people exactly what this deal involves as you see it.

Ligia Guallpa: Yes, absolutely. What Los Deliveristas Unidos have been organizing for the last three years to come to this historic moment to secure a landmark minimum pay, starting July 12th, deliveristas will be earning $17.96 the entire connected time or $0.53 the minute while they're doing a delivery

Brian Lehrer: Claudia, do you want to continue to elaborate on the details?

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: Sure, Brian. This is borne out, as Ligia was mentioning, out of a three-year campaign for app-based food delivery workers here in New York for their rights. I think as we started reporting on this process back in the summer of 2020 when restaurants were closed down and delivery workers were really the ones holding New York's legendary culinary industry afloat. We were really surprised to learn about some of the conditions that these workers were toiling under.

We're talking about multi-billion dollar publicly traded companies cheating workers out of wages and tips. We're talking about the restaurants that wouldn't even let them use their bathroom, that workers were toiling under really high operating costs from bikes and e-bikes that can cost thousands of dollars, branded insulated bags. All the while they were exposed to really brutal assaults and a lot of danger on the job, traffic accidents, all because they were working under an algorithm that prioritize efficiency over safety most of the time.

This was really a hard-fought victory for delivery workers. As Ligia mentioned, this is the first US city to implement a minimum pay rate for this industry. This is really going to uplift a lot of the mostly immigrant workers who do this type of work in New York.

Brian Lehrer: Ligia, you said $17 an hour. We had the New York City Comptroller Brad Lander last hour. He's a big supporter of Los Deliveristas and said that he introduced legislation in city council when he was in city council that helped lead to this, but he says when you take everything into account, it's really going to be more like $13 an hour for a lot of the deliverers because of loopholes or details of this deal. Does he have a point?

Ligia Guallpa: The reality is that deliveristas do deserve much more, but let's backtrack history. We're talking about independent contractors who have been excluded from minimum wage and prior this historic landmark minimum pay rate, deliveristas were making, excluding tips, like literally $7 an hour. Yes, deliveristas deserve a better pay, but at this moment, we're setting a wage floor for a industry that pretty much were excluded from minimum wage laws to other labor protections.

What we're doing here is laying down the groundwork to continue to fight for more. We completely agree with Brad Lander. I think we deliveristas deserve much more, including a hazard pay, deserve to have more protections, especially as they do essential work, and we'll continue to organize and fight. At this moment, we also want to celebrate that despite-- That the fact that they continue to be excluded from labor protections and that this minimum pay doesn't cover all the operating costs, it is huge and it's historic.

Becoming the first city to pretty much establish a minimum pay rate for a workforce that has no protections and are completely excluded from labor protections that have been established in US labor laws.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia, I understand there are two ways in which the deliveristas can be paid under this agreement. By hour or by minute. How do those different options work and how do they compare to how delivery workers are currently paid under the old rates?

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: The four major companies that operate in New York, Relay, GrubHub, DoorDash, and Uber, currently compensate their delivery workers in different ways. Most of the companies simply pay workers per trip, from the moment that they pick up an order at the restaurant from the moment that they drop it off to the customer, and don't compensate workers for the wait time.

The hours and minutes that they spend waiting for an order to come in on their phone and from the time it takes to deploy from whatever spot in the city and location in the city that they're into the restaurant where they're picking up an order. There is one major player, Relay, which I just mentioned, which does currently pay workers by the hour. What this change really does is, as Ligia mentioned, it really is the first time that a major US city, a city period, is really regulating this industry and making sure that workers are compensated for the full-time that they're actually working.

In my own reporting and just based on the Worker's Justice Project and other groups' own research, for a lot of these 60,000 workers, this is their only and primary source of income. We're talking about a workforce that, prior to these regulations that will go into effect on July 12th, were earning $11 an hour, including tips, which is far below the city's $15 minimum wage.

Really, what this does is finally reign in this industry that has been operating pretty much without any sort of regulations in New York. And again, it's going to really uplift these workers. We're talking about $17.96 an hour. Including their cost of operating, but before tips. The mayor in his announcement on Sunday stressed New Yorkers to continue tipping these workers as well.

Brian Lehrer: I think Amy in Manhattan calling in has a question about tips. Amy, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Amy: Hello. I remember stories of when, I guess, the last time that the deliveristas were in the news saying that if customers tipped them through the app, that the money went through the app or maybe to the- I don't know if it's for the restaurant. -and not to the worker. It asked people to tip them in cash. Does the new law address that?

Brian Lehrer: Amy, thank you. Ligia, was that a problem, and is it still a problem?

Ligia Guallpa: Yes. Well, tip transparency is a issue that we have been fighting for since the beginning of the movement. The reality is that there is tip transparency. I mean, there is a lack of transparency on the tips, and we're encouraging to consumers to disclose your tip to directly to deliveristas if you're tipping on the app. If you preferred, deliveristas appreciate as well tipping in cash because it allows them to ensure that the tips directly goes to them.

I think a lot of consumers assume that when the app charges them a delivery fee, that that delivery fee goes directly to the worker. That is something that we want to make it as straightforward. When the apps charge you a delivery fee that goes directly to the app, that doesn't go to the worker, and because deliveristas mostly had to rely on your tips is the reason we had to fight to establish a minimum pay. To ensure that they are not just receiving your tips, but they're actually paid for their labor.

This is why this is historic. Deliveristas actually were not paid a minimum pay for their labor. We're mostly relying on your tips that most deliveristas appreciate and recognize that New Yorkers have been generous in making sure that they can make it through the pandemic, and they can still do this work. We want to keep on partnering with consumers through the Consumer Justice campaign. To be able to able to continue to deliver justice to more than 60,000 app delivery workers who do this work and are essential to our city.

Brian Lehrer: Bottom line to the caller's question is, the only way to make sure that the deliverer actually gets the whole tip, to tip them in cash.

Ligia Guallpa: Yes. We highly encourage and recommend that consumers and customers please disclose the tip amount to the workers when you are tipping on the app. That's what we're encouraging. Also, if you want to be able to tip in cash, do it.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia, in your piece in the news organization The City, you quote Uber spokesman Josh Gold saying, "The city is telling apps eliminate jobs, discourage tipping, force couriers to go faster and accept more trips. That's how you'll pay for this." This is, of course, the employer or that side of the contractor arguing that this is going to be bad for the deliveristas and for the customers.

Also, from the New York Times article on this agreement, it says industry groups opposed the law. Kristin Sharp, the chief executive of Flex, a trade association that represents DoorDash, Uber Eats, Instacart, others, said the added cost to the companies could result in higher fees for consumers and the reduction or possible elimination of tips for workers. Meaning if people have to pay more for their meals because the restaurants or the apps have to pay the deliveristas more, then tips are going to go down.

How are you reporting on that? Is there history of other times that restaurants or other businesses said, oh, this is going to make everything go up where it either did or didn't happen? How would you put that into context?

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: Yes, I'm not surprised that a lot of these companies are resisting, or maybe perhaps not resisting, but pushing back on this legislation. After all, this is New York City reigning in on their business model. Again, we're are in pretty uncharted territory here. This is the first time a US city tries to reign in these companies and this industry and this business model. Actually, to that last point, it isn't the first time that in New York the city has tried to reign in on these apps and the tax sector with regards to "gig work".

I think the closest example would be, the minimum pay rate that were established for Uber and Lyft drivers in New York several years back. There was all this doom and gloom and a lot of this rhetoric from a lot of the companies and trade groups over the same points that they would have no choice but to raise prices for customers, that customers were going to tip less. Ultimately, it's going to be up to the companies to follow the letter of the law and the city to enforce it to the fullest of their abilities.

Needless to say, it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. Whether there is legal action from the part of these companies and whether New York is fully equipped to respond to this major change.

Brian Lehrer: Ligia, is your response to that critique, is your message to customers as somebody who represents Los Deliveristas Unidos that, yes, you're going to pay a little more because now it's costing a little more, but this is only fair and this is justice, or is it a different message?

Ligia Guallpa: Well, I have to say that the reality it's that companies will try to scare their customers by claiming that today's announcement will force them to raise prices, but they already have been charging consumers delivery fees that doesn't necessarily go to the workers. They will say $19.96 in 20, 25 hours to extreme, but the reality is that what they will not tell you is that they force deliveristas to spend their hard spent money, even your tips, on actually making sure that they can do this job.

By using their money to buy equipment, to buy their own health insurance or protective gear, and much more. We want to make sure that if a deliverista is out there doing this work actually earns a minimum wage. We won't be surprised that they will try to scare consumers, spread misinformation. The reality is, companies can afford. They're actually operating in one of the largest markets in the country.

This industry is expected to grow by 30%, so they are making money. What we're arguing is, make sure that when you are making profit you're also making sure that you are paying workers a dignified wage. We're hoping to continue to partner with consumers who, actually, have been part of our Deliver Justice campaign to make sure that deliveristas actually earn a livable wage in the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: You're arguing that there's enough profit in these app companies that they should be able to eat the difference here rather than passing it on to customers.

Ligia Guallpa: Absolutely. I think they are making money. They just need to make better business decisions in order to keep operating in the City of New York. We strongly believe that they need to be transparent about what actually is happening in the industry instead of spreading misinformation and scaring consumers, and to continue to actually operate in the city by treating workers with dignity and respect.

Brian Lehrer: Craig in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Craig.

Craig: Hey, good morning, Brian. My thing is about worker safety. I think there's always been none, I think. I know there's always been bicycles deliveries in Manhattan, but the e-bike's are a new thing. What I'd like to see is some kind of regulation there. They take a class, maybe on video, to show them what the rules or the roads are, the flow of traffic, the hazards of doors opening. I think some of the people, because they come from other places, they're not familiar with New York traffic, and it's a detriment to them and the public.

Brian Lehrer: Craig, I'm going to leave it there because we have such a bad connection, but I hear your point. Ligia, I'm going to be honest. A majority of the callers on our board are calling to say some version of congratulations on this deal, it's well deserved, but the chaos of the way people on these e-bikes, a lot of them delivery workers, are riding on the streets is totally unacceptable. What's your response to them on that?

Ligia Guallpa: We strongly agree that safety is a priority for workers. We are, Workers Justice Project and Los Deliveristas Unidos, are working with DOT, are working with different agencies to ensure that we also educate workers about following the traffic signals, making sure that they are using the right bike lanes. Also, there is a reality. I just want to acknowledge many deliveristas are forced to take the shortcuts just because they are on a pressure to be able to deliver faster. Also, there is a lack of infrastructure that we are working. We're working with Mayor Schumer and also DOT-

Brian Lehrer: Senator Schumer.

Ligia Guallpa: - yes, Senator Schumer,-

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams.

Ligia Guallpa: -and Mayor Adams to deliver infrastructure for 60,000 deliveristas, and also making sure that we educate every deliverista out there to make sure that they're driving safe. They're also making sure that they're following the traffic signals. Part of this making sure that workers are doing this safely is also making sure that they're not in the constant pressure to do this work faster putting their own safety at risk.

That includes having a minimum pay. If a deliverista would not take those risks, their earnings to provide to their families will rely on tips. The reason we pass a minimum pay is because we want to make sure that a worker is able to drive safe, is not on a constant rush to do this work without knowing whether he's going to get a minimum wage.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia, I'll give you a quick last word here. I wonder if you've reported, as a labor journalist, on the air quality last week. We heard in our previous segment, our climate story of the week, that this is only likely to become a more frequent thing in New York City, unfortunately, the way things are going. Have you reported on labor standards that either exist or need to exist for deliveristas and a lot of other people who have to work outdoors when the air quality is unacceptable?

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: Absolutely. We also have reports last week, and even in my own conversations with workers, particularly on Wednesday when the air quality reached really terrible hazardous levels, reports that their eyes were burning, that it was really difficult to see on the road while they were driving and picking up and dropping off orders. I think this is going to continue to be, and I'm interested in Ligia's take on this as well, just yet another frontier of organizing for these workers.

I think that's also been the throughline of my own reporting and our own reporting throughout the last three years. This is a group of mostly immigrant workers who have really summoned their remarkable leadership and organizing skills, starting in group chats in Lower Manhattan, to really just coalesce around and organize around common issues and concerns. Able to summon dozens, if not hundreds of fellow workers to meet, protest, and organize on social media.

Just learning about what these workers, who they are, what do they want, and where they come from, that has been the throughline of our reporting and that has always been ripe territory for us. It's a story of immigrant workers in New York and a story of New York that most of us don't often see. It's going to be really exciting to see them continue on this campaign. Whether it's on health and hazard and environmental issues, whether it's traffic safety or air quality and the weather and climate, or whether it's their continued campaign for better working conditions, salaries, and livable wages.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia Irizarry Aponte, reporter covering labor and work for the news organization, The City, and Ligia Guallpa, director of the Workers Justice Project which organized Los Deliveristas Unidos in 2020. They have now gotten a raise to deliver your foods from the app-based providers. Thank you both very much for joining us.

Ligia Guallpa: Thank you.

Claudia Irizarry Aponte: Thank you.

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