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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer show on WNYC, Good morning again, everyone. As college students across the country, faculty, and staff gear up for second semester, a new report from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, says college enrollment this school year is down by more than 465,000 students. That's a continuing trend during the pandemic with enrollment rates down more than 6% since 2019.

We'll discuss now what types of schools, excuse me, what types of schools, degree programs, and families are seeing the steepest declines, what it means for those people and break down enrollment rates with our next guest. We'll also touch on the lawsuit accusing some elite colleges of price-fixing on tuition and take your calls, students, faculty, others, on how you're managing the complexity of Omicron as spring semester starts.

Here to share her reporting on all this, is national Higher Education reporter at The Washington Post, Danielle Douglas-Gabrielle. Thanks for joining us, Danielle. We're so glad you're with us. Welcome to WNYC.

Danielle Douglas-Gabrielle: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, have you started or are you about to start your spring semester of college, students, faculty, anyone else? What made you decide to continue at all right now with college in the face of limitations from COVID? 212-433 WNYC. People who think you might have been going to college but you're not currently going to college, because of anything having to do with the pandemic, either fear of getting the virus itself, or pandemic financial stresses on you and your family, or anything else, since this headline statistic is 465,000 fewer people are going to college in America right now than last year.

That's never supposed to happen. Are you an example of that and if so, why? 212-433 WNYC. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. What are college-age people doing instead of going to school? Danielle, do we have a handle on it?

Danielle Douglas-Gabrielle: I think we're starting to suspect that a lot of folks are taking advantage of this tight labor market and a rise in wages, and some are working rather than going directly to college. A prior report from the National Student Clearinghouse that show that there was a significant decline in the number of high school graduates going directly to college, specifically among low-income students and students of color, particularly Black and Latinx students.

There is a certain sense that they are taking advantage of the labor market, but there's also a sense that they just may be sitting out and that is really concerning to a lot of folks who are thinking about the long-term economic prospects, not only for those young people and their families, but also for our economy. When folks talk about college enrollment, it's not just four-year degrees, it's also trades, it's also career training that tends to happen a lot at community colleges. That's where you're seeing the majority of the decline. We're potentially losing a generation of folks who will keep the economy going by seeing this trend continue.

Brian Lehrer: In equity terms, does the reporting indicate that the disproportionate economic and health impacts of the pandemic, like who got the virus and how seriously, contribute to disproportionate enrollment or unenrollment in college?

Danielle Douglas-Gabrielle: While this latest report from the clearinghouse didn't really dive into that, previous reports as well as a lot of other studies by economists as well as policy think tanks and such, that look at higher education, certainly show that that is a real concern. Populations that disproportionately were impacted by the virus, especially the economic impact of the virus with jobs closing down and layoffs and furloughs, certainly you see that that pressure bear out in the numbers, where you're seeing a lot of Black and Latinx folks deciding to sit-out of school, in part, oftentimes because they may have to work.

I've spoken to a lot of young folks, who because their parents got laid off or furloughed, felt that they had to get some job, any job to help pay for household goods and for the bills and such. I imagine, for some young folks, when they see their wages increase, there's not as much interest and there's not as much demand for them to really forgo that immediate satisfaction of seeing wages to go to college for two or four years in order to get a degree. I imagine some of what we're seeing right now is a result of that.

Brian Lehrer: Some of what might seem like opportunity might turn out to be fool's gold, is kind of what I hear you saying there.

Danielle: I do think there's a lot of short sightedness in this. A part of it also, is in speaking to high school counselors. The fact that they were not in the building with a lot of students who may need that extra nudge, that gentle push, that reminder, "Hey, fill out your FAFSA, your financial aid form," or, "Hey, you've got to get those applications in," or, "Hey, this program over here for welding at this local community college may be a good fit for you."

Those students didn't have that, in a lot of instances last year, when schools were remote, and for places where they started to really try to engage those students, some of it proved successful, and I do wonder if this year we'll see more of a turnaround on some of those application numbers because more schools are in-person, but it is having a material impact on those students who were on the margins and really needed that adult push, that adult support to really get them to engage with post secondary education.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're taking stock of what's going on with respect to college educations at this point in the pandemic. Enrollment nationally is down by almost half a million students compared to last school year, and around 6%, compared to pre-pandemic. College enrollment has been going up and up and up and up and up in this country for so many years, now it's going down.

What are the implications? How much are there equity issues here in terms of who is impacted? Also inviting your calls on just how you're managing if you're a student or a faculty member, or anyone else connected with a college or a university as spring semester starts, with all the complexity of Omicron relatively mild for most younger people who get it, but so widespread and causing people to have to isolate and quarantine in such large numbers and everything else. How are you managing that?

We're also going to get into the lawsuit that's about elite colleges price-fixing, and who knows, maybe that doesn't just affect them at the very top of the heap of private universities, but also trickles down to everyone else. If you have anything to contribute on any of these things, your story of, "Wait, how can the colleges charge that much?" Or your stories of not going this semester because of COVID, public health or economic pressures, or just how you and your colleagues or your students or your faculty members are managing this Omicron moment in spring semester, 212-433 WNYC, 433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Come on in with Daniel Douglas-Gabriel, who reports on higher Ed for The Washington Post. It's funny, Danielle, you were just talking about how in-person learning might be drawing people more back to campus. I think Liz, a CUNY adjunct, calling in might have a different take. Liz, did I get that right? Hi, you're on WNYC.

Liz: Hi, it's a few things. Thanks very much for having me, Brian and Danielle. I think in part, you're really right about the short-sightedness. I think that maybe students-- I teach history, so we're always trying to look for the long view, and I think maybe students are going for their economic opportunity. We saw it while they were in the classroom, "Oh, Professor, I'm sorry. I had to talk to my boss in the middle of class."

Online education has had its shortcomings, but part of it is that students felt like they had some control. They were trying to do two things at once, not very successfully. Also, the fact is that CUNY has been, City University of New York, has been very unequitable. It laid off 2900 adjuncts when the pandemic hit, cutting classes, and now, somewhat wisely saying we want to have students back. They made us all have a 70% ratio of in-person classes this coming semester, and students aren't signing up. We think especially with Omicron hitting, they're afraid to. Now, it looks like CUNY will inequitably cut those classes, where we adjuncts, we're forced to sign up for in-person classes and put out the poorest of the educators.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. Well, obviously, labor issues, as there always are, for adjuncts, as I'm sure you know, Danielle, covering Higher Ed, but also that thought that maybe this required ratio in the case of CUNY, if she's got it right, that 70% have to be in-person or 70% of the classes, maybe at this Omicron moment, is scaring people away.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: That's entirely possible. Certainly, the rise in cases and infections, especially in big cities that are very populated, has given a lot of people pause. I think students are just like everybody else, in that they're worried about not only their health, but the health of everyone around them. I think, in speaking to a lot of young folks in the last year or so, they weren't so much worried about whether they were going to contract the virus, they were more worried about, could they pass it on to a grandparent, or to a parent who has medical complications?

In making these decisions about whether to be on campus, whether to enroll this semester, in often densely populated classes, on densely populated campuses, some students are saying maybe this is not for me right now. To their credit, there are a lot of schools that are still offering an online option, but fewer and fewer, because they do prefer in-person learning. They do prefer to have students there working together on projects and being in groups together and such.

There's a lot of research to say that's beneficial, but in this moment, when the public health crisis is so very real for so many people, I do believe that there are students who are saying this is not a smart move for me or my family.

Brian Lehrer: Have you done any reporting or seen any reporting on how colleges and universities are dealing with students or faculty members who might be particularly vulnerable to severe effects from COVID? Somebody was telling me yesterday about one student who is not coming back for this semester because they have a significant underlying condition. They don't feel like the school is taking enough steps to protect them.

I've heard from older faculty members on previous shows, who say, "Hey, if I'm over 65, or whatever the age is, I should be given the opportunity to work remote, because if I get COVID, the ramifications for me are potentially much more severe." Have you done any reporting or seen any reporting on how people who are immunocompromised or otherwise vulnerable to severe effects are being accommodated on campus or not?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: Yes, actually, early on in the pandemic, a lot of schools were far more flexible, though there was pushback, don't get me wrong. There were a lot of faculty members who were asking for waivers and there were a lot of schools, a variety throughout the country who were saying no, but some of them were willing to work with faculty members. Since the vaccine came about, that has changed pretty dramatically. There is a lot less accommodation for older faculty, there's a lot less accommodation for virtual classes.

There are still more accommodation certainly for students who are immunocompromised, but the level of let's try to figure out how we can make this work for everyone is not what it was in 2020. It is a bit different. To be fair, there are a lot of schools that decided to delay the start of the spring semester as a result of Omicron. There are some schools that are still in-person, there are many schools that are in-person, actually.

There are a number who decided that it would be best to wait the two weeks for after the break to make sure that people could get tested, to make sure that they were not bringing Omicron onto campus and they could try to take advantage of that moment. It's not what it was in 2020. It's not the same level of flexibility, especially for faculty.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. I guess that's going to be an ongoing question for Higher Ed and just about every other institution when they say that it's no longer a pandemic, but it is endemic, which means, to some degree, it's always going to be around even if not at a pandemic level of spreads. That's a conversation that obviously we'll have to continue. Kelly In Brooklyn, you are on WNYC with Danielle Douglas-Gabriel who covers Higher Ed for The Washington Post. Hi, Kelly.

Kelly: Hi, yes, I am a psychologist in Brooklyn. I work with 18 to 24-year-olds and their parents. My practice, I'm a woman of color, my clients are primarily families of color, middle class, upper middle class, and I am noticing a trend amongst my colleagues who work with this age group. There is a segment of kids where they're just actively choosing not to go to college, either an extended deferral or maybe one or two classes here or there.

The belief in that traditional path amongst kids who were groomed, and we're expected to be college-bound, and presumably had the resources to be college-bound, I find it to be very interesting phenomenon that's happening among a certain segment, is this belief in self-education, this belief in self-initiation, the tech companies giving up the need for college degrees as a barrier to having high-level jobs, kids being told about the gig economy that they're entering the gig economy.

I just wonder if culturally there's something happening in this generation about the utility of a college degree in the face of so many economic, financial, and climate-- how they even view career success. It feels like it's really that I'm witnessing a transformation. Particularly if I compare--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Sorry.

Kelly: If I just compare the age group, this age group, 10 years ago, the same age group I was working with 10 years ago, it's very different in terms of where the kids' heads are.

Brian Lehrer: That is so so interesting. Danielle, what are you thinking?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: I do believe in speaking with a lot of folks in that same age group that the caller was mentioning, there is a level of disillusionment about the value of higher education, in part because of the costs, in part because of conversations around student debt, also, in part, because while the economic benefit of higher education and post-secondary education, and I mean anything past high school, the case has been made, it's pretty clear, but the messaging coming from higher education perhaps needs to be tailored to help students really think past the moment and think about long term, what do they want their life to look like? Not just their career.

What kind of life do you want to live? What kind of family do you want to have? What kind of community do you want to create, and how education can be an important part of that? The economic value is very important, but also just the pure educational value of the experience of college, everything from community college, trade school, and four-year degrees and more, is somehow lost in a lot of conversations that we're having about the utility and the practical nature of higher education. Perhaps that needs to re-enter the conversation when we're talking to young folks.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, thanks so much for adding a lot with that call. We really appreciate it. Call us again. To follow up on what you were just saying, Danielle, it's one thing, I think, if people are disillusioned with the cost of an expensive four-year degree, and what are they really getting out of it compared to the debt that they'll incur and the economic risks and benefits and taking into account whatever just education for education's sake, or fun or other things that they might get from going to a four-year on-campus, dormitory, what we think of as traditional college.

You wrote in your article that public two-year colleges remained the hardest hit sector since the start of the pandemic with enrollment down more than 13% since 2019. I find that really distressing because that's who really needs the education, is people who would go to community college as opposed to-- which so often is job training, compared to ending with a high school degree.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: Yes, there is a bifurcation in what's happening in higher education right now. The really selective schools have seen a bump in applications, they've seen a bump in admissions-

Brian Lehrer: Really?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: -but the schools that are open access to schools that, like you said, do a lot of the career training, are where we're seeing the most impact. Even at four-year schools that offer two-year degrees, associate degree programs that often again are career training, they're also seeing an impact, which while we don't have the demographic data, at least an updated cut of demographic data, what we're gleaning from that kind of data, the most recent data about which schools are really suffering, is that these are the schools that primarily educate large portions of low income students, large portions of students of color, large portions of first generation students, large populations of immigrant students. This is where we're seeing the pain. That should really concern people.

Brian Lehrer: If I can relate this to our previous segment in the show on Joe Biden at one year in the presidency, one of the things that I've heard is likely to get cut out of the Build Back Better bill in order to make it acceptable to Joe Manchin is free community college. The politics of Joe Manchin there intersect in a way that-- I didn't think that we were going to talk about Joe Manchin in this segment, but intersect with this reporting on who's not going to college.

As you say, more at the community college level than anywhere else, and the people who need it most. I don't know that-- maybe your reporting in The Washington Post needs to be picked up by the political reporters in The Washington Post and really get that message out.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: The interesting thing is that I do wonder how much of that decision came down to the cost of it. I have yet to find any member of Congress, Republican or Democrat, that would say that they're against community colleges, because especially among a lot of Republicans, the career and technical training that happens at community colleges, that's in their sweet spot.

I do wonder if it's a matter of the cost of trying to get this program off the ground, but I will say, president Biden has said that this issue is not dead just because it's not in this bill, though a lot of folks who are watching this space are saying they don't foresee it happening in his administration. I can't tell you. I don't [unintelligible 00:22:21] but I will say there are other elements of Build Back Better that could be useful to this very population, certainly the completion and retention grant portion, which would create money to help with support services like housing, transportation, and food insecurity, which are all problems that are very much concentrated at community colleges though they are experienced at four-year institutions as well.

Those are the kinds of things that make students drop out of school. Those are the kind of things that ensure that they won't complete their degree, if we're able to provide federal as well as state support to those sorts of programs, as well as childcare programs. I think a lot of people forget that a lot of college students actually do have children and have to be concerned about their care and when they are, sometimes that means they have to forgo going to class, and that could also create pressure to make them drop out.

This federal fund, if it is successful, would start to really talk about that in a more structural way and try to deal with that. To their credit, lots of schools like CUNY and others are already working with those populations and trying to provide them those support services to stay in school. They just need more support to do it.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting that all those things are in Build Back Better and don't get much publicity compared to community college for free not being in it. I guess I fell into that trap because I did not know all of those details that you just laid out. You just talked about people who are going to school and raising kids, and I think we have one of those callers on the line with us. Simone in Greenpoint, you are on WNYC. Hi, Simone.

Simone: Hi, Brian. I'm getting a graduate degree at the young age of 45 at Silver School at NYU in social work and my daughter is in first grade. I started the program in September of 2020, and we were able to get through the year, but luckily, our semester ended when the first case popped up in my daughter's public elementary school. I've spent this whole process with-- we do an internship in addition to classes.

I've had various sheets of paper that tell me when all the days off are, when I'm going to need coverage and when I'm going to need babysitters. NYU doesn't really seem to care. Certain teachers or professors have been as accommodating as they can be. The school in itself, last year they gave me $200 for the whole year as a childcare subsidy, which is one day of going to an eight-hour internship with the commute.

This year, my daughter is too old to qualify for it because at the age of six, we don't get the subsidy anymore. I'm grateful that I will hopefully finish this semester, but it's been really challenging especially because I'm entering a field where I just want to help people and I made a big change in my career. There's a group of us. We have a WhatsApp chat and everybody's dealing with it in some way.

Brian Lehrer: How are you dealing, Simone, with the-- if you've had to deal with this yet, with your first grader maybe needing to stay home and quarantine some days because of COVID in the class or anything like that. Unlike in the past, you don't know what your kids' days off from school are going to be necessarily, right?

Simone: Yes. I try to just approach it a week at a time. I know some of my professors going in will be empathetic, but then I have some that are vaguely sympathetic, where when I express my concerns to them, they say, "That must be hard for you." Some of them are masters.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your service.

Simone: It's been very challenging, but, so far--

Brian Lehrer: What do you need at a policy level? Because there are so many parents like you out there. What do you and all the others, you only have to speak for yourself, what do you want at a policy level either from NYU or from government?

Simone: I want somebody at NYU that is in a position of power to acknowledge what a huge accomplishment and make some concessions because there's nobody there in a position of power that actually says, "We see you and we hear you and this is a huge challenge you're taking on." It's up to us, individually, to navigate this. Not every mother there is an old New York mother like myself. We just have to be savvy by ourselves and there isn't anybody helping us, supporting us or looking out for us.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Simone, thank you very much for an important call. Danielle, do you hear that a lot?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: Yes, actually. I'm really happy that you took that call because I think oftentimes people ignore student parents and I've written a lot about how colleges can do more to serve them. There are some campus childcare centers, but even that, the demand just does not meet the supply and while there have been federal efforts to provide more money, the money still far outpaces the amount of demand that there is for these centers, for the subsidy support.

I'm happy to hear that there are professors who are acknowledging how really difficult it is to try to complete a degree while raising a child, but it's more a rarity than it is the norm. Too often, this population of students who really represent about 20% of the college population, actually, are ignored in policy making, ignored by colleges. I've spoken to college presidents who are like, "We don't really have very many of those students on our campus," when I know that's not the case. Actually, you do have quite a few parents either in graduate programs and in some cases undergraduate programs.

It's good for folks to hear that this is a part of what the real college experience is. It's not just the four-year, residential, bright face, 18-year-old with no concerns going to a bong party or something. No, it's far more diverse, far more complicated than that and policy has to be reflective of those nuances.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a call from a parent who's going to be visiting a college with his son tomorrow. It's Brook in Pelham. Hi, Brook. You're on WNYC. Thank you for calling. You mean you're going on a college tour tomorrow with your high school senior kid?

Brook: That's correct. We're flying out to Tacoma, Washington tomorrow.

Brian Lehrer: What are you going to be looking for in a college at this moment of COVID-19?

Brook: Well, we want to definitely be looking to make sure that they have a policy in place that everyone has to be vaccinated. I know that the schools that we're looking at, they're also requiring boosters for everybody coming back too. They're not really starting some programs until they have a campus-wide testing.

Brian Lehrer: Does your son think at all about not going right away, maybe taking a gap year, letting the pandemic wind down, if it does?

Brook: I think if it was this time last year, he would definitely have doubts, but I think now that he's been fully vaccinated, including boostered. A lot of his other friends that have gone to college and sees some of the things they've implemented, he's not as scared now. That was definitely a concern last year, but this year, this coming year, not as much.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. All right. Danielle, before we run out of time, I do want to touch on this lawsuit that alleges price-fixing among some of the elite colleges. For people who haven't heard this at all, what's the basics?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: The basics here is that there are 16 very selective schools, including Columbia University, Yale, Duke, Vanderbilt, and such, who are being accused of essentially colluding to fix prices on financial aid to the detriment, primarily, of working-class and middle-class students. There is an exemption in antitrust law that allows colleges to work together on guidelines, as long as they are need-blind. Need-blind means that they will admit everyone without any consideration for whether they could afford to pay tuition. These schools have said that that is what they do, but this lawsuit is alleging that that's not at all what they do.

Actually, they are very much chasing wealthy students or potential students of donors, of folks who can contribute to the school. The lawsuit is fascinating because there are lots of portions where they were just selecting public statements by financial aid directors at some of these schools, saying, "Yes, we give an added leg up to a student or a potential student or an applicant who is the child of a wealthy donor. We do that. That is a part of our admissions practices." Which really runs counter to the idea of being neat-blind, at least in the purview of this particular lawsuit.

A lot of the schools here are saying, "Oh, this is complete nonsense. That is not at all a violation of the law." This lawsuit is going forward. It is saying that these schools, many of which have really healthy-sized endowments, are really working against middle-class families in a way that is violating the law.

Brian Lehrer: Is this about a relatively small number of elite famous name universities or do you think this trickles down to what students pay all over the country?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: While this lawsuit is very specific to these 16 schools, the financial aid practices that they are alluding to are practiced at other schools in terms of favoring students who can pay full freight at times, in terms of legacy admissions, which typically favors students who are wealthy, and who are white, to the exclusion of students who don't fit that profile. Certainly, at the very least, I think this lawsuit raises the conversation about whether these tried and true practices within admissions and financial aid is the best way for schools to serve their mission. That's to educate as many students as possible.

Certainly, the elites are always going to be elite. Not every school can serve every student, but at the same time, many of these schools have made pledges to be more inclusive, socio-economic inclusion as well as racial inclusion. If this lawsuit is correct, that is not what they're doing.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take one more call from a mom whose daughter decided not to go back this semester. If I understand this right, Alison in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alison.

Alison: Hey, Brian. I am such a longtime listener, and I've been on a couple of times. I feel like [unintelligible 00:34:40] Here's the thing.

Brian Lehrer: Family, for those who don't know. Go ahead.

[laughter]

Alison: Two daughters, 24 and 20. The 20-year-old, as you said beautifully, second semester, SUNY Old West, took a long time for her to get there. Had a very hard time in high school for various reasons. I was so happy my kid got there. I don't want to cry. Then second semester, February, COVID hits. She does not go back, and she is currently in my apartment on her bed. It's really difficult for me. She has said that college is not her thing now and I totally feel like had she just had that regular old experience, she would have been fine. 24-year-old, went, graduated from Baruch High School, great public school, and went to a teeny college.

People, look at other colleges. I'm so thankful to hear about your lawsuit, and I'll wrap it up. I am a lower middle class, single mom, highly educated. I have my master's degree in a useless subject, French, from NYU. [laughs] I'm 58, needless to say. I didn't spend an arm and a leg. I paid my loan back of $11,500 over whatever it was, 10 years. I really smartly have to say thanks to me, my older daughter got into Ursinus College. 40 schools that change lives. They worked with us. They were terrific with financial aid, and my kid only has about 20,000 of loans. The older one, who's now in a charter school in East Harlem. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Is it that navigating college in the pandemic that made your daughter decide not to go back for the moment?

Alison: Yeah, she has some anxiety and she did not want to go back. Oh, also she just did not want online, which I understand. I'm with her on that.

Brian Lehrer: It's interesting how people sort into, "I demand the right to have online," and, "I do not want online." Alison, thank you. Disturbing story. I wonder how much you're hearing things like that, Danielle. Then I'm going to ask you one more question before we run out of time. Real quick on Alison's story and the resonance of it.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: Very common. I think there's a lot of anxiety among a lot of young folks right now and colleges are aware of that. I think some are doing a really good job of trying to beef up mental health support services to try to help students work through their anxiety, to help get them back on a path towards their education and completing a degree. Others are still struggling with it. There's also a shortage in mental health professionals. That is a part of the problem as well, but you really have to look at the whole student in order to get them through. The more people can recognize that, the better it is for everyone.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing. When we talked about the impact of the pandemic on colleges in the first months, meaning the spring of 2020, and enrollment was anticipated to be way down in the fall because people were isolating, people didn't know what to expect. Remote hadn't even really ramped up effectively at a lot of colleges. There was worry that a lot of small colleges were literally going to fold because tuition revenue would decline so much. Did that happen?

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: We haven't seen that materialize, but I will say some of that could be that it's a slow burn. Also, the amount of money that came in from the federal government in the three rounds of pandemic relief helped stave off a lot of that tuition revenue hit. A lot of small colleges were able to survive off of that. The thing is, will we continue to see them survive in the next five years? Certainly, the pandemic really exacerbated some enrollment trends that were already underway. When the economy is good, people tend to forego college and we were seeing some of that.

Also, we're facing a bit of a demographic cliff, so that in the next couple of years, and some states are already seeing it, particularly in the Midwest and the Northeast, where you're just not going to have enough of a high school population to go to college. Some schools are being smart about this and looking to adult learners, people oftentimes who have some college credits but never received a degree in order to see if they could help fill the seats. Even there, you're just not necessarily going to have that population boom in order to really help enrollment to grow the way that we perhaps saw it in the 2009, 2010 era.

Brian Lehrer: Danielle Douglas-Gabriel, National Higher Education reporter at The Washington Post. Really great job. So nice to have you with us. Thank you very much.

Danielle Douglas-Gabriel: Thank you so much.

 

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