[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We want to open the phones now for anyone who wants to react to last night's expulsion of two young Black Tennessee State House of Representatives members, Representatives Justin Jones and Justin Pearson. They had helped lead a protest in the chamber over the lack of gun control laws in the state after the school shooting in Nashville that left six people dead. They did not incite violence by anybody's account.

They did not post photos of themselves holding baseball bats to their opponents' heads, just to take a random example of another instance, or say their protest would be wild. There was no violence. We know that many of you following the story, no matter how far you may be from Tennessee, must be bursting with a desire to say something publicly about it this morning. As a live radio show that lives in the news cycle, lives in the present, we're adding this segment to what was originally planned here for the show.

Our phones are now open at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What do you want to say about the expulsions of Representatives Justin Jones and Justin Pearson? As ever, we are here to give voice to you, not just the experts or the newsmakers with power. We welcome your calls at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Here's a little bit of how it sounded on the Tennessee House floor as one of the expulsions was announced.

Cameron Sexton: Pursuant to Article 2, Section 12 of the Constitution of the State of Tennessee, I hereby declare Representative Justin J. Pearson of the 86 represented districts expelled from the House of Representatives of the 103rd General Assembly of the state of Tennessee.

Brian Lehrer: You can hear the many protesters objecting in the background. As your calls are coming in, we also do have a guest with us for this. It's Blaise Gainey, political reporter for Nashville's public radio station, WPLN. Blaise, thanks for joining us on short notice and while your state is in the middle of all this. Welcome to WNYC. Hello from New York.

Blaise Gainey: Hello. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good, thanks. Can you describe, first of all, for listeners outside of Tennessee who may have only heard about this whole issue for the first time last night or this morning, the protests that the three representatives participated in?

Blaise Gainey: Yes, so they went to the podium, called the well to speak during the time when they weren't supposed to, to bring attention to the thousands of protesters that were surrounding the Capitol and inside of the Capitol calling for the legislators to act on some sort of gun reform after the school shooting at Covenant that left six dead, three of them nine-year-olds.

They've been saying the whole time that their actions were only to uplift the voices that the Republican leadership, for the most part, were ignoring. The day of the shooting, they had a session. They adjourned after a moment of silence. They didn't mention the shooting at all. Then the rest of the week, committees went on as normal. On Thursday, without the protesters there, they continued to ignore the topic that constituents and people inside of the building that they want it to be talked about.

Brian Lehrer: How much of a protest movement has there been in Tennessee since the Nashville school shooting, especially by young people?

Blaise Gainey: It's incredible numbers of young people almost every single day at the Capitol. I'm here usually every day. There's usually only adults, lobbyists and representatives, and news reporters walking around. Now, you may run into a group of high school or middle school or even elementary kids. They're here with their parents. There's even at the protest last Thursday.

I'm sure I just didn't see it yesterday, but there were parents here with babies, with strollers. Parents are really upset about this and so are the students that have to go to school. I actually talked to one young 11-year-old, can't remember his name right now, but he let me know it's scary. Every day now when he goes to school, he thinks about not coming home.

Brian Lehrer: What's happening today? I could imagine that after the expulsions added fuel to the fire of protesters' emotions after the original school shooting and the legislature not doing anything about gun reform that people must be even more inflamed. Not to mention it's a day off from school, Good Friday, not to mention it's a day off from school in honor of a person who was crucified for representing the downtrodden, shall we say. What's happening today?

Blaise Gainey: Actually, I have not heard about a lot of protests today. Part of that is probably because on Fridays, the legislators don't meet until later into the session when they're trying to wrap up. I would expect protests to pick right back up on Monday when they have a session and next Thursday. My guess is that this won't stop anytime soon.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, I've been seeing comparisons, Blaise, to the civil rights era, and that it wasn't necessarily just the righteousness of the issue of voting rights alone that led to the Voting Rights Act as an example from 1965 but the southern states' overreaction, in that case, in the form of police violence, that sparked lawmakers from around the country to finally vote for the Voting Rights Act in Congress. Is it too early to say if this assault on democracy as it's so widely being perceived might help bring gun control to Tennessee?

Blaise Gainey: I think if any indication from the Republicans so far who are in the supermajority, they have all the power here to pass laws. They have not brought up any gun legislation that people are calling for. The Democrats have proposed five bills that would ban assault weapons, ban bump stocks, enact a red flag law here in the state, and also bring back permitted carry.

Right now, we have permitless carry in the state. Before this happened, lawmakers were moving pretty quick to pass a law that would actually allow 18-year-olds to permitless carry. Right now, you have to be 21 and over to do it. They've actually been going in the exact opposite direction of loosening restrictions even more in a state where you can probably buy an AR-15 in a public parking lot.

Brian Lehrer: Before we take some calls with you, Blaise, the act of expulsion is so extreme and, from what I've read, so rare in Tennessee legislature history. How did it come to this and how rare is it?

Blaise Gainey: There's only been, I believe, from what I saw, two members of the House, but somebody did say three. They could have misspoke, but I've only seen two members of the House expelled. One was in 2016. It was Jeffrey Durham, I believe his name is, and he was accused of sexual assault by more than 20 women. In that process, to get him expelled took months. It wasn't one week like the two Black men that were expelled last night. The person before that was in the '80s.

They were accused or found guilty of bribing another lawmaker to essentially buy their votes. The rarity of this, it's only happened two times in a span of, what, 50 years before last night when they did two in one night. I think the racial factor in this is it can't go unnoticed. The three members who went to the well, two Black, one white, all participated in the same act. If I was to rob a bank with two friends, all of us are an accessory to that crime, no matter who held the gun or put the money in the bag. In this case, they saw it fit to only expel the two Black lawmakers instead of the one Caucasian woman.

Brian Lehrer: How do you think that could be explained? Is it an overt act of, "Let's get the Black guys," or is it a little more implicit in terms of the same acts committed by a Black person or perceived as more threatening or more serious than the same act committed by a white person?

Blaise Gainey: I think you said that beautifully. I think that that second one of the same acts committed by a Caucasian person or a white person is not seen the same as when a Black person does it. I'm only saying this because Representative Gloria Smith, the white woman who was not expelled, said this herself and so have several lawmakers.

They've actually likened what happened last night to a Jim Crow-era type of legal battle where if you were watching, you could see lawmakers, Representative Andrew Farmer for sure was pointing at Representative Justin Pearson in a way that just was unsettling. Some of the ways that they asked the questions also, it was way more aggressive, their tone. At some point, it just came off straight-up disrespectful.

Brian Lehrer: Ben in Freeport, Long Island, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Ben: Good morning, guys. Brian, I think one of the things that needs to be done here, there's no question that this is obviously racist. There's no question, this is obviously a civil rights issue, but I think that this needs to be broadened. The focus needs to be brought out to show that this is a greater issue of an assault on what we as Americans stand for.

This is the kind of legislative nonsense that goes on in Russia, China, North Korea, and the tin-pot dictatorships in South and Central America. I think that if it's broadened to point that out to people, I think you'll get even more support. The idea that these legislators could turn around and say, "Well, we don't like what you're saying." Granted, it is racist. There's no question, but more importantly, this is a fundamental attack on American beliefs.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Ben. Thank you. What would the legislators who voted overwhelmingly-- it is an overwhelmingly Republican House and they voted overwhelmingly for these two expulsions. They also voted overwhelmingly to expel that third person, the white woman, Gloria Johnson. She only survived by one vote because they didn't get the two-thirds. It was still an overwhelming vote against her. What would you say to the caller's assertion that this is really just to silence dissent, which makes it a fundamental democracy issue?

Blaise Gainey: I think that was spoken very eloquently. It is true that they brought up issues of gun control on that day, but they've brought up issues with the system here in the Tennessee House several times. In fact, Representative Torrey Harris, who was not up for expulsion last night, talked about how, when he first got here, he would be ignored a lot of times on committees when he wanted to ask a question. He's also an openly gay Black man that lives here in Tennessee. He talked about having tough times on committees.

In fact, he even talked about asking to be taken off of a committee because he just felt uncomfortable being there. Just last week, Senator Hensley, who is also a Tennessee white man, wore a tie that had inspirations from the Confederate flag. I think there was also Representative Paul Sherrell who, earlier this session, tried to add an amendment to allow death by hanging, essentially trying to bring back lynching as a way to kill prisoners who are on the death penalty.

I think that it's no secret here if you've been covering the Tennessee General Assembly or just paying minor attention to it. They make the news almost every other week about these racist aggressions. I want to say minor, but I don't think they are minor. I think people have to really take notice to what is going on here. I definitely agree that this is definitely not American democracy, or at least not how it's supposed to be run. What people do overseas, this does seem no different.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go to Pamela in Newark. Pamela, you're on WNYC with Blaise Gainey, political reporter for Nashville's public radio station, WPLN. Hi, Pamela.

Pamela: Good morning and thank you for taking my call. I feel this is a portentous sign. These legislators, the gentlemen there who were expelled, they represent the voice of their constituency. According to how the Constitution is set up, this government is supposed to represent the people. It's voted in by the people and it's for the people. When you see things like this happening, it springs back to Jim Crow era where Black bodies have always had to deal with violence, with impunity. I think, really, there needs to be an outcry in terms of this being a historical pattern that is not going to go away, and how do we navigate so that our children can be safe because we are--

Brian Lehrer: Pamela, thank you very much. Let's go next to Shelly in Westport, Connecticut. You're on WNYC. Hi, Shelly.

Shelly: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I was watching on C-SPAN as they covered the actual discussion going on inside before the voting. I was so impressed by the three people that had been put on trial so to speak. As was pointed out during that "trial," they were not given due process. Other cases as has been cited took months for them to determine what would happen. Furthermore, as Mr. Pearson read from the Rules of Order, it turns out, it was not a rule that he broke. Even though they made him apologize for, turns out he didn't break a rule. Second of all, if he did break a rule, if any of them broke a rule, censure was the punishment prescribed in their own documentation.

Brian Lehrer: Shelly, thank you very much. Blaise, they did break a rule, right, using a megaphone? Technically, on paper, what rules of the legislature did they actually break?

Blaise Gainey: They're not supposed to go to the well without being recognized. They started approaching the well in about five minutes, or five seconds, sorry, or maybe even 20 seconds. After they were at the well and speaking, the House Speaker went into recess. Anything after they went into recess, the rules don't apply. I believe that you're not supposed to bring prompts. Bringing the megaphone out or bringing a sign out would have been against it. I have not reviewed the tape to see exactly when they brought those items out.

Like the person said before, breaking a rule, which I believe somebody even said that rules are broken all the time. House Speaker Cameron Sexton, I believe, told us that people break rules all the time in committee. They just get told not to do it again. In this case, they saw it fit for some reason. House Speaker Cameron Sexton said that they deserve expulsion. At least it seems as if he never thought of censure being enough. After already removing all the lawmakers from their committees, he saw it fit to expel them.

I think another thing that should be pointed out is the fact that the Democrats here are in a minority, a super minority. They can't pass a bill without Republican support. You saw last night, it was nothing they could do to stop their members from being expelled. It really would not have hurt if they just censured them and allow them to still stay on as voting members. I think, really, all last night was them sending a message to any other young Black people who aspire to be in politics that Tennessee is not the place for them.

Brian Lehrer: One of the Republican leaders call the act a mutiny. I'm curious if any of those same Republican leaders-- and I know this is a state legislature. They're not in federal politics, national politics. If anybody asked them to compare what these lawmakers did on the floor to former President Trump posting a picture of himself holding a baseball bat to the head of the Manhattan DA or predicting that there would be death and destruction if he was indicted, are they defending Trump? Is there any way to know?

Blaise Gainey: There is no way. I haven't seen any of them currently defend Trump, although many of them being with the Republican Party have definitely sided with Trump in the past. A lot of their cues do come from people that also aspire to elect Trump again in the future. It wouldn't be surprising to me that they don't see anything that Trump did as bad. For some reason, what these lawmakers did is possibly worse as Cameron Sexton said in the insurrection at the US Capitol.

Brian Lehrer: Last question and I know you got to go. I know you're in the middle of reporting this. You've very generously donated some time to us today. Is Tennessee becoming the most radical right-wing state in the union? This happened in the Tennessee House. Just yesterday, we were talking about the Tennessee Senate going further than even most other red states in their campaign against trans rights and passing a bill that actually defined sex as an immutable trait identified at birth, denying trans people even recognition under the law is existing. I know it's got a near-total ban on abortion now. What's up with the Tennessee legislature compared even to other right-wing states if you report enough in the national context to make any comparisons?

Blaise Gainey: Well, I actually feel like my career has given me the opportunity to answer this question perfectly because before coming here to Tennessee, I was in Florida. I was there under Governor Ron DeSantis and Governor Rick Scott. I will say, I've been here for nearly two years. My friend texted me this morning and said, "It looks like Tennessee is number one when it comes to the most racist states." I couldn't disagree with him.

Florida was pretty bad. Florida has its ways. Everybody talks about Florida a lot, Florida men, but I think Tennessee has reached a new level of very overtly being racist. Now, I will say that I don't think that these lawmakers, House Speaker Cameron Sexton, Representative William Lamberth, are acting any different than what their constituents want them to act like.

If you go to their Twitter pages and look at their comments or even other Twitter pages, you can go to my Twitter page and see some of the comments, you can tell who aligns with what side just by simply reading. It's a lot of people. Enough people comment that I can tell there is a lot of people in the state that are totally fine with the expulsion. I do think that Tennessee has become one of whatever you asked me. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Blaise Gainey, political reporter for Nashville's public radio station, WPLN. Blaise, thanks again. We really, really appreciate it.

Blaise Gainey: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: We have so many people calling in wanting to say things. Even though we're late for our next segment, let me just let you give voice to some of your thoughts for another couple of minutes. SJ in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. SJ, thank you for calling in.

SJ: Yes, thanks for having me. I just, really quickly, just wanted to respond to a comment. I think that racism itself is already enough of a threat to our democracy.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, because one of the earlier callers said this isn't just about racism. This is about something larger a threat to democracy itself.

SJ: Yes, I think that the threat to democracy itself that he was talking about when it comes to being nervous about if I dissent in any way like this could happen to me or something like this could happen to me, it's very valid. I just wanted to voice that. Racism affects all of us. I understand his point and his aspiration. You'll get more people to agree with you. If you don't just enter racism, it feels coded for. You'll get people who don't feel like they're affected by racism to agree with you if you make this feel like they're affecting them. I just want to remind people that racism, A, affects us all and, B, is itself a valid and giant threat to democracy.

Brian Lehrer: SJ, thank you very much. One more. Bob in Riverside, Connecticut, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bob. It looks like you have some relevant experience.

Bob: Good morning, Brian. Yes, thank you for taking the call. On our local legislature here in Greenwich for 20 years and did at one point participate in a special committee, it was dealing with a breach of decorum of one of our members who spent the summer in weekly meetings driving down from your beloved Adirondacks to come down for the weekly meeting to deal with this. It was, in my view, a more serious matter than the situation in Tennessee. We disposed of it relatively, in the end, of minor censure.

The thing that occurred to me, the first that I would like to hear from is the-- I'm not sure his title, but the House Speaker or whatever down in Tennessee, who is presumably a Republican. They are now amplifying the remarks and magnifying the vision of what they have done to these two House members in evicting them and giving them both a platform and amplified and shone a light on their remarks going forward. Certainly, two previous speakers have put Tennessee racism on the map.

Brian Lehrer: Right, it remains to be seen if it's really true. It certainly feels at this moment like the House leaders in Tennessee have poured fuel on the protest fire, certainly in the narrow sense for gun control in the state of Tennessee, which was the precipitating issue after the Nashville school shooting, but also on the issue of racism, also on the issue of gerrymandering in Tennessee to give the Republicans such a big House majority as they have, and issues of democracy and race writ large as the last caller was talking about and several callers have talked about. Also, these lawmakers who are not nationally known are now big national figures. All of a sudden, they're all over television this morning.

We're going to try to get one of them on for our show on Monday. We'll see if they have time. They also may yet be reappointed is the way I understand this works. Their county legislatures are Democratic-controlled. They could reappoint them to the vacancies that now exist in their seats and, boom, they're national celebrities. You're right. In addition to all of the other things about this, it could backfire politically on those who committed the act of expulsion. Bob, thank you. Thanks to all of you for your calls on this. Obviously, we'll continue to cover it throughout the day on the station. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We turn the page after this.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.