[music]

Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everyone. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Brian who has a well-deserved day off today. If you happen to find yourself in Times Square today, you may see "gun-free zone" signs. That's because after the Supreme Court struck down New York's century-old law limiting concealed carry permits, the state legislature passed the law changing its gun laws to comply with the court's decision. One thing that New York did was identify "sensitive areas" where those with gun permits cannot carry a loaded weapon.

That includes churches, schools, daycares, bars, and public transit, and one specific location - Times Square. The new law which goes into effect today also changed the eligibility requirements for getting a concealed carry permit.

What's a sensitive area? What for the purposes of this gun-free zone is Times Square, and what will New York look like with former people carrying guns after the Supreme Court decision? Joining us to talk about this is Jon Campbell, WNYC and Gothamist Albany reporter who has been reporting on the story for us. Hi there, Jon.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Matt. How are you?

Matt Katz: Doing great, thank you very much. I'm glad we were able to get you today. Listeners, thoughts on the sensitive locations and the new gun permitting process. Are you considering getting a gun permit? Are you a gun owner who is concerned about there being this proliferation of sensitive areas where you can't carry a concealed weapon? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC or 212-433-9692. Tweet us @BrianLehrer.

Jon, give us a little background here. I kind of tried to sum it up in the intro but the Supreme Court basically said New York gun law was unconstitutional, and then New York responded with a new gun law. Walk us through the basics of New York's new gun regulations.

Jon Campbell: Yes. The old law basically said sure you can get a concealed carry permit, you can legally carry a gun in public with a concealed carry permit, but you have to have "proper cause." What that basically meant was you needed some sort of special reason to carry a gun in public. Maybe you have a special need for self-defense. Maybe you're a politician who received death threats. Maybe you are a domestic violence victim who needs to carry for their own protection, something like that. That was on the book for basically a century.

That led to this case that worked its way through the courts. The Supreme Court weighed in in June and said, "No, you can't do that. That's too subjective. It varies from place to place in New York how people interpret that, and you can't do that. That's a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Second Amendment." That left New York in a place where it became much easier constitutionally in New York to get a concealed carry permit, so New York decided to make it harder for anybody to carry a gun in "sensitive locations."

That is a very, very long list. The state legislature passed a law in July that essentially declared these gun-free zones in, as you said, public transit, theatres, arenas, at public protests, you name it, Times Square. You can't carry a gun there now as of today, even if you have that concealed carry permit.

Matt Katz: Listening to this list and reading your story today on Gothamist about the long list of sensitive areas, it's a lot of places. It reminds me of the drug-free zones that are basically everywhere in congested urban areas because of schools and playgrounds. That led to disproportionate drug charges against people who live in congested urban areas. I haven't seen a map, but it must be maybe a majority of the city if you take everything into account.

Jon Campbell: Yes. Actually, when Governor Hochul was asked about this when this law passed in July, she was asked, "Where are people going to be allowed to carry guns in public?" She basically said, "Well, maybe some streets." It is an enormous swathe of the city, an enormous swathe of the state, and it could potentially get the state into legal trouble here quite frankly. We had a ruling yesterday from Judge Glenn Suddaby - you heard Michael Hill talk about that in the news break here - and he allowed this gun-free zone law to take effect today, but only because he dismissed a lawsuit based on standing.

A group called the Gun Owners of America brought a lawsuit, tried to get this blocked before it took effect, and the judge said, "Nah, I can't do that. You don't have the right standing." Basically, the plaintiff for this case that they chose didn't quite meet the requirements for legal standing, so he couldn't block it from taking effect. This ruling, it was a 78-page ruling and it basically just ripped this new gun law to shreds. Said that the gun-free zone part of it was essentially unconstitutional because it's way too broad.

It said other parts, in terms of increased requirements to get a concealed carry permit, were unconstitutionally onerous. That could lay the groundwork for further legal challenges to try to challenge this law. You have this judge, a federal judge in Syracuse saying, "Yes, this is unconstitutional."

Matt Katz: The other thing is the boundaries of the Times Square sensitive location are huge. We're talking 40th to 53rd Street, and then almost every block from Sixth all the way to Ninth Avenue. It's a generous definition of Times Square that the city has defined here. Could there be more sensitive areas added? Like a specific neighborhood in Brooklyn where there's a lot of gun violence. Is that possible?

Jon Campbell: That's where you get into this constitutional question. That was part of the Supreme Court decision earlier this year. They essentially said, "Yes, you can ban guns in certain sensitive locations." They gave the example of schools, churches, things like that, and New York really took that and ran with that and, according to Judge Suddaby, may have taken it beyond that limit. That is really going to be one of the constitutional questions that are asked in these court proceedings.

The one example that the Supreme Court did give as an example of something you couldn't do is you couldn't make the entire borough of Manhattan a gun-free zone. Could you do a targeted area? I don't know. That would butt up against the Second Amendment rights of gun owners.

Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm WNYC reporter Matt Katz filling in for Brian today. If you're just joining us we're talking to my colleague, Albany reporter Jon Campbell. We're here talking about New York's new gun law and the gun-free zone of Times Square, which goes into effect today. Listeners, thoughts on sensitive locations and the new gun permitting process. Are you considering getting a gun permit? We're going to talk about that with Jon too in a moment.

Are you a gun owner who is concerned about there being this proliferation of sensitive areas where you can't carry a concealed weapon? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692, or tweet us @BrianLehrer. We actually, I believe, have a gun owner on the line. Pete in Norwalk, Connecticut. Hey there, Pete.

Pete: Yes. Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call.

Matt Katz: Sure.

Pete: I am a concealed carry permit holder in Connecticut, and by and large I think having gun-free zones are a bad idea. Because if you take a look at those highly publicized mass shootings that have occurred over the recent past, a lot of them do happen in gun-free zones. Schools, churches, synagogues, those are all gun-free zones. Think about it. If your goal as a murderer was to kill as many people as possible, wouldn't you go to a place where you know folks don't have guns to shoot back? Why do you think there are never any mass shootings in police stations or in gun ranges? Do you know what I mean?

I'm sorry. You know this is going to be the case, but eventually there will be another burning [unintelligible 00:09:06] situation in the subway. You know it's going to happen. Although it's a week, what's going to happen then? Are you going to go arrest that legal gun owner for defending himself against crime because he carried a gun into a gun-free zone?

Matt Katz: Those are two good points, Pete. Thanks very much. Jon, first of all, the caller raises one good point like is this really going to make Times Square safer? Does this really make Times Square safer? Then the second point he raised is how do the police enforce this?

Jon Campbell: Well, there's two pieces to that. Essentially, the caller was making the bad guy with a gun, good guy with a gun argument that we've heard from Second Amendment supporters a lot. It doesn't make people safer. There's a question about whether it makes people feel safer as well. When you have a tourist destination like Times Square where you want as many people as possible there for the city's sake, making it a gun-free zone at a time when it is legally easier to get a concealed carry permit, does that assuage concerns from tourists? That's what Mayor Adams and Governor Hochul are hoping quite frankly.

The other piece of this, it's how do you enforce it. If police see somebody with a gun they can charge them with a class E felony. There's only really slim exceptions to who can carry guns in these gun-free zones, including military personnel, police personnel. That's pretty much it. If somebody stopped, they have a gun, they could be charged with a class E felony even if they have that concealed carry permit if they're in a gun-free zone.

Matt Katz: To clarify, you can have a gun in the gun-free zone if you're permitted, but the ammunition has to be separated from the weapon, it has to be stored properly. Right?

Jon Campbell: Yes. There's new storage rules as part of this too. This is where it gets a little tricky because New York City had more strict storage rules than the rest of the state did. Now the state's coming in line with that, but there's new safe storage rules in terms of statewide, and if you're driving you have to have it secured and locked. In some ways, the rest of the state is catching up to New York City in those regards but it's going to be tricky in terms of enforcement. There's no doubt about that.

We did hear from Keechant Sewell, the NYPD Commissioner, yesterday, and she says they do intend on trying to enforce this to the best of their ability.

Matt Katz: I was trying to play this out in my head. If police see something that might under somebody's clothes look like a weapon, can they stop and just ask if they're carrying a legal gun and then demand to see their permit? You could see situations where Second Amendment advocates would be salivating at the opportunity to sue over something like that.

Jon Campbell: Second Amendment advocates or search and seizure, there's been all sorts of questions about that over the years obviously with stop and frisk, things like that. Those are constitutional questions that are raised by this and will depend on how the NYPD and police forces across the state intend on enforcing this, and how aggressively they intend on forcing this. There are so many constitutional questions here, and I'm sure we'll see them work their way through the courts over the coming years.

Matt Katz: I'm going to get to callers in a moment, but there's another piece of this new law, and that's the eligibility requirements for getting a carry license. Can you just walk us through a little bit about the new regulations if you want to get a permit?

Jon Campbell: Yes. The old law, the law that was invalidated by the Supreme Court, said you needed "proper cause" to get a concealed carry permit. As part of this new law that was passed in July, the state changed that and said you have to have good moral character essentially. There's this new process that's going to be standardized across the state. This is another one where some localities in the state had stricter processes than others, but now you need to complete 16 hours of classroom training and two hours of live fire training before you can get a concealed carry permit as of today.

In New York City and Westchester and Long Island, you have to re-up that every three years, which means you'll have to take the training again if your permit expires. That adds to it as well. You have to provide character references. You have to provide three years of your social media accounts. That's another issue that is raising some constitutional concerns from some civil rights advocates, things like that. There are all these new requirements to get a concealed carry permit. You saw a rush of people all across the state trying to get in before these requirements took effect. You saw a rush of applicants coming to county clerk's offices or the NYPD, or whoever the licensing officer is in your locality.

Matt Katz: There's a bit of a backlog now, but there's no question there'll be a lot more permitted gun owners in New York City by next year. Let's go to the phone lines. John in Rockland County. Good morning, John. Thanks for calling in.

John: Thank you. How are you?

Matt Katz: Doing well, thanks.

John: I'm a retired New York City police officer. I am a licensed gun owner, HR 218, which means I can carry across the 50 states. I have a question in regards to-- You mentioned moving the area, like a Times Square gun-free zone, to other sections which were having higher gun crimes. The question I have to you guys is how many licensed gun owners commit crimes in New York State? Everybody I've arrested with illegal guns, they have illegal guns. They're not licensed gun owners. Every homicide, every shooting, very rarely is it a licensed gun owner in New York State. Is that correct?

Matt Katz: I don't specifically know those stats offhand. I'm not sure if Jon does, but let me ask you as a former police officer. Do you foresee the proliferation of more legal gun owners in New York City having any effect on gun violence? Do you think it won't necessarily make a difference given the fact that--

John: I personally don't think more guns with untrained people is a great idea, no. At the same time, I think this blanket idea that licensed gun owners who are generally pretty-- they generally don't want to get sued. They don't want to use their gun. It's not this mentality of the Texans walking around with a gun on my thing and getting into a gun battle type of idea, and I don't want it to be. I don't think anybody wants that to be. At the same time, we have a proliferation of illegal guns in New York City which is causing a huge increase of crime that we see daily, shooting incidents, which is something that we should really monitor. Right?

Matt Katz: Yes.

John: Shooting incidents that are going up, and there are illegal guns coming into the state.

Matt Katz: John, if you were going to Times Square-- I don't know if you have a relative visiting from somewhere around the country who wants to go to Times Square. Will you go to Times Square and leave your weapon at home or handle it differently?

John: I don't know how the effects-- I personally would carry into the city.

Matt Katz: You'll carry in a gun--

John: Besides being in the military I've been trained by the New York City Police Department. I'm not going to get into anything unless something is directly affecting me or my immediate family.

Matt Katz: Would you carry in a gun-free zone regardless of these new--

John: That's a good question. I probably would. I probably would.

Matt Katz: Because that's what you do and that's how you feel like you can keep you and your family safe and the risk of a class E felony isn't--

John: We've had numerous shootings in the Times Square area from when I was in the police department too continuously, and stabbings and things of that sort. For my personal safety, I would definitely think about it.

Matt Katz: John, thanks so--

John: Now back to illegal, how do we cut back on illegal guns coming and unlicensed individuals? Nobody has an answer to that and that's where-- The number of shootings and the number of crime violence that we have in New York State is from people, illegal gun owners, using them. How do we cut that down?

Matt Katz: That's obviously the bigger concern also for the commissioner and the mayor. John, thank you very much for calling. Stay on for a moment after I let you go so we can get some of your information. Really appreciate you calling in. Yesterday the governor and the mayor did an event or did a press conference talking about the new regulations and the Supreme Court decision. Did they pivot to the reality that the former police officer just brought up? That illegal gun crimes are the bigger issue here and illegal gun owners and people do not have permits? That's really the driver of violence, not necessarily those who are licensed to carry.

Jon Campbell: That has come up with the governor over recent weeks and months, I would say. She has actually taken pains to really highlight the work that New York State police have done in getting more and more illegal guns off of the streets. Ghost guns, in particular these 3D printed guns that don't have any serial number to track. There has been more of a focus on that on the state level really to get at that argument that John, great name by the way, was trying to make there.

Yes, it has come up in that context. Eric Adams, we know he's a former police officer himself. I know his point wasn't really about police officers carrying, but more legal gun owners. The general idea behind the gun control advocates is more guns out there in the world lead to more potential for gun crime. That is essentially what their argument is, and the idea is to get fewer and fewer guns out there in the world essentially, so that's part of this. New York has a long history of enacting gun control laws and they had a Supreme Court decision. They're trying to dull the impact of that decision essentially.

Matt Katz: Speaking of that Supreme Court decision, Judy in Port Washington. Hey there, Judy.

Judy: Hi.

Matt Katz: Hi. We--

Judy: I just want to highlight-- Hello?

Matt Katz: Go ahead, I'm sorry. Thanks, Judy.

Judy: I just wanted to highlight the hypocrisy of the Supreme Court striking down our law. I was there on a school trip with a kid of mine many years ago. Besides regular security and regular metal detectors, you had to put anything you had on you in a locker. No metal more than one quarter's worth to get your locker back at the end of your trip, so I had to put my purse away and everything. I would be happy living with laws that are only as restrictive as the Supreme Court uses for itself.

Matt Katz: Very good. That's an important anecdote, Judy. Thank you very much for calling in. Can we go to Richard in Yonkers? Hey there, Richard.

Richard: Oh, hi. The police officer who called didn't see why we should have licensing because licensed people don't commit crimes, but it's really the process of licensing. It is what's sort of the advantage here. If you didn't have licensing, everybody would have a gun and it would all be legal. Winnowing out the people who might potentially be crazy or aggressive, that is the point of having licensing. That's all I need to say.

Matt Katz: Now though, getting a license is a lot easier. That was the point of the Supreme Court decision. Thanks for calling in, Richard. Appreciate it. Jon, one element of the new licensing, which you mentioned, is that they check your social media. That's, as you mentioned, obviously controversial, but it also seems like really not all that clear. What will they be looking for? My Facebook has privacy settings, so for certain people I've never met in real life, they can't necessarily see all my stuff or all my pictures.

How are the bureaucrats in Albany supposed to sort all of this out? Are they just going to be checking out my vacation photos on Instagram to try to figure out if I'm going to be a lawful gun owner?

Jon Campbell: [chuckles] It's the bureaucrats in each of the--

Matt Katz: Okay. Like the local police department? Got it.

Jon Campbell: Every location has a different permitting officer. Sometimes it's the county clerk, sometimes it's the police officers, so they would be the ones that have to request that information and sort through it. That was in response to the Buffalo shooting earlier this year, where the shooter had a racist manifesto and made racist comments online. There were red flags in his discord postings and things of that nature, and it was in response to that. That idea has been kicking around a little bit in Albany over the years, but that's really what put it into effect here was the red flags that were missed with the Buffalo shooter.

It's difficult. The law isn't super, super clear, but it essentially says you have to turn over links essentially to the most recent three years of your social media accounts. That's going to end up being applied different in different places. There's going to be different standards based on maybe if you're in rural New York versus if you're in New York City. That's a tough one, and that's one that almost certainly will bring a lawsuit of some sort, will bring some sort of legal challenge. It'll be interesting to see where the civil liberties folks come out on that measure itself. That'll be one for the courts to decide ultimately.

Matt Katz: Jon, is the new gun law playing out in the governor's race at all? Has it been an issue? Are the candidates talking about it one way or the other?

Jon Campbell: Crime, in general, has been a huge issue, and it's one that Lee Zeldin, the Republican candidate who's challenging Democratic governor Kathy Hochul, he is really, really trying to make an increase in crime over the last year or so a central issue of his campaign, as a lot of Republicans are across the state and across the country. That said, gun control laws in general have shown to be popular in New York. Now that's generally New York City, maybe some of the suburbs. They're far less popular in more rural upstate areas where hunting is a big part of the culture and guns are a bigger part of the culture quite frankly. It has been in the sense that crime as a whole has been an issue.

That said, Governor Hochul would point to these rules, these laws, these new gun control laws, as a political benefit to her because they would be quite popular in places like New York City.

Matt Katz: Let's take one more caller on this. Steven in Brooklyn, thanks for calling in.

Steven: Hi. How are you doing?

Matt Katz: Good.

Steven: Essentially what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the idea of gun-free zones necessarily works because if you have a pocket that is a gun-free zone but the law of the land is a gun zone, then it doesn't make sense because that just allows for gun owners to walk into a space, or illegal gun owners to walk in a space where, as the past callers said, to have easy targets. I don't think a gun-free zone makes much sense in a land in which guns are essentially just free to have anywhere.

Matt Katz: Thank you very much, Steven, and we're going to leave it there. Appreciate you calling in, Steven, and appreciate you being here, Jon. Thanks very much. Jon Campbell is our New York State government reporter. Talk to you soon, Jon.

Jon Campbell: Thanks, Matt.

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.