Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now an update on conditions in Gaza, and the US and UN politics of balancing Israel's legitimate war aims and protecting civilians. The UN has another version of a ceasefire resolution in front of it today, after the US vetoed one last Friday. The Biden administration is still pushing Congress for more funding for Israel's war effort, but also now bypassing Congress for what Biden considers an emergency sale of ammunition and other supplies. They're doing those things even as Secretary of State Antony Blinken, representing the US, of course, went on CNN on Sunday to highlight the gap between what Israel says it intends to do, and the actual results on protecting civilians in Gaza from the fighting, and allowing humanitarian relief to get in. Here's Blinken.

Athony Blinken: But now what's critical is this, even as Israel has taken additional steps, for example, to designate safe areas in the south, to focus on neighborhoods, not entire cities in terms of evacuating them, what we're not seeing sufficiently is a couple of things. One, making sure that the humanitarian operators who are there, starting with the United Nations performing heroically, that there are deconfliction, times, places, and roots, so that the humanitarians can bring the assistance that's getting into Gaza to the people who need it. Similarly, we need to see the same kind of deconfliction, time, pauses, designated roots, plural, not just one, and clarity of communication so that people know when it is safe and where it is safe to move, to get out of harm's way before they go back home. These are the kinds of things we're working on every single day, again, to make sure that that gap between intent and result is as narrow as possible.

Brian Lehrer: The gap between intent and results. Secretary of State Blinken on CNN State of the Union Program Sunday morning. What are the results in recent days? We'll hear are some headlines. New York Times, Gaza civilians under Israeli barrage are being killed at historic pace. That's the headline. The article cites experts who say, even a conservative reading of the casualty figures shows that the pace of death during Israel's campaign has few precedents in this century, for example, more than even the deadliest moments of the US led attacks in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan, says The New York Times.

Washington Post, Gaza health system is on its knees. On its knees is a quote from the World Health Organization.

The Post says that Israel has announced that starting today, the Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel into Gaza would be opened to increase the volume of aid amid those health system collapse warnings. Also, Washington Post, Israel claims progress against Hamas as humanitarian crisis worsens. IDF officials said Hamas was beginning to buckle under the onslaught. Recently, videos of captured Gazans, stripped to their underwear, in some cases blindfolded, and with hands bound, recited as evidence in Israel that the group's fighters had begun to surrender. Gazans, however, described seeing family members and children among the detainees who had no connection to Hamas. The attacks have forced tens of thousands of displaced civilians into overwhelmed pockets near the Egyptian border, from the Washington Post.

On some of the individuals being killed, CNN, prominent Gaza professor and writer killed in airstrike weeks after telling CNN he and his family had nowhere else to go. Refaat Alareer was famed for his role in chronicling Gazan experiences. He was instrumental in nurturing young Palestinian writers, and help them tell their stories in English according to friends and colleagues, says CNN. The Group Frontline Defenders tweets, "We are saddened by the news that disability rights defender, Bader Mosleh, was killed by an Israeli airstrike on 7th December. He leaves a legacy of courage and dedication. His commitment to raising awareness about the barriers faced by individuals with disabilities, particularly those with visual impairments, was unwavering."

Political Reports, "Half of Gaza's population is also starving." The Deputy director of the UN World Food Program, Carl Skau, citing Skau on the BBC.

One more from the Washington Post, "Israel is detaining civilians in Gaza. Many have disappeared, families say."

With us now, Washington correspondent, Miriam Berger, covering US Foreign Affairs and the Middle East for the Washington Post. She contributed to those post articles I've been citing. Miriam, thank you for some time today. Welcome to WNYC.

Miriam Berger: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Can you start with the state of the Gaza medical system? What is the World Health Organization describing as on its knees or near collapse?

Miriam Berger: As you described, the humanitarian situation right now facing Gazans from the north to the south is just really horrific. Basically, people cannot access basic medical needs, let alone treat the complex wounds that have happened as a result of the war, as well as any pre-existing illnesses that they had, which have now likely very much worsened. As you also pointed out, the rates of starvation are rising really high, putting people already then at a greater risk for contracting diseases that in theory could be quite easy to treat if people had medicine and weren't in highly congested spaces with bad sanitation.

It's a recipe for disaster. Hospitals have become part of this war. Rights groups have accused Israel of targeting hospitals. Israel has accused Hamas of using them. They have not provided the evidence that supports all of their claims. Basically, people can't access hospitals right now, basic medical care and aid can't get to them. There's no fuel, there's no basically food, no water. It's a hospital system that can't work.

Brian Lehrer: That scary statement from the head of the UN World Food Program, that half the population of Gaza is starving. I got that from a political article, not from your Washington Post reporting, but do you know what he's referring to about the food situation?

Miriam Berger: We've spoken to people about that same issue, where just even accessing a can of like tuna basically is extremely hard. The price of flour has skyrocketed. Anything that is on the shelves, if there is anything, is really, really expensive. A lot of the border zones in the buffer zones in the north of Gaza are also agricultural zones. Those are the places where people will be right now going to pick fruits and vegetables that would help sustain them through the season. Those areas are destroyed, making it even harder in the months to come to even have any chance of Gazans helping to sustain themselves.

Gaza pre-war was already highly dependent on international aid. Now it's basically completely, but there's so little aid coming in that that isn't able to meet the needs of people, and the aid that comes in is highly restricted in where it can go due to ongoing Israeli bombardments and access issues.

Brian Lehrer: Your story on Israel detaining civilians and families saying their loved ones have disappeared, the implication is they're not just detaining known Hamas members, but we know there's propaganda on all sides. Can you say with any accuracy how many people might fall into that category, and why?

Miriam Berger: We don't have any numbers. As I reported that of the overall number of people of civilians who have been detained, those detained without charges, it's a very murky, complicated situation right now, but we have talked to lots of people who describe very similar instances in which their relatives or themselves were detained for hours or for what's been now been weeks.

There have been some women from Gaza who have been seen now in the Israeli prison system. The Palestinian Prisoner Society says they have about 136, but that number likely does not include as many people given the stories that we are hearing. They are hard to verify right now. The situation there is very complicated and hard to figure out what's happening sometimes, but what we do is we talk to a lot of people, and we hear the same stories very frequently.

Brian Lehrer: On the military's goals, your article, Israel claims progress against Hamas as humanitarian crisis worsens, what's the progress the Israeli military is reporting?

Miriam Berger: They have made grounds in terms of just capturing more land itself. They've pushed deeper into Khan Yunis, which is one of the areas of the south that previously Gazans had been told to go to for their safety, and now they're being told to leave or are caught in the battles. There's those areas. Israel has also, as you had mentioned in the introduction, said that these pictures, images, films which are technically unofficial, show what they say are Hamas fighters surrendering. As you also noted, family and friends of people that who have been pictured had questioned that and said that's not the case for their family.

Those are some of the signs that they're showing. At the same time, Israel is saying that this is going to be a very, very long fight. They're both signaling what they say are successes, but also that this isn't ending soon.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned the videos you reported on that Israel released of some prisoners. Your article says Israeli government videos of mostly naked prisoners sparked outrage among rights groups which said that parading stripped prisoners could amount to mistreatment under international law, and that the lineup seemed to include non-combatants. What's the purpose of those videos? You seem to report Israel is releasing them for a reason?

Miriam Berger: Up till now, they have been, to our knowledge, videos and photos that actually have been taken by soldiers. The IDF savvy its own media propaganda elements. These have been technically unofficial, is what they've told us. They do play well back inside Israel for people who very much support the war. There's still a lot pain and anger around the October 7th attack, and people see what's happening inside Gaza is justified based on that. That's what Israelis have said to us. These kind of images play for the Israeli public into the narrative that the war is being successful, and that there are Hamas people who are being captured. As we said, that's one interpretation of the situation.

Brian Lehrer: Now let's talk about the politics. My guest is Miriam Berger covering the Middle East and US Foreign Policy for The Washington Post. I played the clip of Secretary of State Blinken on CNN. He says Israel has the intent to protect civilians and allow an aid but not the results. What does the US say about the results when it's talking to Israel? As you and others have reported, the Biden administration is nevertheless invoking emergency powers to send ammunition to Israel.

Miriam Berger: I'm not privy to those internal conversations, but what I can speak to is what the plans that Israel has said it's put in place and what we've been able to see as the results and the outcomes. There is new mapping for giving information about evacuations. They say that there's increased efforts to call to tell people to evacuate. On the ground, we found there's a lot of chaos, people don't get that information. They can't access the internet. Their cell phones don't work because there's no electricity or coverage is extremely limited. Even the things that are announced, sometimes humanitarian quarters announced at 10:20 saying that it started at 10:00. People don't have the information that perhaps is being even provided to them. There's a huge disconnect here, people say they were told to go this place, but then that place was attacked. They were supposed to go here, then that place was attacked.

It's a very, very difficult situation right now for Gazans. They typically pick up the phone, when you ask, "How are you?" They say, "Still alive."

Brian Lehrer: Is there any indication from Washington Post reporting that Gazans blame Hamas for embedding with civilians to the extent that they have over the many years and for staging the horrific October 7th attacks bringing this upon them?

Miriam Berger: That's an important interesting question. We're not really quite able to answer right now, at least on my end, in part because we just can't talk to as many people about these situations. People are very focused right now on surviving. That's really the focus. What I can say is that we have heard increasing criticism, and that even before the war, Gaza was very highly restricted. There was very little freedom of expression. Hamas was quite repressive, and you would already hear criticism of the government. Right now, what we do here is we hear frustrations just across the board, obviously with the Israeli war, as well with Arab governments who aren't seen as doing as much.

People will tell us that. That's what people will tell us, as well as frustration with the UN agency [unintelligible 00:14:31] for the fact that it has such issues with distribution. Also Gazans and Palestinians more generally will often also be quite critical of the United States. Those are the various degrees of criticisms that we are hearing right now.

Brian Lehrer: The UN ceasefire resolution on Friday, and the Security Council, which the United States vetoed, what was the language in there that caused the US to veto?

Miriam Berger: The United States wanted it to be directly addressing the October 7th attack as well, which was not included, and so that ended up being vetoed. There's another resolution today, though it's a non-binding one on a different body.

Brian Lehrer: Is that the general assembly rather than the security council?

Miriam Berger: Yes, exactly.

Brian Lehrer: That's going to be almost all the countries of the world are going to be voting on that resolution. That's just a sense of the nation's resolution. What the Security Council does is more, as you say, binding, right?

Miriam Berger: Yes, exactly. That one would have the weight when it comes to calling for a ceasefire.

Brian Lehrer: The US was the only no vote in the Security Council on the Friday resolution?

Miriam Berger: I would have to double check that fact. I don't want to speak out of term. I know that the UK abstained, but I do know that the US vetoed.

Brian Lehrer: Right. It sounds like you're not directly reporting on the United Nations, so you might not know this, but do you know who drafted the resolution and why they did not include any reference to the Hamas attack or Hamas' ongoing role in the war?

Miriam Berger: That is a really important and great question, and unfortunately, as you said, I am not as focused on that. I'm much more focused on the daily news and what's happening in Gaza.

Brian Lehrer: On the Biden aspect, if Biden bypassed Congress as he reported to send more tank munitions and other equipment, does the US have any conditions for Israel to meet on what Blinken calls results of protecting civilians? Or does the US actually just say things but not impose consequences as far as your reporting can tell?

Miriam Berger: As of right now, that is what my and other colleagues who also report on this have largely found. There are increasingly critical comments coming out of the Biden administration. As you noted also at the same time, there's continued military aid and support being provided, but larger than that, I'm also not quite as familiar.

Brian Lehrer: Congress has a big Israel aid package in front of it. It's stuck right now because of US politics over our own southern border. Let me play a clip of Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders who seems to be one of the only voices in the Senate who wants to place conditions on that next tranche of aid to Israel. Here, Sanders.

Bernie Sanders: We're talking about 16,000 Palestinians dead, 70% of whom are women and children. You're talking about 1.9 million people displaced from their homes. Half of the buildings, the housing units in Gaza have either been destroyed or damaged. Bottom line is, yes, Israel has a right to defend itself against Hamas terrorism, but the type of military strategy they're using now is inhumane. It's in violation of international law. We should not give a blank check to Netanyahu to continue that policy.

Brian Lehrer: Bernie Sanders on NPR last week. Does the Israeli government say it needs more USAID in order to successfully destroy Hamas, which is its goal?

Miriam Berger: Specifically in terms of the military needs that Israel's military needs, I'm not as familiar, but I would say that in terms of the support from the US, it's very critical, both for the Israeli government and for the Israeli public, especially as there is increasing international criticism around the heavy civilian death toll in the war. The US support here is definitely, amongst Israelis, very much appreciated as seen as something that they can continue to expect.

Brian Lehrer: Miriam Berger based in DC covers US foreign policy on the Middle East especially for The Washington Post. Thank you very much for giving us some time today.

Miriam Berger: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get a view from one of the leading relief agencies, CARE International, when we continue in a minute.

[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We just heard from Washington Post correspondent, Miriam Berger, in DC covering US foreign policy as it relates to the Middle East. Now we'll hear more about the humanitarian situation from Deepmala Mahla, Global Humanitarian Director for the relief organization, CARE. With a PhD in Women's Reproductive Health, her bio page on CARE's website says Dr. Mahla has worked for two decades designing and implementing humanitarian and development programs in some of the most complex and fragile environments, ranging from the Middle East to Africa to Asia. She joins us today from Nairobi, Kenya.

Dr. Mahla, thank you for coming on WNYC with us. Hello from New York.

Deepmala Mahla: Good morning, and greetings to you.

Brian Lehrer: Can you start with a big picture of CARE's presence in Gaza over time before the current war?

Deepmala Mahla: CARE had been working in West Bank, Gaza, for several decades. With most of our staff, CARE staff, who were from the area and our programs were on a range of topics, including livelihoods, economic empowerment for women, hygiene, community resilience. As of now, as you can imagine, the situation is very, very different, and all our development programs in Gaza at the moment are on hold due to serious concerns of security for our staff, as well as pretty much, I would say, lack of humanitarian access.

Brian Lehrer: What kind of presence does CARE have on the ground in Gaza right now?

Deepmala Mahla: In Gaza, we work with the local partners. CARE has a few staff who are CARE staff, and then we have several local partner members. That is the model in which CARE works. We have some of our staff, and then we have partners for local organizations. We are trying hard to keep in touch with our teams, which includes CARE staff and partner organizations. As you can imagine, this has not always been smooth and easy.

Brian Lehrer: CARE provides food relief, among other things. We heard about the UN Food Program chief saying half the people of Gaza are starving. Can you tell us what CARE workers are seeing or doing in this respect?

Deepmala Mahla: I would say half of them starving, to say the least, to say the least. What CARE people are seeing is many of us are experienced humanitarians, I must say. We've spent decades doing this, but this is something which we have never, ever seen anything to this scale and this level of misery, and it seems very dark. What our people are seeing, even when we talk to our colleagues on the ground, you can hear kids crying in the background because they've been thirsty, there is no food. It's so common to hear that people are either eating alternate days or they are cutting their food intake to make sure that at least the children have some.

We are hearing from our colleagues on the ground that people are consuming dirty water, and wherever they can find some clean water, they are really preserving it, in their words, preserving it like gold so that they can at least mix it to prepare baby food or keep it, for instance. People have been displaced or forced to flee multiple, multiple times. Whatever little relief which is trickling, there are very long queues, and it is grossly insufficient from what is needed. Sanitation conditions are also very, very serious at this point, and we are very concerned. I personally worry that that situation, if it continues this way, that moment is not far when we will be hearing about children and people dying because of nutrition or starvation related diseases.

Brian Lehrer: What's the state of being able to get food in?

Deepmala Mahla: Dismal. Because the Rafah border on the Egypt side, yes, it does open and allows some aid, but the number of trucks entering is, let's say, almost a third of what is needed. Then the inspection and the whole process of aid drugs is very long. It is like a drop in the ocean. If we, the international community, the parties to the conflict, the world leaders, are really serious that when they say that they want to save lives, this has to change.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned earlier in the show, The Washington Post reporting, and I assume others have it, that Israel has announced that starting today, the Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel into Gaza would be opened to increase the volume of aid amid those health system collapse and starvation warnings from the various agencies of the UN, and as we hear from you, at CARE International. Do you know, from your people there, whether that crossing has been further opened and to what effect?

Deepmala Mahla: Yes, we are also hearing similar things, but I want to say Kerem Shalom opening will, as we understand, will mostly be for inspection, which means it will speed up the inspection, but then the trucks have to go into Egypt and then enter Rafah. This is a welcome sign in terms of speeding up aid coming in, but this is not ideal because the level of destruction and the needs that they are, the first and most important thing is an immediate sustained ceasefire, and then we need more border crossing openings. Because, look at this, even if we can pass more trucks, how can we deliver aid under guns and bombing? How can people come to collect aid under bombs and guns and constant shelling?

Aid cannot be delivered when there is constant fighting going on. The second thing, which I would say, move people to a safe place. I wonder where? Where is it safe in Gaza? We know, nowhere. Yes, Kerem Shalom? Yes. Again, a drop in the ocean. These small actions are too late, too little right now. 1.9 million people are watching. I won't even say history is watching, future is watching, the people of Gaza are watching. When we talk to our colleagues, care staff, partners, the one thing which I have heard over and over again is that everybody seems to have forgotten about us, or is everybody waiting for the destruction to happen and then step in to deliver aid.

As a humanitarian, for us it is a moment of, I must say, deep frustration, and humanitarians would never give up being optimistic. We can still avoid the worst-case scenario. What makes me think so? Since last several weeks, and now months, every morning I wake up, I check the situation, I feel, "God, it cannot get worse than this." Then the next day is worse, and it gets worse and worse. We can still avoid the worst-case scenario. Not without a cease-fire.

Brian Lehrer: Not without a cease-fire. Since you at CARE International as a relief organization are wading into the politics in that respect, calling for a cease-fire, there was one UN resolution to that effect on Friday, vetoed by the United States. There's another one in the General Assembly coming up today. Do you address both sides when you say that? Supporters of Israel would say, "Don't just call on Israel to stop the fighting when Hamas is planning, threatening, promising to stage more October 7th's in Israel, also tell Hamas, surrender," or as I see CARE has done, release the hostages unconditionally. How would you put that? How would you characterize CARE's position in those respects?

Deepmala Mahla: CARE's position is defined very strongly by the humanitarian principle of neutrality and independence. The atrocities committed by Hamas were unconscionable and depraved, and taking and holding of hostages is abhorrent. The call for their release, immediate release, unconditional release is urgent and justified, and we support it, CARE supports it. The right to self-defense does not and must not require unleashing of this humanitarian collective punishment on millions and millions of civilians. It is not a path to accountability, nor is it to healing, or nor is it to peace. Even wars have rules. CARE works in so many conflict zones. I know so much humanitarian aid in war zones. I cannot think of any other situation where civilians have been so trapped. We think that the US government must stop its diplomatic interference at the United Nations and blocking calls for a ceasefire. We call upon the US government, act now and fight for humanity.

Brian Lehrer: Deepmala Mahla, Global Humanitarian Director for the relief organization, CARE International. She joined us from Nairobi. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.

Deepmala Mahla: Thank you for having me.

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