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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WYNC. Good morning, everyone. Video on or video off? As more companies put off their plans to welcome, or force employees back to the office, what's the best way to fight virtual meeting fatigue? Maybe give them the option to keep the camera off. Teachers are already familiar with lots of kids attending school remotely keeping their cameras off, for better or for worse.

A new experiment documented in The Journal of Applied Psychology aims to make sense of how the camera impacts the quality of the individual and group experiences via Zoom and other such apps. With me now are two of the authors of this study. Allison Gabriel, Professor of Management and Organizations and University Distinguished Scholar at the University of Arizona's Eller College of Management, and Kristen Shockley, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Georgia. Professor Gabriel, Professor Shockley, thank you both so much for being with us. Welcome to WNYC.

Kristen Shockley: Thanks for having us.

Allison Gabriel: Yes, this is really exciting.

Brian Lehrer: Professor Gabriel, can you describe, in simple terms, what the experiment looked like for participants?

Allison Gabriel: Yes, absolutely. What we were interested in was having people use the cameras some days and not on others. We asked people on particular days of the study to keep their cameras on or off. Then we had them throughout the day rate their feelings of fatigue, and then their engagement in the meetings, and their level of voice. So how much they felt they were able to speak up and convey their ideas.

What we found, pretty compellingly, was that on days of the study where people had the camera on, they were more likely to feel fatigued, and then that fatigue correlated with reduced engagement and reduced voice. We often have ideas that when we're using the camera, that's promoting engagement and our results are starting to suggest that actually, the fatigue that people feel from using the camera could be undermining those efforts.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. It isn't the same for all people. I see that you predict, based on your findings, that using a camera during virtual meetings will be more fatiguing for women and for newer members of the organization. Dr. Shockley, can you explain why that might be?

Kristen Shockley: Yes. We hypothesized exactly that and we did find that. The effects were exacerbated for women and newcomers. Our theory behind this was related to ideas of self-presentation. All those of us who have been on Zoom calls, we know that you're focused on yourself when you see your image up there. Even if you do the hide self-view, you're constantly thinking about people watching you, so there's this heightened self-presentation effect that's occurring.

We know that the standards for women for appearance tend to be higher. Also, women are more likely, statistically, to have kids running in the background distracting, and that might make them feel like people don't think they're devoted as a worker. That's the reason we expected and we speculate, found that it was worse for women. It's more fatiguing for them.

Then for newcomers to the organization, we thought, if you've recently started at the company and you don't have those established relationships with people, you feel like this heightened sense of you have to be really on in your best behavior, looking engaged the entire time you're in the meeting, and so that's even more fatiguing.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we welcome your phone calls on this subject. When you're in a virtual meeting, when do you leave your camera on, when do you leave your camera off? 646-435-7280. Is this a source of tension for you? Like sometimes you just don't want to have to stand there and look or, really, more the opposite, be seen by everybody, but you don't know when the etiquette or professional consequence you might pay comes into the picture? 646-435-7280. 646-435-7280, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Professor Gabriel, what about the opposite, where if you don't have your camera on, you might be judged for not participating and that could be either stressful or fatiguing, even if it's not true?

Allison Gabriel: Correct. We've had a lot of excitement and interest in this research since it came out. I think that's part of the discussion, is people raising this point of, "We need to have healthier, more holistic conversations about why people may or may not be using a camera." We really need to shatter these blanket assumptions that we have that if somebody has their camera off, they're automatically disengaged, or not in the room, or not paying attention.

In fact, it could be the very, very opposite. That they have their camera off and they're just using this moment to pace in their room to think through what they're about to say and they don't necessarily want that on camera. I'm hoping, and I know Kristen as well, we're hoping that this is raising an important discussion as people continue to navigate virtual meetings. That maybe we can do a better job of talking about our norms surrounding camera use and why some people may or may not feel more comfortable on camera.

Brian Lehrer: Does it depend on the size of the meeting at all, Dr. Shockley? Like if you're in a meeting with just three or four other people, there might be more of a reason to keep your camera on so it feels more like you're in a room with them, even though it's a virtual room. Whereas if you're at a big staff meeting of hundreds of people, let's say, then you can be more like you're just an audience member in a theater watching the president of the company or somebody present.

Kristen Shockley: Yes, that's a great point. We didn't specifically study this, although we have some studies lined up in the future where we want to tease apart some of these factors to get more like the exact conditions when the camera's best versus not, but I suspect exactly what you're saying is correct. When it's a smaller group, it's more intimate, you're not feeling quite as much of that self-presentation stressors. Whereas if it's that big group with hundreds of people on there, turning off the camera can really be easy then and a nice time for you to just relax and not feel like you have to be perfectly on the entire time, but still listening.

Brian Lehrer: Let's pick up a phone call. Here's Blake in Ocean Grove. You're on WNYC. Hi, Blake.

Blake: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: What'd you got?

Blake: Basically, last week I was on a four-hour chunk of back-to-back meetings on Zoom. I really wanted to just go for a walk for one of them, but I was unsure about what the etiquette was. I didn't want folks to misinterpret my being active during the call as me not paying attention, but seriously, my brain was turning to mush and I didn't know what to do about it. I just stayed on Zoom, probably glazed over, and didn't get to go for that walk, but I really wish I did, because I was so tired.

Brian Lehrer: Professor Shockley, could you give Blake, and other people who are nodding right now listening to her story, like, "Yes, I've been in a similar situation" some advice? Is there a way you can communicate, "I'm going to go camera off for this meeting. I've been in four meetings in a row, I want to take a walk, but I'm perfectly attentive to everything that's going on." Just say that or do you have any advice?

Kristen Shockley: Yes, I was actually nodding my head here too, because exactly, I feel your pain. I teach classes that are five hours long and by the end of that, you're really glazed over. I think what you said, Brian, is great advice. It's the communication aspect. It's being outward and saying, "Look, I'm going to turn my camera off. Just because I've been in a lot of back-to-back meetings and I need to walk around, and I don't want you guys to go dizzy by seeing my background going crazy. I'm completely listening, totally attentive, but just wanted to let everyone know that."

I think that that can go a long way and that can help some of the stuff Allie was talking about in terms of getting norms in the organization about video use. If we start talking about it more and communicating, I think it will become more of the typical behavior.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. Blake, I hope that's helpful for next time. I think you were helpful in just sharing that story so other people could identify with it because you're not alone, no doubt. Rachel in Maplewood, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rachel.

Rachel: Hi. I just wanted to share that I have found hide self-view to being incredibly helpful. What I really care about when I'm meeting with folks is connecting with them, which is something that-- When I'm in person with people, I'm not looking at myself, I'm focused on them. I found--

Brian Lehrer: For people who don't know what you mean. Hide self-view, when you're on Zoom-- I don't know about all the other apps. I use Zoom a lot. If you're on Zoom, you are not just seeing the other people, but you're seeing yourself. You're seeing your own face, but you have the option to hide yourself from yourself.

Rachel: Correct. There's three little dots in the corner of your image and if you click on those, then one of your options is hide self-view. All of a sudden, you're not seeing yourself, you're just seeing the other people. To me, it much more replicates what it's like to be in person with people. Because when you're in person, you're not looking at yourself in the mirror, you're focused on the other people.

I found, for me, it really helps with my self-consciousness and I could focus more on what I was saying and sharing with the folks and kind of forget about what I might look like in that given moment because there's nothing I can do about it anyway.

Brian Lehrer: Rachel, thank you very much. Did you look at that at all in your study, Professor Gabriel? Self-view as something that-- I mean, I could see where it's the other way too for some people. Maybe it's empowering and reassuring to be able to see what you look like in this Zoom meeting as you're on with other people. Have you looked at it either way?

Allison Gabriel: I'm nodding in agreement also because I actually didn't know about that feature until recently when the pickup started around our research. We didn't look at that at the time, but I do think that is one of the distracting fatiguing elements on Zoom. At least, for me, I know when I'm talking and I see myself in the corner, I'm like, "Oh, is that what I look like when I talk? This is really distracting."

The other thing I think people underestimate when they're on these Zoom calls because I completely agree, I think hiding self-view is one thing that can help, the other thing that's still tricky though is when you have a wall full of Zoom screens and Zoom boxes, and you're talking to one person. You don't really know who's looking at who in that.

I think that's another distracting element that we underestimate in the virtual medium is that we have a hard time figuring out who's paying attention to who. If I see somebody making a strange glance in the corner screen, was that at me in response to something I said? Did they just get a private chat from somebody else? There are these distracting elements, I think, unique to virtual meetings that we don't see as much in-person.

That's something that, as Kristen said, we're trying to figure out how can we help people thrive on Zoom given that we're likely going to be doing virtual meetings for a longer chunk of time than we all would like.

Brian Lehrer: Sean, on Martha's Vineyard, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sean, as we talk about camera on or camera off, video on video off on Zoom and other virtual meetings. Hi, Sean.

Sean: Hi. This is very exciting. I was telling the screener, I'm actually a postdoc researcher at IU. Right now I'm with my family in Martha's Vineyard, but I do developmental research and I'm having kids do an online experiment. Ideally, it would have been in-person but everything changes now. I have them hide self-view, and that's one of the first things we go through. They're 10 years olds, they're actually much more savvy than I am with technology, but it does actually facilitate this in-person experience and I think it just makes the interaction that much more natural.

I'm also a hypocrite because I turn off my camera when I'm in meetings, but that's so I can walk around and get things done, but just not having the kids look at their own faces and just looking at each other. I turn my camera off, they can't see me. It actually replicates the sort of in-person this class-like experience by having kids work together on problems, and it just makes it that much easier for them. As a researcher, they forget that I'm there. It's one of the most naturalistic experiences I've ever had where they really don't feel like they're being watched, which is what every psychology experiment is actually like.

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting. We've heard from teachers on this show during the last school year about how frustrated they've gotten when 90% of the kids have the cameras off and they don't really know who they're getting through to or not getting through to and their presumption is that when you're talking about teenagers, high school kids, whatever, that if they have their camera off, maybe they're not really paying attention in the same way that an adult with a camera off in a business meeting, in a professional setting, might. I wonder if you're looking at that, Sean, in your research with kids?

Sean: I'm not. Right now, it's just in the context of them working together, solving problems. My assumption though is that they are paying attention, especially because I'm recording them and I can see them chatting with each other, but I don't know if adults approach it differently.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Dr. Shockley, any thought about how your research which was more with adults in professional settings might apply to kids in school or not?

Kristen Shockley: Yes. I think that's a really good point regarding teaching. I think that might be one big exception to this camera on camera off, and we saw a lot of that in the commentary once our article came out, people saying, "I'm a teacher, it is just terrible to teach to black boxes. You have absolutely no idea if the students are even paying attention or understanding the information. You're not getting that feedback with the head nods and whatnot."

I would not be so quick to generalize our findings from this professional business setting with adults to the teaching context, I think. I love what Sean just said in terms of doing the hide self-view or having her camera off and having the students still have their cameras on. I think that sounds like a really great setup and it's nice to hear that's working well for her.

Brian Lehrer: Jana in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jana.

Jana: Hi. I wanted to call in to speak towards the presentation aspect of it. I'm a Black woman and I find that, in this time of Zoom, there are Zoom meetings called for all day that most of them could very clearly have been emails. I work in predominantly white institution spaces, and for me, getting ready often takes a lot of time. If there's a Zoom meeting called at nine o'clock in the morning, I don't want to have to get up at six in order to "be presentable for my colleagues" which is why I often prefer to keep my camera off and/or if people are in spaces where maybe they're not of the same socio-economic background as many of your colleagues, they might not want that shown on camera to their workpeople.

Brian Lehrer: Who wants to dive in on that? Dr. Shockley? Dr. Gabriel?

Allison Gabriel: I can drop in, yes. I think that's exactly it. I'll be perfectly honest. When the pandemic hit and we made this jump to virtual platforms, I was a new mom. We had our baby the day before the pandemic got declared, and so I was in a position where when I made my return back to work, I was having to juggle virtual meetings with a newborn, and we didn't have a choice.

I think there have been blanket assumptions made about people's workplaces and workspaces that they have available to them. That everybody's going to be comfortable just Zooming from a bedroom or their apartments that maybe doesn't look as pristine as somebody else's.

I think this gets back to the earlier point we've had about communication. We're in this big rush to return to normal, but what are we returning to? I hope we're returning to this holistic understanding that we need to talk about what makes people comfortable, what lets them thrive at work, and maybe for me, that's using my camera and letting you see my messy background. Maybe for other people, that's using camera off and being able to go on the walk during the call.

I'm just hoping we're at this inflection point and this is good research for us to continue doing to help people really just thrive and work in a setting that really works for them as opposed to working against them.

Brian Lehrer: Jana, anything to add?

Jana: Yes, I really appreciate that. I think for a lot of different people who how they show up to work, even when we were in-person, was really, really or critically policed has almost made worse over Zoom because of the assumption that I should "be easier because you're home". Oftentimes it's like, "Okay, well, if we're scheduling these things back to back, there are things I need to do like eating that, again, I don't want to do on-camera or maybe I didn't have time to do my hair and it's crazy. I just don't want it to be on self-view, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not participatory or listening."

I really agree with what you said with communication and hopefully, the person that you're reporting to or the people you're reporting to are okay with that but definitely keeping the conversation open that participation can look a lot of different ways.

Brian Lehrer: One thing that you said there I hadn't thought of before, you can go to an in-person meeting frequently and bring a sandwich or something and it's not considered rude, but I imagine eating on Zoom would be weird.

Jana: Because most people aren't up in your face when you're eating a sandwich in-person, they're some distance away.

Brian Lehrer: Jana, thank you so much. Call us again. Two things before you go. Dr. Shockley, what about group cohesion with the camera not off? If you're on a team, let's say, in tech company or something like that and you're meeting regularly, but you're all remote and you're trying to keep some group cohesion in the work you're doing. Is some of it lost based on your research if a lot of people have cameras off a lot of the time?

Kristen Shockley: Yes. Our research doesn't speak exactly to that, but I can say we found when the camera was on and you got fatigued and you had less voice and engagement in meetings, so that would actually speak to the opposite. If the camera is on all the time and it's tiring people out, then they're not going to be as engaged and speaking up as much in meetings.

I think, generally speaking, this goes back to there's a time and a place for the camera to be on. I think it would certainly be tough for group cohesion if everybody always had their camera off.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Shockley, something that might be on the minds of a lot of workers considering whether to return to the office in situations where it's optional is there might be a bias against people who work remotely. Is there any emerging body of research on hybrid workspaces or offices where workers have the option to work on-site or remotely, and whether the way you use your camera plays into your effectiveness, or not your effectiveness so much but preventing bias against you?

Kristen Shockley: Yes, there's almost no research on this hybrid work environment which makes this a really exciting time of a remote work researcher, because I think that's what we're going to start to see right as the new norm. We don't have a lot of data that speaks to that but there are some preliminary ideas surrounding using different kinds of cameras, so there are some side-view cameras that basically they're not in your face, but they're still showing you as you're working at your station.

You can see everybody's workspace sort of like you would if you were walking around in person. The idea is that it's supposed to level the playing field a little bit where you can still see "your remote workers" at the same time. I'll be interested to see if those kind of things take off.

Interviewer: We have to leave it there for now. Allison Gabriel, Professor of Management and Organizations and University Distinguished Scholar at the University of Arizona's Eller College of Management, our longest title of the week award, and Kristen Shockley, Associate Professor of Psychology at the University of Georgia. Thank you both so much for sharing your research and having a good conversation.

Kristen Shockley: Thank you.

Allison Gabriel: Thank you.

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