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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Governor Cuomo is gearing up to fight for his political life even as more key allies abandon him, and more core supporters, like prominent NAACP leader Hazel Dukes who Cuomo compares to a second mother to him. The State Democratic Party Chairman Jay Jacobs, and now the union's DC37 and 32BJ, the big New York City Municipal Workers Union and the big Building Services Union 32BJ. Nevermind the President of the United States Joe Biden and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi from his own party, calling for him to resign. New York Attorney General Letitia James said that in sexually harassing current and former employees the governor violated some state and federal laws.

Now those were civil charges. Now he's even coming under criminal investigation in Manhattan, Westchester, and Albany based on details of the Attorney General's report. These are not indictments, but the DAs are now asking these criminal questions. Remember, all this is happening against the backdrop of a fast-spreading coronavirus variant and calls for action on the state level in areas such as rent relief, as we were talking about in our last segment with the congressman. How will things get done in the midst of all this?

Who is Kathy Hochul, who might become the next governor? With me now to talk about this and to update us on the latest news out of Albany is Josefa Velasquez, senior reporter for the news organization THE CITY. Hey, Josefa, welcome back to WNYC.

Josefa Velasquez: Hey, Brian, thanks so much for having me, busy week we're having.

Brian Lehrer: On some breaking news this morning in fact, I see the Assembly in its Impeachment Inquiry just gave Cuomo a deadline of next Friday, August 13 to produce evidence in his defense, what does that deadline mean?

Josefa Velasquez: Basically, the governor's office has until Friday the 13th to come up with any supporting material to the Assembly's Judiciary Committee, which is investigating several claims or several allegations levied against the governor, including sexual harassment, his administration's handling of nursing home debts, his $5 million book deal and the construction of the new Tappan Zee Bridge.

The committee is doing all of this because the Assembly is the first step for the impeachment process, the Assembly needs to pass a resolution with articles of impeachment, and to do so it needs to find grounds for impeachment. Unfortunately, the state constitution has no explanation on what those grounds can be. Really, we're going in somewhat blind here, because New York has only ever impeached one governor more than 100 years ago.

Just to make sure that all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed, the Assembly's Judiciary Committee is doing this investigation to find grounds for impeachment. Now the clock is running out on the governor and if he doesn't resign, he faces almost certain impeachment at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Any indication that the governor will resign now that political support has collapsed so thoroughly?

Josefa Velasquez: None as of right now. We've been talking to people in his orbit, people who have talked to the governor and his top aides and they've all resoundingly said that the governor is not resigning, he will not resign despite the fact that it's very clear that there is enough support both in the Assembly and likely enough support in the State Senate to impeach him at this point.

He is resolute in his decision, it seems like. Yesterday, there were mutterings that he would be having a press conference, and his aides have mentioned to him that it wasn't a good idea, but he really wants to get out in front of the public to "tell his side of the story" and to explain all of this that's been happening with the backdrop of this report from the Attorney General but as of right now, Andrew Cuomo is staying Governor.

Brian Lehrer: Andrew Cuomo is staying Governor. Listeners, we can take your comments and questions, questions very much welcome about the procedure of impeaching the governor or deciding whether to impeach the governor, which is in the lap of the state Assembly right now, 646-435-7280 for our correspondent Josefa Velasquez from the news organization THE CITY, 646-435-7280 or you can tweet your question or your comment @BrianLehrer.

Josefa, I saw an analysis on New York One last night that said the Assembly as it goes forward, presumably with an impeachment inquiry, and then, based on the numbers, the headcount so far in the Assembly probably an actual impeachment of the governor, that they better be really careful because Cuomo is a smart lawyer and at any turn, he's going to take them to court on process, if not on content, and challenge the way it's being done and that lands in the office of the-- or I should say, what do you call it? Not an office, what do you call where a court sits? In the chambers of the state court of appeals, the highest court in the state, and guess who appointed all seven justices, Andrew Cuomo.

Josefa Velasquez: Right. That's where I think the Assembly is really trying to make sure that whatever they come up with is rock solid and that's why this process might be moving on a little bit more slowly than some of Cuomo's foes might hope for, so there is no precedent or at least no modern precedent for this. Like I said, the only time New York has impeached a governor was in 1913, and the Constitution doesn't spell out a lot of things, leaving it up for interpretation and giving the legislature a lot of discretion on how it handles this.

At the same time, like you mentioned, Brian, Andrew Cuomo is a brilliant political tactician. He still has quite a considerable amount of campaign cash and he could find a way to outmaneuver the legislature on this, whether it is legally or politically. Right now, we're really in this very tenuous ground here where the legislature is trying to make sure that they are plugging up any hole possible to prevent the governor and his team from wiggling out of this impeachment.

Brian Lehrer: One thing about how impeachment works that we might need to correct from something I said on the show the other day, based on what I had read, I had read that if an impeachment takes place, which means basically an indictment of the governor by the state Assembly. When he goes to trial in the State Senate, the Lieutenant Governor at that point takes over. That would be different. If it's true, then at the federal level, of course, the President of the United States impeached by the House, then goes on to stand trial in the Senate but remains in office.

I had read and I'd heard a number of people talking about how in New York State's impeachment law, the Lieutenant Governor takes off at the point of impeachment, and the governor can come back if he's acquitted in the Senate in the impeachment trial. Now, I've heard that it's actually unclear whether that happens, and that in and of itself might be a point of contention if it gets that far. What's your understanding?

Josefa Velasquez: I've talked to a lot of people who've been studying this issue since March when the sexual harassment allegations first surfaced, and like you said, it's really unclear what happens. Some folks say that the second that the Assembly passes the impeachment resolution, the governor is removed from his position and Lieutenant Governor Kathy Hochul become the Acting Lieutenant Governor.

Others say that it's the second that the Senate starts the trial, the governor gets removed and Lieutenant Governor becomes governor, but there's so much we don't know about how this process works. We have a little bit of guidelines that really it's going to be up to the legislature, the courts, lawyers to determine how this all plays out because we're building the airplane as we're flying it right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Michael in Huntington. You're on WNYC with Josefa Velasquez from THE CITY. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Oh, yes. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. Basically, I'm a longtime state employee and just wanted to make the point that the toxicity of the Cuomo regime has percolated down to every agency. They all play by the same playbook. It's really the kind of micromanagement and "my way or the highway" it's everywhere in the state. If he's removed from office, I think a lot of people will be breathing a sigh of relief.

Brian Lehrer: Have you worked in state as a state employee long enough to say if it was any different under previous governors?

Michael: I've been on board over 20 years. I'd say that under Pataki, there was more of a hands-off approach. Spitzer, he wasn't there long enough to really make an impression, but this guy, his appointees are uniformly-- it's like a cult.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, thank you very much. Josefa, for you who cover state politics, I don't know if you get into the guts of state agencies like that, but do you have any reporting that backs up or refutes what Michael as a state employee is saying?

Josefa Velasquez: For years, we've heard a similar thing, where when Andrew Cuomo took office, he really consolidated power. State agencies, which had relative autonomy, all had to have everything cleared through the Governor first before doing anything. We're talking questions from reporters. Everything has to go through the Governor's office before it is distributed to reporters or whoever else.

It's really this consolidation of power and putting his allies into-- positioned as agency heads or embedded into agencies themselves. If there's one thing that we see from this Attorney General's report is that there is a group of people that are fiercely loyal to the Governor and have remained so even through all of these allegations and this entire report, which wasn't even a bombshell, it was a nuclear blast through state government and through city government.

Brian Lehrer: MD in Morristown, you're on WNYC. Hi, there. Thank you for calling in.

MD: Hi, there. I just wanted to chime in and say, hey, I'm not in any way trying to condone what he's done, but is there any way he could finish this term? Look at his leadership and look at what he's led New York through. He was one of the top Governors to come in and step in when COVID was ravaging the United States. My point being is, he's not the first politician to have done this. Again, the Delta variant's coming up and to have a change in leadership now just so that the Democrats could make a statement. I just feel like there's got to be a way he can finish this term and lead New York through what has been the most difficult phase of New York for quite a while and we can't just overlook that. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: The one argument against that-- I'm curious how you would react to this counter-argument, MD, which is that it's not just for the Democrats to "make a statement", as you say, but it's to set a really important standard and hold themselves accountable to a standard of decency in management that does not overlook 11 documented instances of sexual harassment just because somebody is good at their job.

MD: Oh, by no means. I'm not saying that he should not be held accountable, but that standard of decency, what you're talking about-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: What's accountability?

MD: Accountability, that's what they have to figure out as leaders. I'm saying I agree, but I feel like that standard of decency and accountability, that those two words don't exist in Congress or in Senate, otherwise our country wouldn't be in the state that we're in because everything's about Democrats versus Republicans, it's no longer about what's best for this country. The bigger argument is why we're falling behind as a country, as a whole in the world.

Brian Lehrer: MD, thank you. I'm going to leave it there. Thank you very much. Please do call us again. There's a lot in there, Josefa, but there's a theme that I've heard from other callers as well. Trump and other Republican sexual harassers get away with it, therefore the Democrats shouldn't kick their leaders out and be the only ones who have to "suffer" as a result of these kinds of behaviors.

I have to say, it makes no sense to me just because the Republicans won't hold their leaders to a standard of decency and accountability, doesn't mean the Democrats should, but are you hearing that?

Josefa Velasquez: Yes. It seems that in the last couple of days there definitely have been people who have said, "There's a double standard here", especially people who are supporting the Governor that Donald Trump was able to get away with it, why can't Andrew Cuomo be given that same opportunity? To that, a lot of people who are calling for Cuomo's resignation say that every single day that he remains in office is another opportunity for him to sexually harass people who work with him.

That's something that needs to be weighed in on this that the Attorney General's report spelled out, not just sexual harassment allegations, but also a toxic workplace that normalized a lot of this behavior. I think, at this point, there are obviously going to be people who say that it's unfair that Democrats are putting their own out into the wild and trying to get rid of him. If you're going to be the party that runs on morality and accountability, you can't just turn a blind eye to one that's happened in your backyard.

Brian Lehrer: The other thing that that caller was saying at the beginning of his call had to do with the crisis that the state is in still with coronavirus and other big work that the state has to do. How is it proceeding for you as a reporter who covers state government, even right now with Cuomo's power even more diminished than it was? How are things getting done right now as far as you could tell? If he is impeached and Kathy Hochul does take over, the Lieutenant Governor becomes Governor, how seamlessly can the work of the state get done as far as anybody could tell?

Josefa Velasquez: Right now the legislature is not in session. They go back into the legislative session in January. Of course, they can call some sort of emergency, which they likely will, to handle legislative matters, but, like you mentioned, we're still in the midst of a pandemic, there's rising concern about the Delta variant. We're about to enter the school year and we don't have a plan for reopening.

A lot of lawmakers and even some of the Governor's longtime supporters, like the head of the Democratic Party yesterday said that this is a distraction. You can't govern when you have these allegations and this report looming over your head. It makes trying to do the daily functions of government exceedingly difficult even if you didn't have a pandemic going on, but you have that as a backdrop, so--

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's so interesting. Can I highlight that? Can we linger on that for just a second, Josefa? Because the argument that we're hearing from a number of callers over the past days is there's so much important work for government to do right now, especially with the Delta variant that it's not a good time for this impeachment process, but you're quoting the head of the state Democratic Party, long time, really tight ally of Governor Cuomo saying, "No, it's the opposite. It's the fact that the governor has been accused of all these things and there has to be a process, it's the fact that the Governor is still there that's holding up the ability to govern."

Josefa Velasquez: A lot of lawmakers are saying that, too. We are at this critical juncture in New York where the cases of COVID are not as high as they once were. We're seeing mounting cases in Florida and other parts of the country and we don't want that to happen in New York. We already went through that in the spring of 2020. Really now it's going to be a question of if Kathy Hochul takes over, how seamlessly can that transition of power happen? The people around her, can they shepherd her into this position without disruptions in how government functions?

I think that is something that is lingering over everyone's head and the governor, since these allegations first surfaced in March, was really buying some time for himself and trying to make everything about COVID to distract from all of these investigations he is under.

That's something that people are concerned about that if Andrew Cuomo can serve the rest of his term, he's just going to buy himself more time and then run again for a fourth term. That is something that is on the forefront of a lot of lawmakers' minds of how long can he stay in office while this is all happening, and everything else that is important just falling by the wayside?

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are a New York and New Jersey Public Radio. Few more minutes with Josefa Velasquez, senior reporter for the news organization THE CITY, who covers state politics and is covering the Cuomo situation. Lou on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lou.

Lou: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for calling in. Go ahead.

Lou: [chuckles] I'm one of those die-hard Liberal Democrats who said when the allegations first came out against the governor that I personally will wait and see since he have appointed a commission to investigate it. When the AG agreed to take the case, I decided, I said, "Okay, you know what, let's give the man a chance. Let the report come in. He has agreed for the report to go on and the report is on."

I waited, I waited, I waited and it came on. It states clearly that this man did what he's accused of, sexually abused these women, harassed them, made it uncomfortable for them to earn a living. Now, are we to say that because he's an astute, and intelligent, and able politician so we get rid of his character? We ignore it? If that's the case, then what is the message that we are sending to the children, the next future leaders of this great state of ours?

There has to be a difference between character, astuteness, and intelligence. I mean, enough is enough. He's capable, yes, but there are other people who are more capable than he is when they come on his scene. Usually, the challenges come and politicians live up to that challenge. That's how come we decide how capable they are. As in JFK, blah, blah, blah, FDR and those kind of instances. This is about character, Brian, this is not just about showmanship looking good, flushing your head. No.

He did well during the pandemic. I commend him for that, but I am more concerned about the character. Talking about the constitution of a state where it has never impeached anyone for the past 100 years, well, constitutions are written for the living, you can make an adjustment to it. Adjust the rules because that's what constitutions are. They are not just something on a wall, they're rules written by men and women.

I heard someone earlier call say Mr. Cuomo should stay there, he did a great job, he touched a few girls. Whereas a traditional African, suppose those few girls were your mother, your wife, your daughter, your mother-in-law, how would you feel, what would be the interpretation? Again, it comes to character, there has to be character among our leaders.

It's because maybe just all who vote for these people don't really know them. Maybe we're just there for the paycheck, for the opportunity to be seen and all the kind of stuff there. That's how we enable these guys to keep on doing this.

Donald Trump didn't get away with it. I have been going out with a very strong Republican woman who voted against Donald Trump. A lot of them voted against him. The electors in those states, did they agree with him that the election was stolen? This is about character, Brian. At some point, we have to say enough is enough, the children are watching. The children are watching.

Brian Lehrer: Lou, I hear you. Thank you for all of that. I really, really appreciate it. Keep calling us. Karen in State College Pennsylvania, you're on WNYC. Hi, Karen.

Karen: Hi. As I told you at screener, I'm a big fan of Cuomo and I never voted for him in the primary. The sexual harassment allegations are horrendous, but my question is, what are the criteria for impeachment? Because it seems like the sexual harassment issue is more something for the courts, whereas the allegations of whatever he was doing with the nursing homes and shutting down investigations and such, that seems more grounds for impeachment. What are the criteria for impeachment in the state of New York? That's my question.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Karen. Is there an easy answer to her question about the grounds for impeachment under New York State law or the Constitution, Josefa?

Josefa Velasquez: It's a great question and one that everyone's trying to figure out. There is no criteria spelled out for grounds for impeachment. Really, it's up to interpretation and that's where we're in this strange situation with what can be considered inappropriate, or behavior that is unbecoming of the governor? To Karen's point, we don't have grounds, there's nothing that spells out what grounds for impeachment--

Brian Lehrer: There's nothing like the equivalent of high crimes and misdemeanors at the federal level?

Josefa Velasquez: No. The state constitution just says if the Assembly finds grounds for impeachment, and no point defines what that is. Really now it's up to interpretation, which is why this Assembly Judiciary Committee is doing its own parallel investigation right now because there is no definition of it. They're trying to make sure that they have a slew of evidence and to make sure that they can try to explain what they think grounds for impeachment means.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know why sexual serial harassment, and the toxic workplace environment and retaliation that the Attorney General found goes with it would not be for the political impeachment process and only for the courts, as the caller suggested, but we do know, Josefa, that the sexual misconduct findings are by no means the only matter for which the governor has come under scrutiny.

The various things related to the nursing home scandal and covering up the nursing home scandal, will that also wind up, any of those things, wind up, as far as you could tell, in the impeachment articles if they, in fact, come out of the Assembly?

Josefa Velasquez: Certainly, it seems that the Assembly isn't just limiting its impeachment investigation to the sexual harassment allegations. They have been requesting documents related to the nursing home scandal, whether or not members of his administration helped him write a million-dollar memoir about the pandemic. It's not just going to be the sexual harassment accusations that are going to make it into these grounds for impeachment.

To an earlier point, the report didn't just lay out a toxic workplace environment and sexual harassment allegations, the Attorney General and her investigators also found that the governor broke state and federal laws in sexually harassing these women. At the end of the day, it's a civil matter but enough to-- District Attorneys for varying counties have requested this information. At least the Albany County District Attorney said that there's an ongoing criminal investigation into this as well. There are, at least from what we've heard in the Attorney General's report, some laws were broken.

Brian Lehrer: It's going to be a very complicated senate trial of Governor Cuomo if they're having to deal with everything in the Attorney General's report on this topic, and things like officially undercounting the number of deaths in nursing homes so he could put it in his book as more of a victory and things like that. It's going to be a very complicated trial.

Just to end with a little follow up on what you just brought up about the possible criminal violations that are at least implied in the Attorney General's report, because one of the other developments of the last day, as you know, is that prosecutors from Manhattan, Westchester, and Albany are asking for material from the Attorney General's report. What are the potential crimes that these DAs would be investigating?

Josefa Velasquez: Spelled out in the report, there are allegations that the governor touched women without their consent and that is illegal under state law. There's that that the governor will have to contend with. Not only just a criminal matter, there's also civil liabilities. The governor is now being sued by one of his former aides, Lindsey Boylan, and there's probably more lawsuits to come.

At this point, we don't know how this is going to shake out. We are waiting on bated breath, whether we do go into the impeachment process or whether he resigns before that and what happens to Andrew Cuomo and his legacy, and whether or not any of these district attorneys find grounds for criminal prosecution.

I think several people have pointed out, and several reporters and lawyers, seldom does sexual harassment rise to the level of criminality because it is largely a civil matter. This could be precedent-setting if it does get to that point.

Brian Lehrer: Josefa Velasquez, senior reporter for the news organization THE CITY. Thank you so much.

Josefa Velasquez: Thank you for having me.

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