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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC, good morning, everyone. One question in the Andrew Cuomo impeachment process right now is how fast things will go and how fast they should. We learned yesterday that public impeachment hearings in the Assembly Judiciary Committee, public hearings could begin in two weeks, followed by an impeachment vote as early as September. There are those arguing it's going too quickly and those arguing it's going to slowly, getting the pace right could matter a lot to the outcome and to justice for the future.

Another question is whether the governor is trying to cut a deal and if anyone should accept it, for him to finish out his term with no impeachment if he promises not to run for re-election next year. Would that provide enough justice for the 11 women, the Attorney General says he sexually harassed? The third question as support for the governor has collapsed among state politicians and employees as his top aide and enforcer Melissa de Rosa has now even resigned, who's left defending him? The answer to that question seems to include people who have left Cuomo's office, which is why journalist Josefa Velásquez has an article on the new site the city today called inside Cuomo's Hotel California for Albany aides, you can never leave. Josefa Velásquez is joining joins me now hi Josefa Welcome back to WNYC.

Josefa Velásquez: Hey, Brian, I appreciate you having me on. It's been a whirlwind the last seven days.

Brian Lehrer: I guess so, and let's begin with the timeline and we'll get to the Hotel California, assembly impeachment hearings in two weeks?

Josefa Velásquez: Yesterday, the Assembly Judiciary Committee, which is charged with finding grounds for impeachment against the governor, held a hearing which they've been doing all summer, but this one had more weight behind it than previous ones. This is the first meeting that they had after the Attorney General's report came out, which said that the governor sexually harassed 11 women working in and around his office.

Yesterday's meeting laid out the clearest timeline for events. Like you mentioned, the Assembly Judiciary Committee is going to have a series of public and private hearings. The public ones, they want to hear from experts in the field of sexual harassment and impeachment because this is only the second time New York will embark on trying to impeach a governor. The first time that that happened was in 1913, so there's no modern precedent for it. The state constitution now offers little guidance on how it works.

I think the biggest cause for concern among lawmakers is that they want this case, they want the impeachment to be as solid as humanly possible because they know and recognize that Andrew Cuomo is for lack of a better term, a brilliant political tactician that will, outmaneuver them and take all of this to court. They want to make sure that their case against the governor and is as solid as humanly possible.

Brian Lehrer: This idea that Cuomo might take them to court in the middle of the impeachment process to challenge the impeachment process, I've been hearing that, but we've had two guests on the show in the last week, including a New York State Constitution expert yesterday, who said they don't think the governor could take the impeachment process to court because the Constitution gives the legislature such wide latitude to determine what's impeachable and how to conduct the process.

The judicial branch, in general, around the country, federal level state level, is reluctant in general to interfere with impeachment, which is a legislative branch prerogative. What kinds of lawsuits are people concerned that Cuomo might bring if they're being specific?

Josefa Velásquez: I think because this is an unprecedented moment, no one really knows what lawsuits the governor might bring, or his lawyers might bring on this. There were questions yesterday for the head of the Judiciary Committee, Chuck Levine, as to can you bring it in a governor towards impeachment proceedings, if there was no crime committed if there's no felony involved, and Chuck Levine who is a Democrat from Long Island said that you don't need a crime, all you need to do is prove that there's corruption in the office.

Really, I think everyone is going into unchartered territory, trying to figure out what could possibly have been and how do we mitigate that in the event that the governor does sue for to challenge the grounds of impeachment or the process itself. I can't overstate this enough, we have no idea how this plays out, because there's nothing to indicate how this works. I've heard from multiple sources that the State Senate is interviewing and talking to a lot of impeachment, legal scholars, and lawyers to understand how this process works in other states, and how a trial might occur in New York, given that we don't have much experience with it at all.

Brian Lehrer: You report probably two hearings in the assembly, with the witnesses being impeachment experts, and sexual harassment experts. Is that still what you're hearing?

Josefa Velásquez: Yes, that's what we're hearing right now. The assembly really wants to know, how could the impeachment process work? What are things that they need to look out for? How do they build the strongest argument against the governor? The impeachment process in New York starts with the assembly and unlike the federal impeachment process, the moment that the assembly votes to pass the resolution to impeach the governor, the governor is removed from office. The Lieutenant Governor, Kathy Hochul, becomes the acting governor.

In this case, if Andrew Cuomo were to get impeached, he would be removed from the office during not just from the moment that the assembly votes to pass that resolution, but throughout the entire trial that occurs in the Senate. Only if he's acquitted is he had reinstated. So, I think that's where people are trying to make sure that they understand the legal precedent, for removing the governor, whether it's temporarily through this process or permanently.

Brian Lehrer: These two public hearings that we're expecting this month, they wouldn't be getting into the specifics of the charges, just a theoretical framework for impeachment and sexual harassment law?

Josefa Velásquez: It seems that that's the case right now. Obviously, that could change, but really, it's a fact-finding hearing to understand how does sexual harassment occur in the workplace, and its reverberating effects through, not only for some of the people who experienced it, but how does that create and foster a toxic culture. There are also private hearings that will be occurring as well, where if there's a possibility that the witnesses will be called in front of the Judiciary Committee to speak to them.

There's also, over the next month, there might be other things that come up. The assembly judiciary's investigation isn't just limited to sexual harassment, it also is investigating whether the governor gave preferential testing to his inner circle during the early days of the pandemic when testing was scarce, as well as his administration's handling of nursing home deaths, and his $5.1 million dollar pandemic memoir. It's a lot of things that they have to look into over the course of the next couple of weeks.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, here is the Assembly Judiciary Committee Chairman, Charles Levine on the potential scope of the impeachment charges.

Charles Levine: On the nursing home question alone, there are more than half a million pages of documentation.

Brian Lehrer: Josefa, are they planning hearings on all of those things that you just mentioned before an impeachment vote, or just the sexual harassment charges for now?

Josefa Velásquez: It seems that it's just limited to the sexual harassment charges for now. The assembly is still getting documentation from the attorney general's office, that they collected through the course of their five-month investigation into sexual harassment allegations, and are planning on taking some of the underlying evidence putting it in a "secure room", and have members inspect it.

Right now, it seems that the assembly's investigation was broad, because they wanted to make sure that they could have at least one thing that they could have find impeachment grounds on against the governor, but really the strongest possible thing that has come out of it has been these sexual harassment allegations.

Brian Lehrer: Why would some of the evidence and some of the hearings be held privately not in public hearings or what otherwise in public view? Is it for the confidentiality of the women and some of the things that they say about what happened to them or the confidentiality of some people's personnel or human resources records, but even with that confidentiality in mind, as a matter of respect, if that's the reason, does that damage the public's ability to make a clear and definitive choice about what they think should happen?

Josefa Velásquez: I think it's all of the above. When you are talking about sexual harassment, it is a very sensitive subject and there are things that didn't make it into the Attorney General's report that are very personal and can be triggering for a lot of people. At this point, we don't know necessarily what's in the underlying evidence, but what we do know is that it's a lot of really sensitive information.

There's also people who spoke to investigators who aren't named in the report, who did so maybe without the governor's office knowing about it, so there is this fear that there might be retaliated against by their employer and that's a very real fear that they have. My news outlet, we've been talking to former Cuomo administration officials, who to this day, even though they've left the employ of the governor years ago, are still worried about the repercussions of talking publicly about him.

There has been this chilling effect, that if these transcripts were released widely, without any redactions, that it could scare other people into talking in the future with investigators. The governor is under investigation now by several other entities, including a couple of district attorneys. We don't know if this is the beginning of something larger or if we're in the middle of it, but at this point, it seems that the reason that this evidence has not been publicly made available is because there's some really damaging information in there, not just for the governor and his sphere of aides, but also for some of the women who talk to the Attorney General's investigators, and other people who spoke have spoken with them as well.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners your questions are welcome here for Josefa Velasquez, reporter for the news organization THE CITY about the Cuomo impeachment process and contact 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or tweet your question @BrianLehrer. Here's a tweet, Josefa, that came in a minute ago. It says, "The assembly pace is too slow. They have votes to impeach and there's plenty of evidence of corruption on many levels. New York State Government is at a standstill in the midst of COVID." It concludes, "Get Cuomo out of his seat and let Hochul run this state, so that's one listener. Who else is pressuring the legislature to move faster than they're moving and why?

Josefa Velásquez: There's been a push from the very progressive left to get the legislature to act more quickly. They've been calling for the governor's resignation since March when a bulk of these allegations were first made public and really because there's no precedent about this, we don't know what is acting quickly versus slowly, William Salter, the last governor to be impeached in New York, from the moment that the assembly took up the vote to impeach him to the end of the trial took about two months.

Right now, I think, because we're in modern times, it is perhaps going more slowly than people expect or want, but that's because we don't have anything to point to or help or guidance on how this process is. It's really just a lot of people in the dark right now trying to talk to lawyers to get advice on how this thing goes. The problem with moving something like this quickly is that if the assembly doesn't do it correctly at the first go-around, then there is a lot of room for the governor to outmaneuver them, and that's one of the things that the head of the Judiciary Committee said yesterday is that if we don't do this right, and he's acquitted, the governor is going to come back with the fury of 1000 suns and that is something that everyone is really mindful and careful. There are still people who say that this is not moving fast enough, but an impeachment is not something to be taken lightly and could take some time.

Brian Lehrer: To the Twitter users point, one of their points, that says, "New York government is at a standstill, in the midst of COVID." How true do you think that is? Are the agencies doing their work and the agency heads being able to do what needs to be done with respect to COVID response or anything else, despite the governor being politically paralyzed at this moment, or are things at a standstill, with the governor so weakened and isolated?

Josefa Velásquez: I think the government, in general, is someone at a standstill, because Andrew Cuomo for the last 10 years, has really consolidated power within his office, so agencies and different groups really have to go through the governor's office for everything. We're talking about the health department, the MTA, nothing is done in those agencies without the governor's office having input on it. You also have to think about the fact that in about a month, kids are going to be going back to school. There's still a lot of uncertainty about mask mandates and what can localities do.

At the same time, the eviction moratorium in New York is coming to an expiration, and we have a rise in the number of COVID cases largely driven by the Delta variant. A lot of lawmakers are saying the governor is in a distraction. We are at this critical juncture in the pandemic, and there is no leadership because he's being completely consumed by all of these investigations.

Now, I do think that there are mechanisms set up in government to keep the lights on but there's a lot of things that are going to be happening in the next couple of weeks that New York needs leadership on.

Brian Lehrer: Nina in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nina. Thanks for calling in.

Nina: Oh, thank you for taking my call. It strikes me that the governor hasn't quite gotten to the level of Brett Kavanaugh, but it seems to so in some respects, he's taking the Brett Kavanaugh approach. It never happened. It's an exaggeration, and it's in one way or another needs further elucidation. Obviously, it does, but not to the governor's advantage, but more to my question is, how is what is alleged not a criminal offense, and I'm thinking of the Federal Violence Against Women Act, and does that not cover sexual abuse?

Brian Lehrer: Josefa, I know you're not a lawyer, but how much can you answer Nina's question?

Josefa Velásquez: It seems that the most grievous of the allegations is under criminal investigation by the Albany District Attorney. The Albany County Sheriff held a press conference on Saturday, saying that the governor is under investigation. They're in their early stages, but really, the most they could possibly get out of the situation with the information that's currently available is a misdemeanor.

I think it was unwanted touching or something to that effect and unless there are other allegations that we haven't yet known about. A lot of what is being alleged in the Attorney General's report are really civil matters. Unfortunately, sexual harassment does not rise to the occasion of a criminal issue, both in the state and federally so that's the most that they can the prosecutors or investigators rather have been able to say about this. There have been issues raised about retaliation and whether that the leak of one of the aides personnel records to members of the media violated state and federal civil laws but right now, we're at this point where I think the conversation around sexual harassment and cases against gender-based discrimination are really coming to the forefront, and there might be changes on the horizon that arise out of this too.

Brian Lehrer: There was a line of course where sexual harassment does cross into illegal activity. I'm not sure if assault is the exact charge that the Albany DA is looking into with respect to the groping that the woman Ms. Comiso charged executive assistant number one, who came out and went on television yesterday. These alleged groping incidents, which may rise to the level of assault, but I think as it pertains to impeachment, it doesn't have to be a crime. I've heard Josefa confirm for me if you think this is right, that the overall charge, the overall ground for impeachment, as it gets laid out, could be abuse of power, which could be an impeachable offense without being a criminal offense.

Josefa Velásquez: Yes, that's something that had the judiciary committee said yesterday that the grounds for impeachment just basically have to lay out that you abused your power, you abused your office, it doesn't necessarily state that you needed to have done something illegal. I think the way that Chuck Levine explained it was corruption doesn't have to involve a crime per se, it's just an abuse of your office. That's what we're looking at here.

The governor hasn't been charged with anything as of right now, but there are questions that remained about whether he did abuse his power as the chief executive and use that power to grope and to sexually harass women in his office, but there's also this underlying issue that the governor's attorneys haven't yet talked about, which is the officer's role in failing to comply with a lot of the procedures that they put in place to root out sexual harassment.

At the end of the day, a lot of folks in the governor's office did not report some of these allegations to the proper authorities, whether it's the HR equivalent, and that they took steps to retaliate against people. That's something that now I'm waiting to get clarification on because the focus has been on one woman's allegations against the governor, which is Ms. Comiso, but really we haven't heard about how the processes failed in the governor's office. We haven't heard about the state trooper that says that the governor also harassed her and touched her in an elevator. Right now, I think, we're in this holding pattern with the lawyers or the governor waiting to hear more from them.

Brian Lehrer: To the caller's other point, that Cuomo seems to be taking a Brett Kavanaugh approach, I don't know exactly what she means by that, but one way to think about the Brett Kavanaugh approach, I guess, would be, remember that the first day of those hearings, Christine Blasey Ford came out and gave her testimony. She was so credible to so many people that a lot of folks, even some Republicans at the time that morning concluded Kavanaugh is toast, he's not going to be able to survive this. Then how did he come back after lunch that day? He came back angry. He came back like he was the victim here in his denial.

I think Cuomo is taking a page from that book. Even though he has no political support remaining apparently among even members of his own party in the state legislature, maybe what he's trying to do is convince enough of the public that he's being railroaded here through his indignation and hoping to survive that way. By inserting enough doubt into enough of the stories that suddenly everybody's overreaching against him and he's the victim here. Why is everybody going after Andrew Cuomo when the facts are really muddy and being able to survive in that Brett Kavanaugh way? Would you say?

Josefa Velásquez: Definitely. We haven't heard from the governor since the report came out. He had a pre-taped rebuttal that really lacked in addressing a lot of what the report alleged. His lawyers have subsequently spoken out to the press in a series of Zoom calls and on TV. His lawyers are going to have another one this afternoon, but really they're trying to paint the governor as the victim.

The report itself states that some of the governor's aides were even trying to discredit one of the governors former aides, Lindsay Boylan, as having connections with the Trump administration and sort of fostering this conspiracy theory that she was using these allegations to run for office, which, to my knowledge, I don't think she ever really talked about it, or it wasn't something that was pivotal to her Manhattan Borough President run.

Right now, it's the governor trying to cast doubt on all these allegations by really focusing on the smaller details of them rather than the overall picture and he's not without his supporters. There are hundreds probably of "Cuomosexuals" that emerged during the pandemic and during his briefings that are still his staunch supporters. My Twitter mentions, my email is bombarded with people saying, "You're being unfair. This is all a conspiracy and it's very Trump-like in its response."

Honestly, I think there's a lot of things between the response that Andrew Cuomo has offered and that his supporters have offered that mirrors some of the Make America Great Again folks have been doing over the course of the last few years where it is not something that the governor did, and there is a larger conspiracy at play here that is seeking to undermine this governor who has shepherded New York through the worst of the pandemic. It's concerning. Honestly, I think a lot of reporters in New York particularly have been under attack by some of his supporters and it's scary.

Brian Lehrer: We get calls on various sides of this question too to be sure. We'll continue in a minute with Josefa Velásquez from the news organization, The City reporting on the Cuomo impeachment process. We'll get into a deal that Josefa is reporting that Cuomo may be floating under which he would avoid impeachment, but just not run for office again next year, stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Josefa Velásquez reporter for the news organization, The City on the Cuomo impeachment process. Mark in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi Mark. Thank you for calling in.

Mark: Yes. Good morning. I'm calling to ask your guest a question regarding Cuomo possible impeachment. I think there was two mistakes in my opinion, made here. One by Cuomo by asking James to investigate. James is really [inaudible 00:28:40]. There is a possibility that she exaggerated things and there is a bigger mistake is in now being as the Democrat. They could have done this discreetly instead of in the public domain.

They could have negotiated a deal with Cuomo. Like he finish his term with dignity then doesn't run again and everybody would be happy. Yet everything is blown at the market now and everybody's giving their opinion and this and that. I think that would have been a better deal. The Republicans are really laughing because they think that the Democrats have really, they call it fighting each other and that's a good point for them for the next election.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Mark. Let's deal with both of those main points Josefa. First on the possibility of Cuomo cutting a deal. He was describing the exact deal that you reported on yesterday, under which Cuomo would not run for re-election next year, but then the impeachment process would stop, but your report nobody's buying it. What can you tell us?

Josefa Velásquez: The governor and his top aides have spent the last few days calling state lawmakers, other state officials, basically saying he won't run for a fourth term. He can just exit gracefully without this impeachment over everyone's head, which is going to cost taxpayers millions of dollars and really be harmful for the image of Democrats, I think, nationally, but at this point, the train has left the station.

I think from what I heard from numbers was that had he just done this in March? Maybe that's something that people would have obliged by, but it's too late. Now, this report is too damaging and lays out how his office works and the extent of the governor's conduct, which once the cat's out of the bag, you can't put it back in. If there isn't a move to impeach the governor, you could bet that every single member, both Republican and Democrat will be primaried for their inaction on this topic, which is something that they're all cognizant of.

Nationally speaking, there is concern that Cuomo dragging out this process can hurt Democrats in the midterms. I think that's why there has been this very forceful move to impeach the governor, because if you're the party that's run on morality and run as being the opposite of the Trump administration, then you can't sit idly by and let someone within your party get through unscathed. Right now, it seems that the governor and his aides are really running out of options on what to do on this. He doesn't have many allies left, if any, at all.

At this point, there's a crescendo of voices telling the governor to resign, but he's not listening, he's bunkering in and refusing to do so. I think the time to cut a deal has long passed and people in the legislature recognized that unless he resigns, they have to go through with this. There is no appetite to try to send Andrew Cuomo a lifeboat at this point. I think the best option, according to some lawmakers is for him to resign. Otherwise, he's going to drag New York through this painful ordeal.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an example of that collapse of support that you refer to. This is Assembly Speaker, Carl Heastie yesterday, a Democrat, of course, as leader of the assembly, pretty close ally of Cuomo for many years here is how Heastie characterized what support is left in his chamber yesterday.

Carl Heastie: The governors clearly lost the confidence of the majority members of the New York State Assembly. The Attorney General's report lays out and painful detail, the many instances and ways in which he reportedly harassed and created a hostile work environment for the employees of the executive chamber and others he came in contact with.

Brian Lehrer: Is anyone besides the governor's paid attorneys speaking in terms of having a reasonable doubt remaining about whether what's in this report, he actually did the last caller, and we were talking before about people in the general public who still have their doubts, even if the political sector has completely collapsed for him saying, "Well, look, maybe Latisha James really wants to run for governor, so she exaggerated some of this, who's left making that case besides callers to talk shows and tweeters to you?

Josefa Velásquez: Well, the governors attorney, certainly, and there are some still within the governor's inner circle who are trying to make that case, but the number of people that are willing to, at least, publicly support the governor are, I don't think any honestly, he is lost the support of the State Democratic Chairman, one of his staunchest allies for the last several years.

You could not get a bigger cheerleader for Andrew Cuomo than J. Jacobs, the head of the democratic party in New York. Even he has said that he's tried to tell the governor to resign in the last few days and the is just not hearing it. I don't know who is left that will defend the governor, but it's clear that he and his aides are trying to run the clock on this. They did it back in March.

There was this overwhelming call for the governor to resign and the governor pivoted made everything about COVID, COVID, COVID, and reopening New York. Eventually, a lot of that criticism against the governor went away. You saw state lawmakers who weeks before called Cuomo to resign, standing alongside of him at press conferences. He pivoted towards making the case against the rising gun violence and sit alongside the democratic nominee for mayor, Eric Adams and the attention over the sexual harassment allegations that have been looming over his head dissipated a bit.

I think they're trying to run that same playbook again this time, where they're trying to put time between the report and whatever the next steps are to so more support within the public. Part of that is getting, Andrew Cuomo to make his case. From what I've heard from people in his office is he's been clamoring to talk, get to talk to the public. He wants to do a press conference.

He wants to address these allegations because he thinks that he could make his case, but his aides and his lawyers have advised against it saying, this is not a good PR move. You could hurt yourself in this process but he really wants a chance to speak to the public because he thinks that these are allegations are being misunderstood, that this never happened but towards the course of that, he could end up making the case against themselves.

Brian Lehrer: I see that his Attorney, Rita Glavin is speaking again later this morning, we played a clip of her on yesterday's show. I'm sure there'll be many more to come that she seems to be getting into the position of the lead voice and lead face on behalf of Cuomo for as long as they determined that he should not be the one himself going out there but to finish up your article today called inside Cuomo's hotel, California for Albany aides, you can never leave. That's a quote from someone. It does pertain to people trying to discredit the accusers behind the scenes.

Josefa Velásquez: That was a quote that his former communications director gave the investigators at the AG's office. Really, it's somewhat of an internal joke within the Albany political sphere and the governor's office that now once you're involved in the orbit, you can't get out even as hard as you might try. That was one of the things that was so curious about the report is how many people were involved in shaping the governor's strategy throughout all of this, that weren't on the government's payroll.

There are folks that have long since left the governor's office, they work private jobs, and yet they are still attracted to this man. In the course of the last few years, I've heard from aides current and former about how difficult it is to leave the governor because he has a tremendous reach in New York and really nationally. There are people who said that they wanted to leave but saw their job offer get rescinded or were simply told, "No, you can't leave, not now." Even within some of the top aides to the governor and some of his top commissioners, it has been very difficult for some of them to leave government.

Now you're seeing on Twitter, which is everyone's favorite platform, how some of these officials are speaking out and saying, this has been-- he's fostered a culture where loyalty is above all else. It's not serving the people of New York, it's serving Andrew Cuomo and how hard it is to try to find a job elsewhere when your boss is one of the most powerful men in the country. It's a relationship that is reciprocated at the end of the day because some of these folks go on to work, these very powerful jobs in communications and lobbying.

It always turns out that they're, they have business before the state and they are hired because of their connections to the governor and his inner circle and understand how it works. It is mutually beneficial at the end of the day.

Brian Lehrer: Has that changed since the AG's report came out with so much corroboration last week is the Hotel Cuomo, the Hotel California, suddenly somewhere that people can leave, maybe even almost have to leave?

Josefa Velásquez: There has been a hemorrhaging of people from the governor's office in the last five months. A lot of the reasoning I've heard from folks, and I found out that they were leaving is, this was already planned. The pandemic really took a toll on us, both physically and mentally having to work every single day, 24 hours a day, basically. It's time-pressed to take a step back. That's been the out that a lot of these officials are giving.

Even now, despite this really damning bombshell report, a lot of people who work for the governor are still very scared of putting their name out there and publicly criticizing him. They're worried that they'll still be retaliated against. Andrew Cuomo is still in office. He still has power. Even though the allegations are damning, they're still scared of what he could do in the future.

Brian Lehrer: Josefa Velasquez, covering the Cuomo impeachment process for the news organization, THE CITY, her article today inside Cuomo's Hotel California for Albany aides, you can never leave. Josefa, thanks a lot.

Josefa Velásquez: Thank you for having me.

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