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Brian Lehrer: It's Brian Lehrer on WNYC and Governor Kathy Hochul is with us now. Governor, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Kathy Hochul: Thanks, Brian. I appreciate you having me on.

Brian Lehrer: I was telling the listeners that you schedule a disappearance with us before the subway shooting and before Lieutenant Governor Benjamin was arrested and resigned yesterday. With all of that, we didn't know if your schedule would permit you to keep the original plan. We appreciate that you have made some time for us this morning. How are you after the events of the last day?

Kathy Hochul: Well, it's been traumatic for all New Yorkers to have to witness what happened on the subway. I was on the subway trains yesterday evening just to get a sense of what people are feeling. It just proved to me, Brian, that New Yorkers are so resilient. It's almost like nothing fazes them, but we know deep down, there is a sense of anxiety about their safety.

I'm committed now more than ever to continue working with my partners in local government. I talked to Eric Adams yesterday, our MTA workers. I heard you had John on just a few minutes ago. We're outstanding in this. All the first responders I went to the hospital last night to see the parents of some of the teenage patients. I mean the incredible stress they're under.

I'm just here in person just to give them that love from all New Yorkers and show support, but also renew our commitment to dealing with the scourge of violence in our streets and restore that sense of safety that many of us had, the city it had just before this pandemic hit. We've got a lot of work to do yes. When we scheduled, Brian, I thought we'd be talking about the budget, but I'm here to talk about any topic that's on your mind.

Brian Lehrer: We will talk about the budget as we go. Obviously, you have been in the city after the shooting, you appeared with the NYPD commissioner at the first news conference yesterday in the noon hour, we carried that live. Then you did your own with MTA, Chief Janno Lieber and you were outside [unintelligible 00:02:05] Hospital last night. I saw that. What do you see as the state's role or your role as governor in addition to whatever the mayor and the city are doing?

Kathy Hochul: the state runs the MTA, so I have a very significant role in working with our MTA leadership to make sure we're are doing everything we can to restore a sense of normalcy. Literally, the trains were not running yesterday afternoon while the suspect who's still on the loose, but during the aftermath of this, making sure that we get back to normal.

I do have a role to play in this, and we do have MTA police who are highly trained and I'm working closely with NYPD. I appreciate the Mayor making the commitment to double the amount of police presence from the NYPD on the subways because that is the responsibility of the city. Very different from past administrations, I roll up my sleeves and work with the city and offer help wherever they need it. That's exactly what I conveyed to the mayor yesterday. We do have a role in that the state runs the MTA.

Brian Lehrer: You support Mayor Adams flooding the system with more police officers. This is a big topic of debate among our listeners. We have many who are for it. We have many who are against it. Some of the police critics are posting things like about how the police could never stop this kind of thing, no matter how many, but every turn-style jumper now gets ensnared in the criminal justice system leading to more bad and unnecessary outcomes for young Black and Brown people. What's your response to that kind of argument about the mayor Adams style, which I guess we could say is also the Kathy Hochul-style crackdown.

Kathy Hochul: No, we are focused on violent offenders truly. I want our police forces to be out there looking for suspicious individuals, carrying bags that may have something like gas canisters, or hatchets in them. They need to be vigilant focusing on the threats that are out there. I think this is going to be a temporary situation until the anxiety comes down. Think about people making that decision. Am I going to go into work today? We need people back in the city and this has been a huge disruption to our efforts to return that sense of safety and security and normalcy.

We understand, I would suspect this is not going to be a permanent situation. They will not be-- I'm not going to tell the Mayor what he should do and his police chief will handle this. We're not looking to lock up more young, Black, and Brown individuals than we have throughout our state's history, which is why I focus so much on the cannabis issue and making sure that we change our laws to make sure we're not focused on those individuals, low-level offenses.

No, that is not the priority right now. We're in the heat of a crisis. We still have an individual on the loose. I think you want to see more police down there and that should give confidence to people to know that they're going to be safe when they're heading off to school or to work. People were just yesterday, an ordinary day, that turned into a traumatic experience and literally terrorizing New Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: Separate from this moment where this guy is on the loose, it sounds like you either do support or you don't quite want to take a firm position and just leave it to them about the crackdown on small infractions in the subways.

Kathy Hochul: My focus on the subways right now is dealing with the larger issue of ensuring safety that we don't have shootings like we also had up in Harlem. It wasn't just the situation where individuals were harmed yesterday. It was also happening in another part of the subway. This is the higher level violent offenses that we are going to continue focusing on to restore a sense of safety for people on the subways.

I think most people will appreciate that, but we're also focusing on getting help for the mentally ill. There's a lot of people in our subways who have a cry for help and making sure that they get in a circumstance where they're getting treatment with compassion and help them lead a productive life, and that is what I'm focused on as well.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Governor Kathy Hochul. Our time is limited. Please keep your questions succinct and specific (212) 433-WNYC, (212) 433-9692. Just one more question about the crime situation, and then we'll rotate to some other things. On bail reform and the new changes to that law that you advocated, supporters of bail reform, as it was say there's no data linking it to any increase in crime, and cities other than New York that did not just loosen in bail laws saw bigger increases in murder, for example, during the pandemic, Philly, Houston, Portland, Oregon. Can you make a case based on data because critics think this is just about satisfying the right in an election year?

Kathy Hochul: No, it is not Brian and I can be very clear on that. Even when the initial bail reform was passed, I, as Lieutenant Governor, traveled the state talking about how proud we were to take away and finally abolish a system of injustice that existed throughout our history where two individuals accused of the exact same offense were treated differently based on how much money they had in their bank account.

An innocent person could be in jail or back home, but the difference was only money. It had nothing to do with what they were accused of. We wanted to change that, and I'm proud that those changes were made. That's why I even did an [unintelligible 00:07:32] a few weeks ago talking about, I said, "This is not undoing bail reform. The fundamental premise was right," but also there were areas where people hadn't even realized that were left out.

We saw a lot of retail theft and people brazenly going in and day after day after day, stealing from small drug stores. Next thing we know the drug stores are closing up shop. Many of our poor communities, Black and Brown's communities were senior need to get their prescriptions filled and people need to be able to make purchases. It had a [unintelligible 00:08:05] effect. Overall crime is up.

Therefore, when you look at the data, yes, it is skewed because it's up all over the country, but that wasn't the foundation for these changes. It was looking at areas that need to be addressed, whether it was violent offenses and gun crimes that had not been included before, making sure that victims of hate crimes and domestic violence also didn't have their cases automatically dismissed based on a single piece of paper that might be missing. There are a lot of problematic loopholes and we closed them.

I will still defend Bail Reform. This has nothing to do with politics. I've been defending this since this had passed in 2019, and I'll show you, I went to parts of the state where it was not exactly welcome, but I stood up in defense of this. What we needed to do was look at this law again, but not just Bail Reform. We looked at discovery changes. We looked at the mental health law, Kendra's law. It was really a comprehensive approach where I didn't blame Bail Reform itself, but I said, we can always do better.

We always can do better, and that's exactly what we accomplished. It was a challenge. There was a lot of passion on both sides of the debate, but to tie this to election year, I don't pick the timing of this. I didn't pick the timing of becoming governor, but here we are dealing with what is an important issue that New Yorkers wanted to address, and that is dealing with the crime.

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, you're saying there was no data indicating that the Bail Reform law led to any increase in crime, but you thought the way it was on paper could potentially, is that a fair way to put it?

Kathy Hochul: There's different areas of data to look at. I mean, Bail Reform is a simplistic way of just talking about a larger issue. There were different parts of the law. There were parts pertaining to domestic violence and those had certain standards that had to be followed. What we said was that there should be the same analysis in determining whether someone should go either be

remanded or back on the streets, pending their trial depending on whether or not there was a gun involved, whether or not there was a past history, and to look at all other factors involved as well.

There was some data that showed cases-- Here's what happened Brian, the data showed that there was a slight increase by probably not enough to make a major change, but when you compound the fact that crime overall went up so exponentially, that actually was a large number of individuals who, before the bail laws would've been remanded or were bail eligible. That is actually more of a function of the scale as well, so the numbers were very high. There were high numbers in terms of repeat offenders and we can't ignore that in government.

We cannot ignore the fact that yes, crime got much worse. I'm not saying it's a result of bail reform, it never was. The pandemic had a major effect on people's security and sense of well-being and the mental health issues that really rose up and the root causes of crime when people lost their jobs and their ability to pay for their rent. These are all the issues that we had to deal with in our budget, making sure there was more money for people who could not make their rent, for landlords who had not received a payment for a long time and many of them were just small landlords.

Also, people got behind in utilities, we addressed that in the budget. The pandemic really exacerbated a lot. That's why we did not repeal the Bail Reform and that's why the right is not happy and I'm okay with that because we had a very strategic, thoughtful approach that ended up at the end of the day, accomplishing what we needed to do, which was to make the changes needed.

Brian Lehrer: You are getting it from both sides. Some on the left are saying too much bail reform, some on the right are saying fake bail reform. I'll definitely acknowledge that. All right. Next topic. The resignation of Lieutenant Governor Benjamin yesterday, do you have a replacement in mind?

Kathy Hochul: I hear you're one of the most popular guys in New York, Brian. I don't know what you're up to or not.

Brian Lehrer: If nominated, I will not run, if elected, I will not serve as someone would say.

Kathy Hochul: I just want to get that out there. No, we're going to go through a process right now. No, it was a surprise. It really was but it was clear to both of us that he could not continue to serve as Lieutenant governor. I want new Yorkers to have complete confidence in their government and let them know that I'm going to keep delivering for them and I'm going to find a real partner who continue to do the same as well.

We need a little bit of time, but we're going to continue to get it right because I pledge it. I was going to change the culture in Albany, and I'm not going to let any setbacks detract from that ultimate goal, which is to let people know we're going to continue changing that culture and it's going to happen under my watch.

Brian Lehrer: I've heard speculation that you might try to, poach is the word I heard this morning, the running mate of Tom Suozzi, who of course, is running against you in the democratic primary governor, the former New York city council member, Diana Reyna, who would be the first Dominican and first Dominican woman statewide official. Will you rule that in or out?

Kathy Hochul: I have not even heard that rumor, so no, this is very early in the process. Obviously, there's a lot of people to consider and really going through the background vetting process and determine the best route for it. No there's been absolutely no decisions made. It is too early at the process.

Brian Lehrer: At the time you selected Brian Benjamin as lieutenant governor, there were already questions, as I understand it about his campaign fundraising practices, the city, the nonprofit news outlet had found some instances of apparently fraudulent donations way back in January 2021. If you knew that, why did you still pick him?

Kathy Hochul: He filled out the background check forms and asked whether or not there had been investigations. We had been told that everything that had risen up had been addressed, everything was clean and that's what we were told at the process. I made the best decision I could with the information I had at that time, but clearly, we need to have a different process, a more strengthened, streamlined process that can get us to more detail than we had at the time.

We're obviously not aware that there had been investigations from federal authorities or even the district attorney's office at the time. Clearly, there would've been a different outcome had we been aware of that. I think that's pretty much a given, but [unintelligible 00:14:46] it's an opportunity for us to reset and to let people know that it was very unfortunate, very disappointing for me personally, how this played out, but you know what, we live to see another day.

This is the next day, I'm focused on so way issue, the shooting. I'm focused on delivering the message of what we accomplish in our budget, letting people all over the state know what we've done for them. I will not be detracted. There's one thing people know about me is, I am laser-focused and my only focus right now is doing what's best for New Yorkers and again, restoring faith in them after this setback, but we'll get through it. I'm very confident on that.

Brian Lehrer: One other thing on lieutenant governor, the elections, and I think a lot of people don't know this, this is a good thing, listeners for you to know, going into an election for governor and lieutenant governor, the elections for a governor and lieutenant governor are separate. It's not like president and vice president of the United States who you vote for as a unit.

The gubernatorial candidates are linking up with running mates, Reyna and Suozzi's case, [unintelligible 00:15:53] in Jumaane Williams case but you do vote separately for the one and the other. It's complicated as governor to get someone off the ballot at this point. Are you stuck with Brian Benjamin on the ballot who might be perceived as your running mate and you might suffer from that?

Kathy Hochul: We don't know right now at this time, this is something we're looking into, but you're right. The laws are very complicated and I think that's something worth looking at how difficult it is to have this circumstance happens or other circumstances occurs to be able to make a change after a certain deadline.

That's something we're examining right now, so I don't know that answer at this moment, but it'll all be clear as soon as we have a chance to do a dive into what our options are at this time. I'm not worried about it. I served as Lieutenant governor for seven years. I know the role, cold. I have Andre Stewart-Cousins who statutorily steps up in that capacity. I spoke to her yesterday. We have a very strong relationship, her as the majority leader of the Senate.

We always were friends, but it even deepened during the budget process. I feel confident that-- and the voters will understand, I need some time to let this flush out, get a new candidate if we're allowed to do that and if not, we'll just move on. I'm not slowing down my work. I've got a lot to do for this state and that's what my focus is.

Brian Lehrer: I heard that one of the only ways that somebody could be removed from the ballot at this point is if they move out of state. Maybe you could ask Brian Benjamin, "Listen, can you just spend the next six months in New Jersey? We know you're going to show up for your day in court, just get a place in Fort Lee or something for a few months, and let me put someone else on the ballot," that would be a nice favor if he would do that.

Kathy Hochul: You give him a call, Brian, and you can tell him, that's your thought. I don't have control over that, but that is the option. I think because death is the other one, and I think it's running for another office. It's interesting how limited the options are, but that again goes back to pretty antiquated laws that we need to take a look-- We need to take a look at a lot of laws and that's what I plan to do over the next few years.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take a phone call for you on the budget and for all the interesting and new things on the budget I'm going to give you a chance to shout out some of them that unfortunately have gotten lost in all the talk on bail reform and now the shooting. This though is the biggest complaint that we've gotten from listeners calling in over the last few days. I'm going to let Sharon in Brooklyn be the caller among the several on our board who are asking the same question. Sharon, you're on WNYC with governor Hochul.

Sharon: Hi, the thing that I would like is Kathy Hochul to explain is why the money being spent on a stadium for a billionaire is money better spent than on the mental illness and homeless crisis that we have in this city and in this state, why is that money well spent?

Kathy Hochul: Well, Sharon I'm happy to [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: I'm trusting the Buffalo bill stadium subsidy and more money for mental health. I would generalize that to another question that I may not have time to fully ask, supportive wraparound housing for people experiencing homelessness with mental illness that we need so much more of in this city. I know you've said that yourself. What would you say to Sharon's question?

Kathy Hochul: No, no, Sharon I appreciate the opportunity to talk about governing an entire state where there's regional priorities, and it's important for areas to know that their needs are being met as well. This stadium receives very strong support from the local delegation in Albany. They're very vocal in their desire to have a share of support, go toward a team that is part of the identity of Western New York. It's like Broadway is to New York City, this team is to Western New York. They did have options to leave and there was always, that's hanging over western New Yorkers,

in particular. The decision was made to get the best deal we could for taxpayers, and we did that. Also, I really do want to point out, I have a strong commitment to achieving affordable housing for all, and that is why I have literally $25 billion, unprecedented amount of money on the table for a housing plan with 100,000 affordable homes, and that does include 100,000 units of supportive housing, much of which will go for people with substance abuse problems, mental health challenges, people who have been recently incarcerated.

I really want to make sure those who are back in our community, have a chance to live a full life and get a job and have a home. We're going to be continuing-- This is part of my budget. This is what was passed. Brian, I thank you for the opportunity to talk about some of the significant transformative proposals that were adopted with the legislature in a thoughtful way, in a collaborative way like never before, and talk about what we're actually doing for real New Yorkers, instead of a lot of the noise that's out there.

You've really allowed me the chance to talk about how important affordable housing and services for mental health. We have programs going into schools like never before because so many of our kids just suffered so much during this pandemic, they fell behind, and that isolation really had an effect on young minds. We have a real mental health crisis.

I have family members who have dealt with substance abuse. I know these challenges personally. Sharon and others should know that support in one part of the state, and believe me, it's like being the mother of a big family, everybody wants more attention, wants more support. We're very proud of our investments in New York City that other parts of the state don't appreciate either, so that's just the balance we have to strike.

Brian Lehrer: About the Buffalo Bills, and I'll say as someone who has sat on this show, there's only one football team who plays in New York, and people down in downstate here don't realize it's not the Jets or the Giants, they play in New Jersey, it's the Buffalo Bills. The question people are asking is, wasn't the billionaire owner of the team bluffing about moving the team out of town, just to bring more money out of the taxpayers?

Kathy Hochul: I was aware that they were being reached out to by other cities that have lost teams before. That is real. Their stadium was starting to crumble, something had to happen, and if there wasn't a decision done soon, they had definitely other options. My entire life, there was talk of them going to Toronto. In fact, a significant performer, as she was coming forward to plan a number of years ago to take them to Toronto.

Buffalo is a very small market, it is quite extraordinary that they have a team at all, because there's a lot more money to be had in those larger cities like San Diego and others who would love to have a team. That's the reality that most people probably aren't familiar with, but also I was not going to give away the shop. They failed the first question was, "Can we finance it 100% with public dollars?" The state they are in now was financed 100% with public dollars, and I said, "No. No way. No, we're not doing that."

It ended up being 43% of the total cost is state money, but when you factor in the income tax, we're going to derive from the ballplayers. These are very highly paid athletes. We have that paid off just in a new income to the state over those about 22 years, it's paid off for. I really understand people's concern and anxiety about this, and I get it. I really do.

I'm not trying to say that their concerns aren't real and legitimate, but again, I get a lot of questions when I'm in other parts of the state about how much we spend on New York City transit and MTA and other things. I have to engage in this debate no matter where I go, but it's just part of the job and I understand people strongly felt feelings.

Brian Lehrer: Another budget question from Shelly in Brooklyn. Shelly, you're on WNYC with Governor Hochul.

Shelly: Yes. Thank you, Brian. Governor Hochul, I am absolutely heartsick, that you did not embrace the 150% increase that was part of the fair pay for home care legislation. This is really a life-and-death issue for so many people. I'm 75 and disabled. I know that people whether they be elderly, disabled, ill, injured, recovering from surgeries, need this care. The wages that people were being paid was truly unsustainable.

Brian Lehrer: Shelly, I'm going to leave it there because we just have a couple of minutes left with the governor. That proposal for people who don't know is for 50% over the minimum wage for home health aides. Governor, What did get passed?

Kathy Hochul: Oh, no. I understand Shelly's feelings. My own father is being taken care of by home health care aides, I know how hard they work. It is tough work, but it is so appreciated by family members like me. We were approached by representatives from unions and other places who represent these workers, and they asked us if we would consider a $3 increase over a period of years. I made that happen, that we were responding to the request, and that had not happened in a long time. I said, "We have to pay them more and front it."

It's not over five years or three years, even. I said, "Let's get that loaded so it's two years in the first year and $1 afterward." We need to pay them more, absolutely. This is the first time that anyone has taken the initiative to pay them even more, so this is in response to the requests that we had from the people who represent many many of these health care workers. We got the job done on that front, but it's going to cost us--

Brian Lehrer: It's a $3 increase rather than-- If it's 50% of the $15 minimum wage in New York City, for example, that would have been $22.50 an hour. You got a $3 an hour minimum wage, is that what's in the budget?

Kathy Hochul: When you include benefits, the value goes up to about 22 with benefits. Just so you know, that is a $7.7 billion cost. It is not inexpensive to do, but we did it anyhow.

Brian Lehrer: We're just about out of time. I want to note that you have now taken two phone calls from listeners, and that's two more than Andrew Cuomo ever agreed to take in almost 12 years as governor coming on this show. Maybe he was afraid of the unexpected even though we screen calls for relevancy, and we keep a respectful tone.

Kathy Hochul: Yes you do.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know if you want to say anything about him being a control freak. Since we're in campaign season, I want to give you the last minute as just open mic for a closing statement. Then you may know we're inviting all three of you running in the primary on for a couple of more appearances between now and June.

Kathy Hochul: No. I appreciate this opportunity to engage with your listeners. I'll take any question anytime, I'm not afraid of anything. I have something to prove here, Brian. I am the first woman governor in the state of New York, and a lot of people are questioning whether a woman is up to the task. I'm going to continue to govern with the same toughness. It's always been part of me, but also the compassion and the approach toward collaboration and not demonizing one side of the other.

That's how we got through a budget process that a lot of detractors didn't think we could pull off. We got it done, we delivered for New Yorkers, and I'm so excited to be able to finally get back on the road again and go wherever I can to talk about how we're taking care of people's health care and education and childcare and early childhood education and mental health.

I'm proud of this, and I want people in the state of New York to be proud of their leadership. We're going to continue fighting for them every single day. It's what I'm hardwired to do. I don't know any other way to operate, but I consider this a privilege. I'm going to continue to earn the respect of New Yorkers, and I thank you for the opportunity to just have a few minutes of their time today as well.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul, thank you very much. As I said at the beginning, I know you're so busy between the Brian Benjamin news and the shooting in Brooklyn yesterday, so thank you for giving us this time. I'm looking forward to talking to you again.

Kathy Hochul: I sure do as well. Thank you, Brian. Bye-bye.

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