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Brigid Bergin: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again everyone. I'm Brigid Bergen, WNYC's senior political correspondent filling in for Brian today. As you've been hearing on WNYC, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is embroiled in an existential political crisis. A year after becoming one of the leading voices during the COVID-19 pandemic with near-daily briefings, he's now playing defense, facing questions over whether his administration tried to obscure the number of people who died in nursing homes from COVID-19, and over a growing number of allegations of sexual harassment and misconduct in the workplace.

Those reports became public after women chose to come forward to tell their stories, and we'll be speaking with two of them today. Ana Liss, who worked in the governor's executive office from 2013 through 2015, and Karen Hinton, who worked with Cuomo when he served as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Clinton. First, to bring us up to speed on the recent weeks and the fallout from these allegations, I'm joined by my WNYC and Gothamist colleague, reporter Gwynne Hogan. Hi, Gwynne.

Gwynne Hogan: Hey, Brigid, good morning.

Brigid: Listeners, we're going to try to cover a lot in this segment, we're not going to have time to take your calls, but you can still tweet @BrianLehrer, and we will be opening the phones up later in the show. Now, to start things off, I want to play a piece of the governor's responses, specifically to the sexual harassment allegations. This is about 40 seconds altogether. It starts with his first public comments on March 3rd, and then brings us through this past Friday.

Governor Cuomo: I now understand that I acted in a way that made people feel uncomfortable. It was unintentional, and I truly and deeply apologize for it. I was elected by the people of the state, I wasn't elected by politicians. I'm not going to resign because of allegations. No one ever told me at the time that I made them feel uncomfortable. Obviously, there are people who've said after the fact they felt uncomfortable. People know the difference between playing politics, bowing to cancel culture, and the truth.

Brigid: Gwynne, hello. I didn't say hello before, welcome to WNYC, and to The Brian Lehrer Show. You've covered the entirety of this pandemic and tuned into many of Cuomo's briefings this past year. What's most striking to you about his tone in the past two weeks?

Gwynne: Well, actually, Brigid, I feel like it's the opposite. I think what's surprising to me is how the tone has decide to use, it stayed the same, and it's just not working as effectively as it had for basically Governor Cuomo's entire career. I think early on in the pandemic, he developed these catchphrases that he repeated over and over, and it was pretty effective distraction from things that were happening on the ground that reporters were trying to cover at the time. We're seeing him, and one of the things you just said, this likening what's happening now to cancel culture. He repeated it twice, and I just think that people are not-- it's not falling the same way as he was able to before.

Just the example that comes to mind is very early on in the pandemic briefings, we heard him talk about Italy, the virus coming from Italy so many times. That was a very effective distraction from the fact that his own administration's handling of the pandemic has since been found to have led to so many additional deaths because of his reluctance to shut New York down. Researchers have found that 17,000 additional deaths could have been averted if we did an earlier shutdown, but when you're able to point a finger at somewhere else and say it over and over again, and he was able to do that in these daily briefings, we're just seeing that same playbook not as effective anymore.

Brigid: Now, his comment about "bowing to cancel culture" came after all the three Democrats in the state's congressional delegation, called for him to step down on Friday, and that includes both Senator Schumer and Gillibrand, who also spoke publicly about it yesterday. I want to play a clip of Senator Schumer from MSNBC.

Senator Schumer: This is an awful crisis in New York and elsewhere. We need sure and steady leadership. Now, I salute the brave women who came forward with serious allegations of misconduct, of abuse, and there are multiple serious credible allegations of abuse, so that Governor Cuomo has lost the confidence of his governing partners, and of so many New Yorkers, so for the good of the state, he should resign.

Brigid: Losing the confidence of his governing partners. It almost sounds like parliament, Gwynne. Has the governor given any indication that he's being persuaded by these comments?

Gwynne: We haven't gotten an updated statement after both Gillibrand and Schumer called for his resignation. On Friday, it was this cascade of lawmakers in the congressional delegation, seemingly in chorus, calling for Cuomo's resignation. We were both reporting on this on Friday, and it felt like it was impossible to imagine him not resigning after that day. The weekend happened, and he is still our governor, so I think he appears to be just waiting this out at this point.

Brigid: I want to bring Ana Liss and Karen Hinton into this conversation. Thank you both so much for being here.

Ana Liss: Thank you.

Karen Hinton: Thanks for having us.

Brigid: Ana, you worked in the governor's executive office about six years ago, and there have been several reports, including by our own Gwynne Hogan, describing, really what seemed to be unhealthy culture in that office, a certain way women were supposed to dress and behave. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience?

Ana: Yes. I started as an Empire State Fellow in 2013. The governor had created this program modeled after the Presidential Management Fellowship Program. It was couched as a way to attract young people with some work experience and master's degrees into state service. I had been working in economic development for a few years in my hometown of Rochester, and I learned of this fellowship opportunity. I was awarded the fellowship, I was very excited.

A few months later, I was on the second floor of the state capitol working in the executive chamber, and very quickly plunged into this very interesting and strange workplace environment, with standards that included having to wear high heels, and look and act a certain way when the governor was in Albany. There was a lot of vitriolic screaming, shouting, name-calling. That feeling of objectification as a young woman, that were very trying and led me to, after my fellowship concluded, I chose to escape from Albany and get out of there.

Brigid: That point is so interesting, that you raised, the notion that because of that experience, you chose to leave that environment. I also want to ask you what your interactions with the governor were like?

Ana: The governor, he never asked me about my work. He never spoke my name. He did make flirtatious gestures and comments towards me. As I had mentioned, he'd asked me if I had a boyfriend, there were kisses on the hand or the cheek. At the time, nothing I viewed as-- I never felt like I was being violated by the governor, but I did feel as though I was being objectified. I believe that it wasn't just the governor, it was all of the men, and even the women around him that created this environment where those of us who are not in the inner sanctum were made to feel like nobodies.

Brigid: He's said several times over the past couple of weeks that he really never meant to offend anyone and he didn't know he had at the time. Do you feel like you could have told him he was making you uncomfortable?

Ana: No. I think that if I had said anything to that effect, I would have been moved to a different office. Not necessarily lost my job, but I would have been cycled out of where I was sitting, and the work that I was doing.

Brigid: Karen, you worked with Cuomo at HUD, roughly two decades ago. The Washington Post reported your experience with Cuomo after a work event where he summoned you to a hotel room. Can you tell us what happened then?

Karen: Again, thank you for having me on to talk about this really important issue facing women, not just in New York or in Albany, but across the country, and it is really time for us to stop a lot of this abusive behavior because it happens to too many women through their entire careers. At HUD, and I was hired in 1995, and much of what Ana describes is very similar to the work environment in Washington, DC, at HUD. One of the issues that really caught me immediately when I started working there, was what I ended up calling the flirt, because Governor Cuomo used flirting as a way to bring a woman employee into the fold.

If she didn't do the job he wanted her to do, he would stop flirting with her, with the idea that she would work harder, and longer, and faster. Some women just quit, they got sick of it and quit, which sounds like Ana wanted to do early on, but too many stay and continue to work to regain his compliments and his confidence. I think this happens in a lot of workplaces, and it's a common practice, and it needs to stop.

With Secretary Cuomo and myself, I'm his age. When I was working there, I wasn't the youngest woman in the room, I was generally one of the older ones. He and I had a very different relationship, in that, I had been in Washington, working on Capitol Hill, and in national politics for eight years, so I knew the drill by then. He and I argued a lot. When I finally left HUD in 1999, I did some consulting work for him out in California, where I was living at the time. That's how we were staying in the same hotel, along with other staff, all the other staff who were there.

He approached me, embraced me too tightly, too long, and was aroused. I felt extremely uncomfortable and actually shocked by it, because it had never happened that-- nothing had ever happened that way between the two of us. Over the years, I've thought back about that moment, as well as other moments in my life when similar things have happened. I ended up calling this penis politics, and I hope it's okay if I use the word penis on your show, Brigid. [chuckles] It's what I call the power play, the control and dominance men have with women, in all parts of our lives, but especially in elected politics.

Brigid: Karen, the governor has flatly denied that this event took place with you, and has really tried to paint you as a political adversary because you served as Mayor Bill de Blasio's press secretary for a year. What prompted you to come forward with your story now?

Karen: Well, I see myself in some ways as an enabler, by not ever speaking out for 21 years about this. I did not tell many people. I told two people what happened not long after, the day after, and then a few months after, but when I heard Lindsey Boylan, or read Lindsey Boylan's piece in Medium, and Clarence Bennett on CBS--

Brigid: Charlotte Bennett.

Karen: I was completely shocked and could not believe what that-- I did believe what they were saying, but I found it just shocking that this is a place where he finally got to. That's why I said, "No, I need to speak up and not be silent," because I've learned in my 40 years of working, that you're damned if you shut up, you're damned if you speak up, and I've lost jobs both ways. I think the cost of silence is higher than just shutting up-- than just speaking up, sorry.

Brigid: No problem. You can name any official body part on our show, Karen, so no problem there.

Karen: Thank you.

[laughter]

Brigid: Ana, before your story was reported, as Karen was alluding to, two other women who had worked with the governor had come forward, Lindsey Boylan and Charlotte Bennett, their allegations depict encounters that seem to really go a step beyond your own. How did you feel hearing their stories?

Ana: I wasn't surprised. To Karen's point, reading those accounts, I believed Lindsey, and I believed Charlotte, and I had worked with Lindsey just that we overlapped just slightly. I have a great deal of admiration for her, and I remember reading her account and thinking, "Wow, you are so courageous." They're going to try and end your career. I couldn't imagine having the same kind of courage, but I had been contacted back in December after Lindsey lodged her initial claim on Twitter by the governor's administration. I was asked if I had been contacted by Lindsey, and if I had spoken with her, and was encouraged to let them know if indeed she did reach out.

At the time, I was shocked because I hadn't worked there in several years, and why would they be reaching out to me, and who else might they be calling? It raised the alarm for me. Then Lindsey did contact me just to say that she wanted to create a safe space for women like myself, who might have stories that we want to share anonymously. At that point, by no efforts of my own, I was contacted by a lot of media outlets. Jimmy Vielkind from the Wall Street Journal, and Gwynne Hogan from the WNYC team, I spoke to both of them.

Just like Karen said, realized it was the right thing to do to attach my name and my identity to my stories, because it empowers other people to come forward. Just the other day, a sixth young woman came forward who still does work in the governor's employ, so I'd like to think that we are doing the right thing.

Brigid: I want to share with you both a tweet that we have received, and I'm sure it probably exemplifies some of the response that maybe you've received from some folks who are upset that you've come forward. This person tweeted, "Nursing home numbers matter, but he worked overtime to save lives. He needs sexual harassment training, sure, but this is not news. Focus coverage on a vaccine delivery and reopening plans for New York." That's the tweet.

I want to give you each a chance to respond to it, but I want to add this additional piece of context and start with you, Karen. In all of the stories that have been reported about the workplace and the environment surrounding the governor. In Rebecca Traister's piece for New York Magazine, they showed a series of terse and sometimes rude text messages from the governor's secretary Melissa DeRosa to State Senator Alessandra Biaggi, and it was over disagreements.

Having worked in the mayor's office, as you did, where I don't think anyone would be surprised to know that there have been many, many disagreements between those offices. I'm wondering, did you experience anything like that because ultimately, part of what we are trying to understand about what has happened here is how did that environment impact policy and the decisions that were made that impact the lives of New Yorkers? Did you have an experience like that, Karen?

Karen: Yes, I did. Also, let me just quickly jump in and say that how it impacts policy is very important. You ask a woman or most women about the nursing home, and most of them will say a nursing home is the last place to keep a COVID patient. We all knew that when it happened. We also thought that they would figure out a way to remove those who didn't have COVID and just leave those who did, so they wouldn't impact patients who were not sick or had illnesses that would make them even more sick as a result of being around COVID patients.

I don't know how many women give him that kind of advice. I know Melissa DeRosa is the secretary, which is a HUD position. I mean not HUD, I'm sorry, of the governor's office, but she has become an enabler. I think in so many ways, she has been abused as well. Not sexually, but through gender. This problem is about sex, but it's also about gender. She is now in a position where she has to do everything he says. She has to do it his way. When he tells her to get on the phone and scream at somebody or get on the laptop and send a bad nasty text, she'll do it in a minute. She won't question it.

I knew her, but I didn't meet her. I knew her before she became secretary. She is a smart, talented woman and she needs to live with him, and start a whole new career, because she's gotten dragged into this. It breaks my heart because I really loved Melissa. I thought a lot of her. When I was with the mayor's office, she never contacted me. It was Joe Percoco, his former aide, that was the one who did all the screaming when he's in, and certainly, the governor did as well.

Brigid: I want to take a moment. I know there are investigations that will look at what evidence there is to support some of the allegations that have been made on a range of issues. I'm wondering, have either of you been contacted by investigators from the attorney general's office yet, Anna, Ana, excuse me?

Ana: Oh, that's okay. Yes, I have. Last week.

Brigid: Karen, have you?

Karen: I have not.

Brigid: For you both, I'm wondering, what's it been like since you came forward? What kind of responses are you getting and how has your life changed? Ana, do you want to start with that?

Ana: Sure. I was really scared and ashamed at first. I thought, "What have I done?" The Wall Street Journal story hit on a Saturday night, and it was in print last Monday. I was just flooded with messages of support from former colleagues, from people in different parts of my life, many of who I haven't spoken with in a long time. I've gotten some letters, hand-written letters from people, but I have been getting a lot of hate from folks that seem to believe that those of us who are speaking are being paid off, or have some sort of a political agenda, to which I responded. I have nothing to gain and everything to lose from that.

Brigid: Karen, just in brief, you, too?

Karen: I think it's important to speak up because you do have a lot to gain. Ana, I apologize for not pronouncing your name correctly. I think that women have a lot to gain from bringing these issues to the forefront and dealing with it. I'm 62 years old, I know what has happened in my past. I don't want to it continue for Ana, for Lindsey, for Charlotte, and for any other woman who's listening to this and facing similar circumstances in the workplace, or in their homes, or with their boyfriends, or with their husbands, or their bosses.

This doesn't just fade. It's going to be here to stay until we have an ability to really talk about this and face it. It will not get in the way of the investigations on nursing homes, because that's an issue that all women care about, and they're going to push for whatever needs to change in that area.

Brigid: My final question to you both. President Biden said he was looking to see what would come from the investigations, and this, after so many New York lawmakers have demanded the governor's resignation. How did you feel about the president's comments? Did you feel he went far enough, Karen?

Karen: Politics is complicated and difficult. Biden and the governor have had a long relationship, and I'm sure that the president is trying to figure out how to deal with it. He doesn't know how, so he's waiting on the investigation to tell him how, so somebody else can take the ball and run with it, so to speak. I don't think the governor will resign regardless of what anybody says. The investigation will be key to removing him from office unless the State House and Senate go ahead and do their own impeachment hearing. That could lead to his resignation, but he's going nowhere until somebody else removes him.

Brigid: Just finally, is there anything in brief that you want to say to each other or to any of the other women who have come forward?

Ana: I just want to say thank you to Karen because she is of a different generation. In conversations with women of the baby boomer generation, I get a lot of pushback like, "That's just how it is. You've got to put up or shut up if you want to succeed in a man's world." I think women like Karen are the antidote to that message. I just want to say thank you to the women that came before me and after me. I want to convey support for those who haven't spoken up yet and maybe might consider speaking up.

Brigid: Karen, how about you?

Karen: Thank you Ana, so much, because often times, when it's not about sex and it's only about gender, people tend to pull it back and say, "Well, it's not that bad. What's the big deal?" That's not true and you know it's not true. I am so thankful that you stood up and told the truth. Every woman in this country needs that kind of faith-building in themselves and confidence in themselves. I just hope that we'll use this as way to really bring back the Me Too Movement so it's much more important and vocal in what we're talking about today.

Brigid: We're going to have to leave it there. My guests have been WNYC and Gothamist's Gwynne Hogan, and two women who've spoken about their time working with Governor Cuomo, Ana Liss and Karen Hinton. Thank you all for being here.

Gwynne: Thanks, Brigid.

Ana: Thank you so much.

Karen: Thank you.

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