The GOP Presidential Race Heats Up

( Robert F. Bukaty / AP Photo )
[MUSIC]
Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. It's been an interesting week in the Republican presidential race with two more experienced candidates entering the field, Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida and Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina. As you've mostly probably heard, the coverage of the DeSantis rollout on Twitter I think got bogged down in noting the technical glitches on the platform and Elon Musk running for president. DeSantis himself emphasized a theme of a great American comeback that's a phrase of his and a return to what he labeled as normalcy and sanity. As with some of these top talking points near the beginning of the Twitter event.
Governor Ron DeSantis: We must restore sanity to our nation. This means embracing fiscal and economic sanity. Stop pricing hardworking Americans out of a good standard of living through inflationary, borrow, print, and spending policies, and please embrace American energy independence. This also means replacing the woke mind virus with reality, facts, and enduring principles. Merit must trump identity politics. We must return normalcy to our communities. America is a sovereign country. Our borders must be respected.
Brian Lehrer: Governor DeSantis on Wednesday night. As for Senator Scott, he's getting a lot of attention for being a Black conservative. He's the only Black Republican in the Senate who argues that America is not a racist country and that framing it as one is actually a retreat- he used the word retreat- from American history, not a deeper acknowledgment, as he says in his announcement speech here.
Senator Tim Scott: Retreating from our heritage and our history, retreating from personal responsibility and hard work, retreating from strength and security, even retreating from religious liberty and the worship of God himself. They say, opportunity in America is a myth and faith in America is a fraud, but the truth of my life disproves their lies.
Brian Lehrer: Senator and now presidential primary candidate Tim Scott. Scott and DeSantis joined Donald Trump, of course, as announced candidates, but also former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson, former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, and businessman Vivek Ramaswamy. It's considered possible that former Vice President Mike Pence and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and maybe others might get in as well.
NPR says it's also watching current governors Chris Sununu of New Hampshire, Kristi Noem of South Dakota, plus former National Security Advisor John Bolton and former Congresswoman Liz Cheney. I think I left out Glenn Youngkin there, the Governor of Virginia, currently also considered a possible candidate. Liz Cheney interesting, obviously for various reasons. If she gets in, we'll see. We'll get a perspective now mostly on Scott and DeSantis and the state of the race generally from Wall Street Journal columnist Jason Riley.
His column is called Upward Mobility, and he's the author of books, including his latest released last year called The Black Boom, plus ones called False Black Power? Please Stop Helping Us: How Liberals Make It Harder for Blacks to Succeed, Maverick: A Biography of Thomas Sowell, which came out a couple of years ago, and one from back in 2008 called Let Them In: The Case for Open Borders. Some liberals might say which one does not belong. Jason, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome back to WNYC.
Jason Riley: Thank you for having me. Good morning.
Brian Lehrer: Later, I'll ask if you're still for open borders, considering what people are running on this year but let's talk about Ron DeSantis. The clip we played is, I think, representative of his main themes, his one-minute video announcement before the Twitter event hit, a lot of those same words and phrases. Do you think there's a unifying vision in those lines that you can put into words?
Jason Riley: I think there's a unifying vision, and I think he's going to run on his track record as governor of Florida, which a lot of Republicans consider to be a very successful governorship but the problem is he's been unwilling, like others in the race generally, to poke the bear to take on Donald Trump. He seems to be running on Trump's unelectability, which I think is off-base. The issue is not Trump's electability. Of course, Trump is electable. He won already. Half of his supporters think he won a second time and had the election stolen from him. I think running on his electability is off-base.
The problem is not Trump's electability. It's his fitness for office, and that is what DeSantis needs to take on. Trump has been building his lead over DeSantis in recent months. I think it's about 30 points now. Back in March, it was 15 points. He's really got his work cut out, as do the other candidates who are barely registering at all in the polls.
Brian Lehrer: You mentioned that he's successful in Florida. Why do you think that is? Is it much about these education policies that he calls the Stop WOKE Act and things like that, and we'll talk more about them, and accusing the Disney Company of grooming children for sex, that whole type of thing? Or is that his national profile but his actual governance and the reasons for his popularity in Florida are different?
Jason Riley: I think his popularity among Republicans predates the Disney stuff. It goes back to what he's done in terms of education, I think expanding schools choice, which has been very popular. He ran on that when he was running for reelection. Also his response to COVID, I think, is what really has made him popular on the right. Both of those things predate Disney but he's going to run on this quite a bit.
He's going to run on how he reopened the state earlier than other places reopened, even though the Trump administration did not want him to do so initially, how he decided to do that on his own. He thinks the results prove him that that was the correct thing to do. He's going to run on that and that is one of the keys, I think, to his popularity today is his response to COVID.
Brian Lehrer: His main reputation in the national media is of a culture warrior fighting what he calls woke ideology. He says the word woke a lot. We heard one example in the clip. What do you think he intends to signal? Literally, what does he want people to think that woke ideology is?
Jason Riley: People obviously have different definitions. Not everyone is talking about the same thing but I think DeSantis is challenging what he considers a hyper-political correctness, and he just thinks the pendulum has swung too far in that direction. I think he's going to have a lot of sympathy out there, not just among the Republican electorate but I think generally there's a sense that things have gone too far in the other direction in terms of this hyper-political correctness. I think woke is shorthand for that. I think that could resonate. He could take it too far, and we'll see. I don't think he'll be able to take it too far in the Republican primary contest but he could certainly take it too far to general election contest.
Brian Lehrer: Really? Do you think all the Republican primary voters are as concerned about those things as he is or a large number of Republican primary voters? He keeps coming back towards, normalcy and sanity and common sense, as we heard examples of in the clip. I think progressives at least hear that as an appeal to majoritarianism and therefore a dog whistle for hate.
Especially I think if you're straight or cisgender, as most people are, that's normal, his word or his implication, to center those who are not for the sake of inclusion and respect for difference. He seems to imply that that's abnormal and inflames what people on the other side would see as a moral panic about the dreaded abnormals coming for your kid. You might hear it differently, but do you hear the word normal as a kind of code or dog whistle for people in sexual minorities?
Jason Riley: I don't think he's thinking about it at that level. I think he's thinking about it at the level of people who swam on the boys' team last year, swimming on the girls' team this year, winning all the races, people calling math racist, people saying that punctuality is white supremacy. I think that is the level of "wokeness" that he's addressing, and I think that resonates again, not just with Republicans, but with a lot of people.
Brian Lehrer: All right, listeners, your questions or comments about the Republican presidential field, especially for now, Tim Scott and Ron DeSantis. Black listeners, if you want to engage on the topic of Black conservatism and Tim Scott, you're invited, or anyone else on any of this. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Jason Riley is my guest, Wall Street Journal columnist.
Let's talk about Tim Scott. He's a Black Republican, of course, who's getting a lot of attention for saying America is not a racist country. Considering your body of work, do you see Scott as having a lot of overlap with your books and the way he frames race in his politics?
Jason Riley: Oh, certainly. I think Tim Scott would identify as a Black conservative, as a small government law and order, low taxes, personal responsibility type of person. I just don't know how far he'll get running on his biography.
It's an impressive biography, but it's not particularly unique. It's something America's seen before. We've had a Black president. He was elected twice. We have a Black vice president, had Black secretaries of state. I think the mayors of the four largest cities in America right now are all Black. The idea that Blacks can be politically successful is an old story in this country. I don't know how far that message alone is going to get him.
I think again, like DeSantis, he needs to go after Donald Trump on the character level, on the fitness for office level. They're reluctant to do that. I understand why that is. For example, there's a recent pullout there that says that something like half of Trump's supporters would choose DeSantis as their second choice. Desantis knows this, and it's affecting how hard he wants to go after Trump. He doesn't want to turn off those voters, and they're all thinking that. That's the problem. That's the dilemma. That's the barrel that Trump has them over.
Brian Lehrer: We'll play a clip later in the segment of DeSantis, maybe without naming Trump by name, trying to go after Trump. On the point you mentioned before that you think isn't enough, which is electability, we'll get to that.
On Tim Scott, invoking personal responsibility, term he used several times in his announcement speech to many Black Americans that might ignore the systemic racism that they see as still such a factor in their lives and has been shown statistically from more difficulty getting approved for rentals or home loans with the same financial profiles as whites or hired for the same competitive positions with the same credentials to the effects of mass incarceration.
From being busted disproportionately for the same drugs. White people were using so many things that still need to be addressed. Not to mention the financial disadvantage starting out from centuries of slavery and other official discrimination creating the massive wealth gap. Do you think he can become popular with many Black Americans with the emphasis that he has? Not that he denies all those things that I just listed, but he seems to deemphasize them in favor of saying America is not a racist country, and emphasizing personal responsibility.
Jason Riley: Well, I think a personal responsibility message is compatible with everything you just said. I don't think he loses any support among Blacks by talking about personal responsibility. Black people talk about personal responsibility every day. Go to any Black church on a Sunday, you'll hear lots of sermons about personal responsibility. It's not something that Black people shy away from or think that because of the other things you just mentioned, personal responsibility doesn't matter. No, I don't think he's losing any supporters by talking about Black personal responsibility.
Brian Lehrer: The point of my question wasn't to say- in fact, it was to assume that Black people are talking about personal responsibility to their kids and their families all the time. But if somebody's running for president, their job is to affect policy that would be on the structural racism side that would intersect with people's personal responsibility. Your thoughts?
Jason Riley: Well, I think that when Tim Scott talks about personal responsibility, he's saying that to the extent that people take that seriously, it can help to overcome a lot of the disadvantages that you laid out that Blacks have faced historically in this country, and that without personal responsibility, those things will never be overcome. Again, I think he sees it as compatible with upward mobility, personal responsibility. I don't think that's a particularly controversial stance to take.
Brian Lehrer: Your column is called Upward Mobility. I guess the question, if I could follow up one more time on that, is the implication at least as I think a lot of people will hear it, that it's lack of personal responsibility in the Black community that's causing the larger share of inequality today rather than at anything structural, which a lot of white people would probably say casually tell me if you disagree, "Oh, if those Black people would only get their act together and study harder in school and things like that instead of focusing on racism so much." Or whether they focus on it or not, if Black people were more personally responsible, that's the main reason we have as much inequality as we have.
Is that your position, and do you think that's Tim Scott's position?
Jason Riley: I think, yes, that Tim Scott and I would largely agree with him on this, thinks that personal responsibility plays a major role in inequality in this country in the sense that you look at the out-of-wedlock birth rate, the state of the Black family, and linking solo parenting to all kinds of bad outcomes, whether it's school dropout rates, involvement with the criminal justice system, teen pregnancy, drug abuse, you name it. Not having fathers in the home is a big problem in the Black community.
I don't think that's something Tim Scott would shy away from saying publicly. I don't shy away from saying it publicly, and a lot of Black people don't shy away from it. It's something that needs to be discussed. It's a big deal. Not talking about it is not going to help us address the issue, or pretending that it doesn't matter is not going to help us address the issue. I think when Tim Scott is talking about personal responsibility, yes, that's a lot of what he's talking about. Take care of your children, finish school, obey the law. I think that's what he is getting at.
Brian Lehrer: Though I guess there would be yet another level to that conversation which would be what is causing the rates of Black male absence from homes with children? Is it something about Black culture? Is it something more structural in the economy in which maybe historically people of not enough means to support a family tend to run away from their families, it's more concentrated in the Black community, which has more poverty? That would be the structural racism argument. Where does it actually come from? What do you think?
Jason Riley: Well, in terms of poverty, I don't know how strong that argument was because if you go back a half-century or more, Blacks were much, much poorer than they are today. You had much lower out-of-wedlock birth rates in the Black community. You had much lower crime rates in the Black community. When Blacks were much poorer, you had significantly better outcomes in many cases than you have today. I don't know that poverty is the driving force here.
Tim Scott would probably point to a lot of the great society welfare state programs that of course were well-intentioned, but had unintended consequences and ended up subsidizing irresponsible behavior. That has not been a good thing for the Black nuclear family over the decades.
I think he probably points to some of these policies that took effect in the 1960s under LBJ and were expanded under Nixon in the '70s as some of the so-called root causes of what we see today.
Brian Lehrer: Paul in Brooklyn, I think wants to get on this aspect of the conversation. Paul, you're on WNYC with Wall Street Journal column, Mr. Jason Riley. Hello?
Paul: Hi, can you hear me?
Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.
Paul: Sure. I just wanted to point out that the argument that Jason makes seems to miss a lot of points about all of the structural factors that have affected and impacted Black people that were national, to begin with. Talking about fatherless homes and not talking about mass incarceration, talking about the out-of-wedlock birth rate, and not talking about the lack of economic opportunities or redlining or any of the vast majority of national policies that impacted Black people is really, really deeply irresponsible. It has this whiff of this paternalistic racism that is so central to the Republican party's ideology, first of all.
Second of all, when you're talking about Black people, you should not say Blacks, you should say Black people. It's not how it's pronounced, it's not how it's done, and it's really offensive.
Brian Lehrer: Paul. Well, I'll let Jason respond to you. Jason, go ahead.
Jason Riley: Well, I think I responded to what he was getting at in my answer to your previous question.
Brian Lehrer: It was the same question.
Jason Riley: Whether poverty has been driving a lot of these outcomes. Again, I would just point out that at a time when Blacks were much, much poorer than they are today, you had better outcomes in terms of crime rates, in terms of Black marriage rates. Even go back even further. Every census taken between 1890 and 1940, show Black marriage rates in this country, either equal or greater than white marriage rates in this country. Blacks, a 100 years ago, Blacks again were much, much poor than they are today. [crosstalk]
Brian Lehrer: Hang on. One at a time. Paul, go ahead. Paul, start your follow-up again.
Paul: Sure. I'm a JD. I studied Africana Studies. I know a lot about a lot of this stuff. If you look at why those disparities happened, we look at the crack epidemic, we look about pumping drugs into Black communities, we look at over-surveillance leasing. It's very clear that the marriage rates have very little to do exclusively with just narratives of personal responsibility.
If you can't get a loan for a car, if you can't get a loan for a home, if you can't apply for a Pell Grant, if you don't have the G.I. Bill supporting you to be able to go to college, all of those things are factors. While poverty obviously is a key player in all of this, there are also a bunch of other national policies that underlie this kind of fatherless homes issue. To ignore all of those things, really, truly does feel to me like a slap in the face of the Black community.
Brian Lehrer: Paul, the two of you are going to disagree on those points, obviously. I'm curious for you, what you think when you see it, Tim Scott, who is a Black man who talks about growing up poor, and comes to different conclusions than you and frankly, in a political sense than most Black people in America, what do you think when you see that? Is there something to learn from him? Is it more complicated than people on one side or another might easily think? What's your reaction seeing a Tim Scott?
Paul: Yes. Two things I'll say. First of all, I think that saying, oh, we had a Black president, we have a Black Vice President, but four mayors of the largest cities are Black people, ignores the fact that all those people are Democrats. Tim Scott is unique. He is different because he's from the Republican Party. The way that he might have success is going to be very different than all those people for one.
For two, he's raised $20 million. He's been endorsed by two senators who sit in the United States Senate. He is doing something that's a little different. Finally, what I'll say is, I think that the reason this message resonates with people who are white is because a lot of them are afraid of being thought of as racist. You might be able to ride that wheel fear that white voters have, especially white Republican voters who voted for Trump, who did all of these things that seem very racist.
He might be able to ride that much further than people are able to take because there will be people like your guests who will say, Blacks and everything they've done so well, in this country, we should vote for someone like Tim Scott because he proves that there isn't as much racism here, as we think that there is.
That's an interesting perspective to take on.
I don't think I'll be voting for Tim Scott, but I think that he makes this very affirmative, very positive argument, where a lot of Republicans are talking doom, they're talking gloom. They're saying this is a hellscape, and this is the worst country that we've ever lived. Tim Scott constantly is saying, this country actually could be a lot better. It was great, and that's how I was allowed to come to the Senate from the projects. It's an interesting argument. I don't know if it's a winning argument, but I think it is novel in the field.
Brian Lehrer: Paul, thank you for your call. Historically, Jason, when you talk about some that late 1800s to early 1900s period of time when you say Black Americans had a higher marriage rate than white Americans, that was also the height of Jim Crow. Do you think that had anything to do with it?
Jason Riley: With marriage rates? I don't know. Are you saying was there a connection between Jim Crow and marriage rates?
Brian Lehrer: Well, just in terms of celebrating that as a better era than today overall?
Jason Riley: Oh, I would never celebrate that as a better era or the Jim Crow era as the better era. No, obviously not. I think those were horrible periods in American history, especially for Blacks. Those are awful periods. I invoke those eras because you and the questioner we're trying to get at root causes or racism as a charge or poverty as a reason for outcomes we see today. I looked at an earlier era, and there was obviously way more racism and way more poverty than we have today, and you didn't see these outcomes. That was the reason to invoke the earlier era, not to celebrate Jim Crow America over what we see today. I think that would be absurd. I don't think that-- [crosstalk]
Brian Lehrer: Not to suggest that you were celebrating Jim Crow. Go ahead and finish your thought.
Jason Riley: Right. I would agree with the caller that I think that there are a lot of white Republicans who are tired of being called racists and support Tim Scott as a shield against that charge. I think there's a lot of truth to that statement. I don't know how far that will get him, but I do think that some of his support does stem from that, certainly.
Brian Lehrer: I want to get back to DeSantis in a minute, but one more thing on this. Just politically, why do you think so few Black Americans do vote for Republican presidential candidates today and seem to subscribe to Tim Scott's ideology or politics? Just everybody knows the numbers, approximately 90% of Black American voters vote for Democrats. It's a little higher for Republicans among Black males and Black females, but only by a few points. Why do you think it doesn't register any more than it does messages like Tim Scott's?
Jason Riley: Well, I think there are a number of reasons. I think one of the main reasons is that Republicans have largely written off the Black vote. There are exceptions to this, but typically, they don't campaign in Black neighborhoods. They don't go to Black churches. They don't go into these communities and ask for the vote. They don't show up. I think that is a large reason why they don't get more support.
Those Republicans that have taken the time to court the Black vote, I think, have been pretty successful. I can point to Chris Christie and his re-election campaign in New Jersey. Larry Hogan in Maryland. Out in California, there are a few examples of governors that have sought out the Black vote, and they've done pretty well, but they remain the exception rather than the rule.
I think that's largely why you don't see more Black supportive Republican candidates. When you don't show up, what you're allowing is for your opponent to go into these communities and paint you as a monster. There's no pushback. I think that's been very effective. I think outreach is one of the main factors.
Brian Lehrer: I don't know these numbers. Did Tim Scott get much Black support in his election campaign against whoever the Democrat was?
Jason Riley: I don't know off the top of my head how he did. I know he won pretty easily. In fact, he's never really had a hard race. I don't know how much Black support he's gotten.
Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Wall Street Journal columnist Jason Riley, as we talk about the state of the Republican presidential race with Tim Scott and Ron DeSantis. Getting in this week, we'll also touch on some of the other candidates who it's considered might get in, and we'll drill down a little bit more on what Jason was talking about earlier about Scott, but particularly DeSantis, not going after Trump in the right way. Stay with us.
[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]
Tim Scott: For those of you who wonder if America is a racist country, take a look at how people come together. All of God's people come together. Black ones and white ones, the red ones and brown ones working together, because love, unconditional love binds hearts together. We are not defined by the color of our skin. We are defined by the content of our character. If anyone tells you anything different, they are lying.
Brian Lehrer: Little more of Tim Scott there sounding his central theme. Here's DeSantis trying to separate himself from Donald Trump as the more electable candidate, but without saying Trump's name.
Ron DeSantis: Now, you can't do any of that, if you don't win. There is no substitute for victory. We must end the culture of losing that has infected the Republican Party in recent years. Entire dogmas of the past are inadequate for a vibrant future. We must look forward, not backwards. We need the courage to lead and we must have the strength to win. To voters who are participating in this primary process, my pledge to you is this. If you nominate me, you can set your clock to January 20th, 2025, at high noon, because on the west side of the US Capitol, I will be taking the oath of office as the 47th President of the United States. No excuses, I will get the job done.
Brian Lehrer: Ron DeSantis there. We continue here with Wall Street Journal columnist Jason Riley on the Republican presidential field. Jason, you were saying before the break that you think DeSantis isn't going directly enough at Trump. It sounded to me in that clip like he was going specifically at Trump even if he didn't say his name. Give me the big picture as you see it in terms of Trump DeSantis.
Jason Riley: Well, again, he's talking about his competence. Yes, you're right. He's a roundaboutly criticizing Trump's chaotic administration and so forth but I think he knows he needs to go further than that and really talk about his unfitness for office. Again, he was harping on how he'll win. Desantis is a winner, and we need to end a culture of losing. That, again, is going at Trump as being unelectable, which I don't think is the best way to attack him.
One thing that's quite stark just from listening to those two clips is the disposition of the candidates. Clearly, Tim Scott was smiling when he was talking. Clearly, Ron DeSantis was not. The stridency, the anger, the tone was so different between the two men. That is another thing I think that Scott has going for him. If people are tired of the tone of politics today, Tim Scott could be a breath of fresh air.
Now, that may be more of a general election type of appeal, though. I don't know if Republican primary voters are in a very sunny mood these days. Ron DeSantis certainly thinks that they're looking for someone to be deadly serious and strident in their message. That's what he's putting forward.
Brian Lehrer: That kind of tone has certainly gotten Donald Trump very far, elected in 2016 and way ahead in the polls in the primary field today.
Jason Riley: Yes. If DeSantis sees Trump's path as the right one, maybe he's trying to copy it. Again, the other thing that DeSantis is worried about, and all of these Republican candidates are worried about is what Trump will do if he doesn't win the primary. Will he run as a third-party candidate? Will he tell his supporters to stay home and not support the eventual nominee? They're really in a bind here. I think what they have to do first and foremost is to diminish his popularity within the party. I don't think they're doing enough to directly do that by taking on his unfitness for office. I don't think these roundabout attacks are going to get the job done. Even after the E. Jean Carroll verdict, you still couldn't find a lot of Republicans running for president or who have expressed interest in running for president who would take on Donald Trump's fitness. It was quite remarkable. That's the bind I think that they're in.
Brian Lehrer: It sounds like you think Trump is unfit for office but is it hard to run against Trump in a Republican primary partly because his policies were very popular? Even in your book that came out last year, The Black Boom, I think the central argument is that Trump economic policies led to a historic decline in unemployment for Black people and income inequality. Whether or not you respect Trump for other reasons or think he's fit for office generally, I didn't read your book, I read descriptions of your book, I apologize, but I think you think his economic policies were good for economic equality.
Here you are saying he's unfit for office, but you wrote a book about how good he was for the perennial number one issue in America, which is the economy. Does that make him hard to run against, or if I mischaracterized you tell me.
Jason Riley: I didn't support Trump in 2016 or 2020. The book centers on his economic track record prior to COVID, and I think it was quite good. I think the tax cuts were effective. I think the efforts to deregulate were effective. I think the proof is in record low Black unemployment, Hispanic unemployment record low, Black poverty, Hispanic poverty rates, and so forth, and growth. We saw economic growth. That was what the book laid out but no I don't think he was fit for office. I didn't think he was fit in 2016. I didn't think he was fit in 2020, and I certainly won't be supporting him if he's a nominee the next time.
The fact of the matter is he has tens of millions of supporters and the next Republican nominee cannot win without at least some of those supporters. That nominee will probably need some independence as well but they will need Trump's supporters to win. They have to be very, very careful about how they handle Donald Trump. That's the dilemma they're in.
Brian Lehrer: One more caller who wants to respond to some of the things you were saying about Black history in reference to our Tim Scott conversation. Paulette in Atlanta, you're on WNYC with Jason Riley, Wall Street Journal columnist. Hi, Paulette. Oh, Paulette disappeared. Okay, well so much for that.
Let me ask you about the broader field. Some of the others who might get in, Pence, Chris Christie, Liz Cheney interestingly, John Bolton, and three sitting governors Sununu, Noam, and Youngkin. Anyone of particular interest to you?
Jason Riley: The only one that really interests me is Chris Christie, and not because I think he can win the nomination but because he has said that if he does get in, it will be strictly to take down Donald Trump. He will be a guided missile, he says, attacking Trump's fitness for office. I think someone has to do that. Maybe Christie will go on that suicide mission but that's what interests me about Christie running.
Again, the other people are really non-factors now, including really, Tim Scott. It's really a Trump-DeSantis race. I know it's early but the polls are quite striking here. Everyone else is in the single digits after Trump and DeSantis.
Brian Lehrer: Polls its.
Jason Riley: The low single digits.
Brian Lehrer: True. For the moment, anyway. We'll see if, of course, that can always change. Paulette in Atlanta is back. Maybe the line dropped out on our end. Paulette, you're on WNYC. Hello. Do we have you now?
Paulette: Yes. Hi. Good morning. I think it's so interesting that anyone, Scott DeSantis or anything, any of these people and your guests think that African American or Black people either under "low concepts or what have you" or are asking for handouts to that we are not self-determined if we are not following the right or the Republican theories of how folks should act economically and in other situations.
The fact that we are asking for parity, and I think that's the main difference between us, our situation now, and that racism, in fact, does prevent us from having access to so many things, jobs, education, et cetera. We've gained some parity we've been able to move forward with that. Doesn't mean that America is not racist. It means that through our efforts, we have called them to task and gotten some forward thinking on this. If we want to turn it back to times when Jim Crow was in effect, or segregation was in effect, then we lose all of that.
I think that's what DeSantis is saying in Florida. If we erase the history, take history out, whitewash history, then Black folk and white folk won't really know that there were times when they got land grants, they got handouts. As African-American, we just ask for ths parity. We're asking to be paid for the work we do. We are asking to be admitted to educational institutions so that we can get in that education so that we can go ahead and do what we need to do.
We don't need a handout. We just need it to be equal ground. We don't have that for the masses of Black people. Sure, a few rise to the top, and it looks good for the country, and it makes people feel good to be able to point to them but for the masses of Black people, we are in poverty. Trump doesn't get any credit for taking us out of poverty for the fact that we may have had some increases or some improvement for the first two years that he was president was probably the effect of the previous president's policy, not his. Totally not his.
Brian Lehrer: Some people say a gradual economic recovery that was continuing to gain steam long term since the 2008 financial crisis but Jason, in response to Paulette in Atlanta.
Jason Riley: I think most Blacks are not poor in this country and haven't been poor for a long time, several decades. I think Black people are in a little better situation than the caller was laying out there. She kept talking about parity. Well, that's an outcome that can't be guaranteed. Asians and whites don't have parity. Parity is utopian. What you want is equal opportunity for people. What they do with that opportunity, it's going to be up to them but that's what we want in terms of government policy so people have opportunity.
I think that this is not to say that racism doesn't exist, or that racism has not been a factor in the inequities that we see today. I don't think Tim Scott would argue that. I certainly don't argue that. The question is, what role does racism play today versus other factors that drive inequality in this country? I certainly would argue that there's less racism today than there used to be, even if we still have racism.
Brian Lehrer: I guess the follow-up would be that parity is an outcome, yes, but if there is such a massive lack of parity like the 9:1 white-to-Black wealth gap in this country, then if you're not saying that there's something fundamentally structural, then you're saying there's something fundamentally wrong with Black people. Wrong?
Jason Riley: You may be saying that. That's not the dichotomy that I would [laughs] set up. No, no, that's certainly not the dichotomy that I would set up.
Brian Lehrer: You're saying at least, that the playing field is relatively even, or if you're saying that the playing field is relatively even, then what other cause would there be for the dramatic lack of parity in outcomes?
Jason Riley: Well, the unemployment rate, currently, is the lowest on record. It's fell to the lowest on record under Trump, and then it fell to a new low under President Biden. Not only is it at a record low, the gap between the Black unemployment rate and the white unemployment rate is the narrowest on record, and has been steadily narrowing. I think things have been improving. Again, we've had record low poverty rates, record low unemployment rates.
This is good news. This is declining income inequality. Things have been moving in the right direction. We still have a ways to go, I would agree. The question is, what kind of policies will move us closer to where we want to be? Is it expanding the size of the welfare state? Is it growing the economy? Again, parity is something you don't find anywhere in history, not in the US, not outside of the US, not today, not yesterday, not historically. You just don't get group outcome parity.
I'm not surprised that we don't have it in America. I'd like us to be closer to parity, but the lack of it to me is not evidence of some systemic problem. It's a factor.
Brian Lehrer: Quick thought before you go on Liz Cheney, and the field in general, since you're seeing it as likely a two-person race between Trump and DeSantis for the nomination. Why are all these other people getting in? What do they think they have to gain or are they just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle? If Liz Cheney, who obviously does criticize Trump's fitness for office quite directly, does get in, what role do you think she would play?
Jason Riley: I don't think she'll be much of a factor. I don't see a path for her. I think she's really burned too many bridges on the right, particularly to really matter in a primary race. She'd have to want some sort of independent run, and even then I'm not sure what her path would be. I don't think she's someone that will make much of an impact on this race. I just don't see that.
Brian Lehrer: All these others, their reason for getting in? I mean there's [unintelligible 00:43:48]-- Yes, go ahead.
Jason Riley: These are vanity runs. The question is, this is exactly what Trump wants, by the way, is a crowded field.
Brian Lehrer: Split the field.
Jason Riley: So that he can win primaries with pluralities as he did before. The question will really be how fast people get out after the primary process starts so that voters can focus on one alternative to Donald Trump. That's what I'm looking to see. Not how many people get in, but how fast they get out when they realize they don't have a chance.
What Republicans should have learned in 2016 is don't take too long to get out. Get out early so that the non-Trump vote can be consolidated if you want to produce a different candidate.
Brian Lehrer: Jason Riley, Wall Street Journal columnist and author of books including his latest, The Black Boom. Jason, thank you very much.
Jason Riley: Thank you.
Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.
Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.
New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.