[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Yesterday we talked about President Biden's reelection campaign, which he officially launched this week, and the road ahead for him, including presumably his glide path to at least the nomination with only RFK Jr and Marianne Williamson challenging him and both considered very minor threats. The Republican primary field is more interesting, despite the reality that Donald Trump remains the big dog at least so far.

Quite a few pretty major Republicans are entering, and we'll talk mostly in this segment about four of them who are not named Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis. They are Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Asa Hutchinson, and Vivek Ramaswamy. We're going to talk now mostly about their ideas, not so much polls or whether they can actually win the nomination. To help with this, we welcome back Amanda Carpenter from The Bulwark, the news and politics site, founded after the 2016 election by some never-Trump conservatives, we might call them. Amanda Carpenter herself is the author of the book, Gaslighting America: Why We Love It When Trump Lies to Us.

Her prior conservative and Republican Party credentials are strong and many. She was Ted Cruz's communications director and a speech writer for South Carolina Senator Jim DeMint. Before that, she worked as a reporter for the conservative news organizations Human Events, Townhall.com, and the Washington Times. Among her recent articles on The Bulwark are ones called Tim Scott Looks at Joe Biden and Thinks Civil War, and Nikki Haley wants to talk about abortion. Just talk, though. We'll talk about those two candidates and the other two. Amanda, we appreciate you doing this with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Amanda Carpenter: Hey, thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: We have clips of each of the four who I mentioned. Let's start with Nikki Haley. She is the former governor of South Carolina, and she was Trump's UN ambassador, for people who don't know those bits of her background. She's of Indian descent and the only woman in the Republican primary race. She made news this week by trying to stake out a position not exactly like those we usually hear in either party on abortion rights. Here's the argument she's basically trying to make.

Nikki Haley: My goal as president will be the same as it was when I was governor and ambassador. I want to save as many lives and help as many moms as possible. We should be able to agree that contraception should be more available, not less, and we can all agree that women who get abortions should not be jailed. A few have even called for the death penalty. That's the least pro-life position I can possibly imagine.

Brian Lehrer: Nikki Haley on abortion rights this week. We're going to play another clip of that coming up, but Amanda, what did you make of that?

Amanda Carpenter: Well, what's remarkable about the speech is how she declined to talk about the real specifics that divide candidates in a Republican primary. The clip that you played, yes, among the broader electorate, I think she's right. Those are consensus positions and the framing that she has adopted, that it is her goal to save as many lives as possible, that is how I would exactly advise a Republican candidate to talk about their position.

The problem is that she was delivering that speech at the headquarters of Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America, which is a anti-abortion advocacy group that very much cares about the specifics of where a candidate lies when it comes to things like gestation limits, abortion exceptions, and that is something she steadfastly refused to talk about. It is an admirable rhetorical exercise that she is displaying in trying to reframe this debate. Even the things that she describes as being broadly popular, like broader access to abortion, no jail time [crosstalk] for women-

Brian Lehrer: You mean to contraception, right? You said abortion.

Amanda Carpenter: Oh, yes, excuse me. Yes, I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Broader access to contraception.

Amanda Carpenter: Those are not wholly consensus positions in a Republican primary, and they're not wholly consensus positions to people who she was addressing in that room.

Brian Lehrer: In terms of if she were to get the nomination and try to present herself as a consensus candidate or an arbitrator on abortion rights, more than a policymaker, as I think you described her attempt here in your article, she still talks about it in a way that will make most pro-abortion rights people cringe, about saving lives, even using that language, equating fetuses with born human lives and about supporting moms as if ever removing their choice regarding a pregnancy is doing anything for them rather than to them. I don't know who exactly she appeals to here.

Amanda Carpenter: It's very confusing to me, and this is where I landed on the conclusion. This is why she wants to have a conversation about the subject rather than articulating any kind of clear position. It seems obvious to me that she wants to give herself a broad lane to navigate in should she advance in the Republican primary and maybe, in her mind, make it as a presidential candidate. The key question that the advocates at this group she was speaking, they came away from this speech talking to the press, lauding her for adopting a position against abortion after 15 weeks.

What's curious about that is that her spokesperson then emailed other reporters saying, "No, she did not adopt that position. She is against late-term abortion and wants to have a conversation about it." This is a very niche primary within a primary kind of subject, but it is determinative in a lot of respects in the Republican primary contest. It's very interesting to me that the SBA List is saying, "Okay, she's good on this position."

Just weeks before, they blasted the Trump campaign because the Trump campaign issued a statement saying that abortion should be left to the states, which the head of that group called a morally indefensible position, but then even if you look at Nikki Haley's speech, she sort of talks about how it's good that red states are adopting restrictive abortion policies, which is a nod towards saying, "This is okay to leave to the states."

That's a long way of saying, it's very confusing, but I think it's broadly indicative about how Republican candidates simply don't know how to navigate this Post-Dobbs environment and landscape. Maybe that's why she's saying I'm not committing myself to any position because I don't want to get bogged down on this, but I think it's really unavoidable.

Brian Lehrer: I think seeing the popularity of abortion rights and how powerful an issue it was in the 2022 midterms must be why Donald Trump, who of course ran in 2016 promising to appoint as many anti-choice judges as he could to get Roe repealed at very least, and positioning himself as an anti-abortion rights candidate. Of course, he was so successful at that from a Supreme Court standpoint now saying, "Oh, well, if I'm elected again, I would leave it to the States." Not Nikki Haley, Haley didn't even rule federal abortion restrictions out. Here's another clip.

Nikki Haley: I do believe there is a federal role on abortion. Whether we can save more lives nationally depends entirely on doing what no one else has done to date, and that is define consensus. That's what I will strive to do.

Brian Lehrer: What federal role was she even imagining there, if you can tell?

Amanda Carpenter: She is declining to outline that, because she thinks that through this Republican primary process, perhaps she can just elevate the discussion and voters will decide. Like I said, it's extremely confusing, but this does get to another aspect of where the Republican candidates are broadly in the Post-Dobbs landscape, because if you remember, a lot of pro-life activists were saying that we need to return Dobbs so that the states can decide this issue.

That was a broad consensus position, but now it is flipped now that the conservative pro-life movement has won, now they want a federal ban, and are being much more upfront about that. That's what they're explicitly asking for, and here Nikki Haley is saying, "Yes, I'm open to that, but I will do whatever the people decide and states can do restrictive abortion policies as they see fit." It is truly a mishmash.

Brian Lehrer: One more thing on this before we go on to Tim Scott. You mentioned Haley and some reference to 15 weeks. There was the Lindsey Graham 15-week proposal, which didn't go anywhere, even among Republicans in the Senate. That was a 15-week, what should I say, minimum, no state could have abortion rights for more than 15 weeks. He didn't go to the other half of that that might actually create some kind of centrist ground swell of support, which would've been to say, women will have 15 weeks of abortion rights in America, and until then, no questions asked, then only under certain circumstances or mostly if past 15-week ban. How did Nikki Haley talk about 15 weeks? Did it have anything to do with an abortion right up to 15 weeks?

Amanda Carpenter: Well, here's the thing. She didn't talk about it at all. She explicitly said in her speech that she thought it was kind of a got-you politics to be pinned down on things like gestation dates and specific exceptions. She only supports what perhaps the "consensus" would be, but she wants a national ban and she wants states' rights. She really adopted-- and this is something that Nikki Haley is known to do.

If you look at her positioning about Donald Trump before and after January 6, she does adopt this kind of-- she'll say she's framing it and she's open to all opinions, but here's where she personally is and seeks to provide personal private assurances to conservatives that she'll do what they like while leaving herself as much room as possible in public, and that is where the confusion lies, I think, with the head of SBA pro-life. Even today, I did an interview with The Washington Post because their reporters were confused by this. She says, "Well, I just personally believe that Nikki Haley would support a ban after 15 weeks," and they're saying, "But she did not say that, her spokesperson said otherwise."

For some reason, the head of SBA List just said, "Well, I believe that's what she'll do," which is just a very strange thing to me considering this is their only subject, and it may be because they're so desperate, and I'm really reading between the lines here, to have a woman on the national stage be unapologetically, at least in terms of projection, pro-life, and they are so eager to have a persona like Nikki Haley just talk about the subject, that they will give her wiggle room, but that is just what I'm seeing.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your questions and comments welcome in this segment on the alternatives to Trump and DeSantis in the Republican presidential field. We're talking in this conversation about Nikki Haley. We're about to go on to Tim Scott, then Vivek Ramaswamy, and Asa Hutchinson. Who has a question or a comment about any of them? Any people from Arkansas listening right now who want to talk about Asa Hutchinson or South Carolinians or anyone following Tim Scott? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 with Amanda Carpenter from The Bulwark.

Let's go on to Tim Scott, also from South Carolina, like Nikki Haley. He's currently in the Senate from there, and he's the only Black Republican in the Senate. In his announcement video, he went right to the issue of race, but before we play a clip, your article on this announcement video was called Tim Scott Looks at Joe Biden and Thinks Civil War. What's your premise?

Amanda Carpenter: Well, here's the [unintelligible 00:13:19] It comes from his announcement video, which was filmed at the location of Fort Sumter, where he is talking about how the first shots of the Civil War were, of course, fired there, and that was a test in terms of what we would be as a nation and whether we would remain unified. The way that he segues through this is that we are once again being tested and Joe Biden implicitly represents the next coming of a new Civil War.

Tim Scott has a very good reputation in the conservative movement as a very affable person that a lot of people like to be around, a good public speaker, and the sort of politician that makes other people feel good. He has a great story about how he pulled himself up from his bootstraps, was raised in a really rough household, had a Chick-fil-A manager who mentored him, and just a really great American story. For him to adopt that position, I understand we live in polarized times, but to suggest that Joe Biden and the Democrats are waging a new Civil War, I found that sort of shocking and not at all in keeping of what kind of person he has publicly positioned himself to be so far.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip from that announcement video by Tim Scott.

Tim Scott: Joe Biden and the radical left have chosen a culture of grievance over greatness. They're promoting victimhood, instead of personal responsibility, and they're indoctrinating our children to believe we live in an evil country. All too often, when they get called out for their failures, they weaponize race to divide us, to hold on to their power. When I fought back against their liberal agenda, they called me a prop, a token, because I disrupt their narrative. I threaten their control.

They know the truth of my life disproves their lies. See, I was raised by a single mother in poverty. The spoons in our apartment were plastic, not silver, but we had faith, we put in the work, and we had an unwavering belief that we too could live the American dream. I know America is a land of opportunity, not a land of oppression.

Brian Lehrer: Tim Scott from his announcement video that he's forming an exploratory committee to run for president. Who's he appealing to with that, Amanda?

Amanda Carpenter: Well, I think there's a lot of appetite among Republican conservative type voters who have already-- to hear more about the culture war. [unintelligible 00:16:07] just put that very broadly, which encompasses a lot of the stuff that's happening, the debate that's happening over transgender issues in school, DEI, ESG [unintelligible 00:16:19] acronym that you hear about a lot, CRT. He is nodding to all of that and saying, "Yes, I am eager to delve into these issues."

He often brings up how, as a Black Republican, he has encountered a lot of discrimination and nasty stuff from the left. Those are messages that Republican voters are eager to hear, because they very much, and typically in every presidential election, there are a few minority candidates, for some whatever reason, they don't get to a high position in the polls, but this is a consistent mainstay in a Republican primary. He's certainly nodding to all that, and displaying that he's very eager to talk about his background as a Black man, as a Black Republican, and Republican voters are very receptive to that.

Brian Lehrer: When you say Republican voters, that, of course, is overwhelmingly white voters in presidential elections, only about 10% of Black voters have been voting Republican in recent elections. Like you said earlier, that Republicans who are against abortion rights love the idea that Nikki Haley would be a woman on the national stage who's against abortion rights. Is it that a lot of white Republicans look at Tim Scott and say, "Wow, they're not going to be able to accuse us of racism anymore for these positions that they usually accuse us of racism for if Tim Scott is up there saying it."

Amanda Carpenter: Yes, I think that's definitely a big element of that. Tim Scott, he is a success in his own right. He went to the House, got appointed to the Senate, I think if I'm remembering correctly, maybe by Nikki Haley, but it is important, maybe we should talk about Nikki Haley and Tim Scott a little bit together, not because they are minority candidates per se, but because they both represent or have represented South Carolina, which is a very important state in the Republican primary.

I think there's a strong case to be made, that they're both playing for a VP slot. If you look at how the Republican primary is set up, I know you don't want to talk about the polling, they're not doing great in the polls. Being able to hold on to 5% or 10% of voters going into South Carolina that they could potentially throw to a Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis to put them over the top, that is very, very significant at that late stage in the game. I think they should be considered not as failing presidential candidates, but potentially very strong vice presidential candidates. If you want to talk about the hunger that Republican voters have for those debates, either one of them would be very fine matchups against Kamala Harris.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. How different, though, is the clip that we just heard of Tim Scott to your ear than say, dare I mention the name, Tucker Carlson, when Carlson would say on Fox, that there was no such thing as a white supremacist threat in the United States? Of course, he gets labeled a racist for that. Is Tim Scott really saying the same thing there when he talks all about personal responsibility, there's no oppression in America, we're not a racist country, all of that?

Amanda Carpenter: Yes. You're getting to another trick that I think both, I don't want to say trick, but rhetorical pivot that both Nikki Haley and Tim Scott have adopted really well coming up through South Carolina politics. The pitch goes something like this, and you see it in almost every one of their ads, even this ad with Tim Scott. The pitch says something to really highlight their background as a minority and facing discrimination personally in their lives growing up.

Nikki Haley talks about her father having the cops called on him, Tim Scott has lots of stories that are similar, but then they'll pivot and say-- even this phrase directly, both of them, America is not a racist country. They'll say, "I have suffered discrimination, I've seen racism up close, my family has suffered from it, but America is not a racist country." I think that's a really interesting pivot. I don't think it's been scrutinized that closely, but certainly in South Carolina, it's worked very well for them.

Brian Lehrer: Well, before we leave Tim Scott, does he have policy positions that would address racial inequality, or does he just hang it all on what he referenced in the clip, personal responsibility?

Amanda Carpenter: He's worked significantly on criminal justice issues in the United States Senate. I believe different people will tell you how committed he was to that and how far he was willing to go, but he certainly has a body of work that can be examined, and that I think he would be happy to talk about. What is interesting is that he has been in the Senate working on a number of issues for quite some time, and even as a House member that goes back later years, but he has not developed a following that is really necessary to be competitive in a Republican primary. It's interesting that he has been such a really beloved figure in elite Republican conservative circles, but has failed to get any real traction so far.

Brian Lehrer: You started to go here a minute ago, but I was going to ask you anyway to touch this question, and maybe you'll go even deeper because South Carolina, right, Tim Scott and Nikki Haley, and for people that don't know, I mentioned it in the intro, but you worked for South Carolina Senator Jim DeMint, a very conservative white Republican, and I'm curious to get your sense of why South Carolina seems to produce these very conservative, but fairly unusual Republicans, I think it's fair to say.

Nikki Haley and Tim Scott, racially and ethnically unusual for a very conservative southern state and for their party, Lindsey Graham, very conservative, and of course, has caved so much to Donald Trump, but he drew the line against President Bush with John McCain. People will remember when it came to standards of behavior and the war on terror, things like that. Why is South Carolina producing unusual Republicans, if you accept that characterization?

Amanda Carpenter: That's a good question. I guess I see it a little bit differently in that those four that you named, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Lindsey Graham, my former boss, Jim DeMint, is that South Carolina is, to a degree, a rural state. They're very personal people. I think when you evaluate them in the national stage, they can look weird, but they're all people who are very comfortable in their own skin and do the retail stuff, the person-to-person relationships very well. That's probably indicative for a lot of politicians, but there is a certain small town feel to it that I think is much more accessible in a way that you don't get when there's really huge, big city populations. Tim Scott talking about being mentored by Chick-fil-A manager, and Nikki Haley talking about--

Brian Lehrer: Of course, Chick-fil-A, but go ahead.

Amanda Carpenter: Yes, of course, but that's a totally normal thing. Of course, we've got one of those in our town. Nikki Haley talking about her dad having the cops called on him when he went to a farmer's stand, Lindsey Graham's, you referenced famously, buddy-buddy relationship with John McCain. Maybe that's the southern hospitality thing coming into play, but I think that's a very big element of what makes someone successful in South Carolina.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to have a Chick-fil-A in the Bronx soon near where I live.

Amanda Carpenter: There you go.

Brian Lehrer: I walk by there and I see them building it.

Amanda Carpenter: The diet lemonade with the two [unintelligible 00:24:34] I can't get enough of it.

Brian Lehrer: South Carolina will be the first Democratic primary state. They're moving from Iowa and New Hampshire going first to South Carolina going first. Do you think it's becoming like Georgia moving from pure red to purple as the population changes?

Amanda Carpenter: I'm not sure about that. Georgia is such a different story where it truly is a purple state. I'm not sure about that.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We're going to take a break, then we'll continue with Amanda Carpenter. We've got two more Republican presidential candidates not named Trump or DeSantis to talk about, and we will get some of your calls in for Amanda Carpenter from The Bulwark about any of the four, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Be patient as we work our way through some of these clips of these candidates not that well-known around here or around the country, outside their immediate areas, one of them not well-known at all, but who may have played a role in getting Don Lemon fired from CNN. We'll play that clip right after this.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue to talk about four Republican presidential hopefuls all of whom have declared or at least created exploratory committees not named Donald Trump or Ron DeSantis. We're talking about this with Amanda Carpenter from The Bulwark, the news and politics site founded after the 2016 election by some people we might call never Trump conservatives. Amanda herself has worked for Ted Cruz, worked for South Carolina Senator Jim DeMint, worked as a reporter for the conservative news organizations Human Events, Townhall, and The Washington Times and she's the author of the book Gaslighting America: Why We Love It When Trump Lies to Us.

Let's go on to another Republican hopeful, more fringy in terms of political experience than the ones we've been talking about and less well-known, multi-billionaire businessman running largely against corporate social responsibility policies, Vivek Ramaswamy. He made some news this week after Don Lemon was fired from CNN because some of the reporting says one reason Lemon was let go was this exchange that he had with Ramaswamy recently. Here's part of how it started.

Vivek Ramaswamy: Actually, you [unintelligible 00:27:03] funny fact is Black people did not get to enjoy the other freedoms until their Second Amendment rights were secured. I think that that's one of the lessons that we learned.

Don Lemon: Black people still aren't allowed to enjoy the freedoms [unintelligible 00:27:15] in this country.

Vivek Ramaswamy: I disagree with you on that, Don. I disagree with you on it. I think you're doing a disservice to our country by failing to recognize the fact that we have equality [unintelligible 00:27:22]

Don Lemon: When you are a Black skin and you live in this country then you can disagree with me, but we're not. You mentioned that there are three different shades of melanin in here.

Vivek Ramaswamy: Don, I think we have to be able to talk about these issues in the open regardless of the color of our skin.

Brian Lehrer: That was near the beginning of it and went on. Here's another excerpt from a little later in that exchange.

Vivek Ramaswamy: Part that I find insulting is when you say today Black Americans don't have those rights after we have gone through civil rights revolution in this country.

Don Lemon: The fact that I find it troubling is that you are sitting here telling an African American about the rights and what you find insulting about the way I live, the skin I live in every day. I know the freedoms that Black people don't have in this country and that Black people do have.

Vivek Ramaswamy: Well, here's where you and I have a different point of view. I think we should be able to express our views regardless of the color of our skin. We should have this debate without me regarding you as a Black man, but me regarding you as a fellow citizen. That's what I think we should see.

Don Lemon: I'm not saying you shouldn't express your opinions, but I think it's insulting that you're sitting here, whatever ethnicity you are, splaining to me about what it is like to be Black in America. I'm sorry.

Vivek Ramaswamy: Whatever ethnicity I am. I'll tell you what I am. I'm an Indian American, I'm proud of it, but I think we should have this debate Black, white, doesn't matter on the content--

Don Lemon: I think we should have this debate--

Brian Lehrer: All right. We faded it out because, well, it just kept going on. Amanda, some people say Don Lemon was too hot, too volatile with a declared presidential candidate there. I'm curious before we even talk about Ramaswamy as a candidate, I'm curious how you see Lemon's exchange with him, and whether from your reporting or anything you've heard that played a role in him getting let go.

Amanda Carpenter: Well, I think it's important to distinguish what CNN under the new head Chris Licht is maybe trying to do and what has traditionally been done at CNN under Jeff Zucker during the last two presidential contests. Don Lemon used to helm a primetime show, the only Black man leading prime time from 10:00 to midnight every night by himself where I was a frequent guest, I was a contributor at CNN for six years, where really those kind of debates would have, I'm not going to say been encouraged, but if they happen to play out, the cameras would remain running. I think at one point during that exchange, Don Lemon took the earpiece out of his ear and said, "Quit talking to me."

I think that's a debate that would have been fine under the Zucker era, and it's actually encouraged to talk about where do you come from as a Black man, where do you come from as an Indian American, flush it out. I don't necessarily think that there's anything below the belt personally that took place there, but on a morning show where I believe the network is trying to soften the edges on the politics and flatten those differences out and be more welcoming to Republican candidates to just let them perhaps give a spiel in a way that is not as contested as that segment was. I have no idea what exactly played a role in his firing, but I think there's a different approach that the Licht era is taking as they navigate 2024.

Brian Lehrer: That one moment you just referred to, taking the earpiece out of his ear and saying stop talking to me. For people who don't work in broadcasting, if that was confusing at all, the earpiece, he's being talked to by his producer and so he was telling his producer on the air to stop talking to him while he's having this fight with Vivek Ramaswamy.

Amanda Carpenter: I guess I just want to say one more point. I do think it was very fair for Lemon to push back on the contention that a Republican presidential candidate was taking that the Civil War was successful for Black Americans in the respect that it secured second amendment rights for them. I think that's something that should obviously be clarified.

Brian Lehrer: Considering what goes on on television these days, I did not personally find that exchange so hot.

Amanda Carpenter: Yes. Maybe for mourning, like I said, during a prime time during the position that Lemon previously held, I think that would've been fine and even encouraged.

Brian Lehrer: Vivek Ramaswamy, sometimes business people run knowing they won't win, but they raise their profile in pursuit of future profits. Think that's the case with Vivek Ramaswamy?

Amanda Carpenter: He has lots of profits. He's a very successful businessman, but I think you have to look at him as a niche candidate that really is the product of the conservative media environment. If he wasn't a guest on Tucker Carlson's show over the past few years, he would not be running for president in any respect. I think it's important to point out he's only 37 years old, which I think most voters would find surprising.

He's authored a couple books that have served as the vehicle for him to be a guest in a lot of these programs. The titles tell you everything. One is Woke, Inc.: Inside Corporate America's Social Justice Scam, the other is Nation of Victims: Identity Politics, the Death of Merit, and the Path Back to Excellence. Those are the things that he is running on. It's no surprise to me that he approached that segment with Lemon as I am going to come here and be very fiery and probably start a fight because that has been his whole public life and campaign thus far.

Brian Lehrer: One more. Former Arkansas governor, Asa Hutchinson, he's made headlines recently for calling on Trump to withdraw from the race. Here he is on ABC this week announcing that he plans to run.

Asa Hutchinson: The reason as I've traveled the country for six months, I hear people talk about the leadership of our country and I'm convinced that people want leaders that appeal to the best of America and not simply appeal to our worst instincts. That inspires me when I see everyday Americans just saying, give us good leadership, give us common sense, consistent conservatism, and optimism about our great country. That inspires me and I believe I can be that kind of leader for the people of America.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an exchange on that same show between Hutchinson and the host, ABC's Jonathan Karl, about Trump.

Jonathan Karl: You suggested recently that if Trump were to get indicted that he should drop out of the race. Do you believe that now that he's been indicted, should he drop out?

Asa Hutchinson: I do, and for a couple of reasons. First of all, the office is more important than any individual person. For the sake of the office of the presidency, I do think that's too much of a sideshow and distraction, and he needs to be able to concentrate on his due process and there is a presumption of innocence.

The second reason is, throughout my eight years as governor and as a political leader I've always said that people don't have to step aside from public office if they're under investigation. If it reaches the point of criminal charges that have to be answered, the office is always more important than a person. There's some consistency there and I do believe if we're looking at the presidency and the future of our country, then we don't need that distraction and he needs to be able to concentrate on the legal issues that he faces.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda, why is Asa Hutchinson running for president and willing to throw in against Trump that way, which others are not?

Amanda Carpenter: Yes, I think Asa represents an old-school conservative approach to politics. He soft-pedals the issues a little bit. He's not fiery. He's a very successful two-term governor. As a House member, he was actually an impeachment manager during the Clinton administration, trying to impeach Bill Clinton. He has a long-standing record, he's done very well, but making the pivot to the national stage is tough. I would say like the previous candidate we discussed, he's the product of green rooms and going on television not necessarily MAGA media, but you see him a lot on CNN Sunday morning shows, ABC.

If you are a Republican who is unwilling to go along with Trump, again, Asa is probably the most acceptable candidate for you. I think he is playing for that lane, hopes to make it on a stage and show there's this strain in Republican politics that wants to insist that the Trump era was something that just happened and we can get back to "normal." That is the school of thought that Asa Hutchinson is of.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a couple of callers in here. Jay in Somerset County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jay.

Jay: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good.

Jay: One thing, being an Indian American, I just have to say that a lot of us feel that Nikki Haley is a fraud and fakester. As you've mentioned, her positions are very wishy-washy. Her Indianness only shows up when it's needed. Anyway, I have a question for you guys, an intriguing question. How do you all feel about Chris Christie potentially throwing his name in the ring and shaking up the whole process going forward with Trump and the other four candidates?

Brian Lehrer: A good New Jersey question from Somerset County. Amanda, I've limited this to those who've actually declared, or at least formed exploratory committees. We know Christie is considering it. What do you think?

Amanda Carpenter: Yes, he seems to be very eager to adopt the position that he played in the 2016 primaries in which he can make or break a candidate. In all the interviews that he's done thus far, testing the waters, forecasting a run, he has sought to impress his ability to get on a debate stage and take somebody down, which is what he did to Marco Rubio. I think, was it after the New Hampshire primary right before Florida and essentially tanked Rubio's prospects and showing that he couldn't think on his feet and just really exposed him and then threw his support to Donald Trump. Chris Christie, I think, values himself as a change-maker candidate, somebody that can enter the race and make plays and make things happen. He's been attacking Donald Trump.

Brian Lehrer: He's been very loud and forthright on attacking Donald Trump, to my ear, the most of anybody except-- probably even more than what we just heard from Asa Hutchinson.

Amanda Carpenter: Oh, definitely. More so than Asa Hutchinson. He's saying I will get in the race and I can take down Trump for you. Has he gotten the response that he's wanted from making those calls? I'm not sure because I don't see him jumping into the race yet.

Brian Lehrer: Tammy in Livingston, also in New Jersey. Tammy, you're on WNYC. Hi there.

Tammy: Hi. I just wanted to say I was a little sad and discouraged to hear your guest be, what it felt like to me, a little dismissive and very skeptical about the personal stories of Tim Scott and Nikki Haley. When they talk about how they grew up and what their feelings now are about America, I feel like that is their legitimate story. I feel like if that was a Democrat or a progressive expressing their own personal history, it would've been validated, it would've been elevated, it would've been celebrated.

If I can push just a little bit further, I consider myself an independent, but I came from conservative roots. I feel these days, if anybody dares to say that America is a place with opportunity and is not universally primarily racist, they get shot down. Their story isn't legit. Maybe I misunderstood but that's how I [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Amanda, you have a long conservative history. I mentioned your many earlier jobs before. What are you thinking as you hear Tammy?

Amanda Carpenter: Yes, I'm surprised. Let me apologize for making you sad, especially this early in the morning on a Friday. As a conservative that's been around South Carolina politics, I personally like Nikki Haley and Tim Scott quite a bit and I think their personal stories are impressive, and think it is very important that the Republican Party is a place where people like a Nikki Haley and Tim Scott can succeed. I apologize if I sound a little jaded, maybe it's because I've listened to those stories a few times. I've been reading all the ads and reading all the speeches and looking primarily to see how they are positioning themselves and where the potential pitfalls are.

I do maintain that there is a fundamental disconnect, maybe feel free to disagree, between saying I experienced racism personally, but America is not a racist country. I just think that's a little bit hard, needs a little bit more explanation, and on a national stage where every word gets parsed, is part of my job to do. That's a question they'll be asked.

Brian Lehrer: For your group at The Bulwark, never Trump conservatives, if you accept that label, do you expect to endorse?

Amanda Carpenter: Oh, no, I don't think we're an outlet that does endorsements. No. I don't see that. We have a bunch of different thinkers, we have a couple of progressives on staff, libertarians. There's no way we could uniformly make an endorsement except to say Trump should certainly be off the table.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, Tammy, thank you for your call. Please call us again. Last question. The four we've talked about, Haley, Scott, Hutchinson, Ramaswamy, are they different from each other on any issues, or once we get to the general election campaign, whether it's Trump, DeSantis, or any of them or any other Republican, will they all be touting the same lines of thought?

Amanda Carpenter: I'm not sure about that. I would say 80% to 90%, they're certainly similar. Where they would probably have disagreements is more on foreign policy. I think Nikki Haley has been much more supportive of Ukraine than the rest of the field, even though she's given a nod to the people who would like to get out of that and cut off ties and adopt a more isolation approach by saying stuff like, "We should audit where the money is going."

I would expect her to stand out more in that respect, and that's where I was hoping she would position herself as a experienced diplomat with foreign policy expertise that is very much needed in the Republican primary and on the national stage, because whoever becomes president next, whether it's Biden again, we're going to have a lot of challenges when it comes to China, Russia and figuring out how we can continue to support Ukraine while a lot of the Republicans and Congress seem eager to cut off funding.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda Carpenter, read her at The Bulwark. Amanda, thanks so much.

Amanda Carpenter: Thank you.

 

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.