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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC and yes, for Christians, this week, leading up to Easter Sunday is known as Holy Week, and today is Good Friday. Typically, observant Christians might be in church for services several times over the course of the week, but this is the second Easter week of the pandemic, so nothing is typical. In-person services might be available, but not all churches are allowing that. Some people might not want to be indoors with a group in any case.

Let's spend the last minutes of our show today talking about how to come together spiritually, if not physically. I'm joined for this by Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest who you might remember as the Colbert Report's chaplain when Stephen Colbert did his show as a fake right-wing talk show host. Father Martin is also editor at large of America magazine and the author of a new book Learning To Pray: A Guide For Everyone. Hi, again, Father Martin, so nice to have you back.

Father James Martin: Nice to be back.

Brian: I see you have another title, consultor to the Vatican's Dicastery for Communication. Whoa, share a little Vatican terminology. What does that mean?

Father Martin: Dicastery just means a committee or commission and the Dicastery for Communication is in charge of all the Vatican's external communication so the Holy Seed Press Office, the pope's Twitter account, and I'm a lowly consulter, that is not a very high-positioned job in the Vatican, but it's kind of fun.

Brian: Are you up on the guidelines or who's choosing what for churches and in-person services this weekend? In a random sample, we happened to see two Catholic churches, including St. Patrick's Cathedral, offering ticketed, in-person services to reduce capacity, and some Protestant churches sticking with online-only in our area.

Father Martin: I did a little research before the show this morning and it's a mix. Some parishes, some Catholic parishes have in-person services. They're all distanced, of course. The parish I live next door to, Saint Paul the Apostle, on 60th Street, is having something like that. Others across the country are having them only online, and then some are having a hybrid, in-person and then broadcast live streaming. It's a mix. It depends on the diocese and the pastor, too.

Brian: I think we spoke on the show last year about how the pandemic might add meaning to observe in Good Friday, the day of suffering and death, but add a challenge to Easter, the day of rebirth. With the vaccines, there is a sense that we're getting there?

Father Martin: There is. I think that the Easter readings really speak to that. The reading for Easter morning is Mary Magdalene, and Peter, and the beloved disciples, so-called peering into the empty tomb and wondering what's happening. I think a lot of us feel like we're peering into an empty tomb where there's just a lot of death and suffering, and yet there is this promise of new life. They look in and they see the burial cloth set to the side and there's been sort of an intimation that they're on the brink of something new. I think a lot of us feel like that with the vaccines coming out. Kind of dark, but hopeful as well.

Brian: Your new book, Learning To Pray: A Guide For Everyone, maybe people have been doing a little more praying this year, or just wanting to, or thinking about it. How do you start teaching people who haven't been praying how to begin the practice, learning to pray?

Father Martin: Well, that's a great question. I think the first thing to remind people is that the very desire to pray is coming from God. How else would God draw us closer other than awakening in us, the desire for prayer. Once people can accept that, or encouraged to see that, then it's a little less frightening because they realize it's more of a partnership. Then it's basically encouraging them to be honest in prayer. In the book, I talk about different types of prayer, but also listening in prayer, which doesn't mean hearing voices, or seeing visions. It just means paying attention to the kinds of things that happen in your prayer and in your daily life. To start an honest conversation, if you will, with God.

Brian: You write that one reason people don't pray is that they think they're doing it wrong. Is there a wrong way to pray?

Father Martin: Well, there's not. No, there's not. The problem is that, look let's be blunt, most people they're told, "Oh, the life of prayer is really important for the believer." They sit down and they close their eyes and they say, "Well, now what? Now what's supposed to happen?" That was my experience when I was a Jesuit novice, 30 years ago. I thought, "What is supposed to happen?" In the book, I talk about the kinds of things that can come up in prayer, and in a sense, what to expect. It makes people feel less daunted by it, and that it's more accessible, because it really is, as I say in the subtitle, for everyone.

Brian: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Father James Martin. Do you have a question about Easter, or Good Friday, or about prayer, the subject of his new book? How has your spiritual practice changed this year during all the separation and all this fear? What have you miss most about going to church that logging on hasn't offered, or maybe you found some silver linings? Call us, talk to Father Martin, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280.

For listeners who don't believe in God, is there something that you would say, as a Jesuit priest, but somebody who's got an open mind, I know from talking to you many times, and accept all kinds of people, something that what you call prayer, they could do in some way that gets them the same thing, or does it have to be about thinking of God as a being that they're petitioning?

Father Martin: I've obviously a lot of friends who are agnostics and atheists, and I think meditation is a wonderful thing to do in terms of being more centered, being more aware of things around you and the blessings in your life. Oftentimes, when people ask me that question, there's a kind of curiosity. I say, "Can you admit of the possibility that that curiosity is coming from somewhere else?" I think it's important to be open where people are, and as the expression goes, "God meets you where you are." I try to meet people where they are, wherever they are on their spiritual path.

Brian: Is it okay to ask for things when you pray?

Father Martin: Absolutely. People tend to denigrate that kind of prayer, petitionary prayers, but if you look at the Our Father, Jesus is teaching his disciples how to pray and he says, "Give us this day, our daily bread, forgive us." He's asking for something, or he's encouraging the disciples to ask for something. It's part of being honest in our prayer lives. It's part of being in a relationship with God. I can't imagine one person who has not prayed for a vaccine, and then to get the vaccine. It's part of just being honest. Now, if that's all you do, then the relationship's a little lopsided, but absolutely, it's very appropriate.

Brian: Jackie in Hackensack. You're on WNYC with Father James Martin. Hi, Jackie.

Jackie: Hi. I was just wondering, I got into a debate with my husband last night about this. Is Lenten sacrifices technically over 40 days after Ash Wednesday, which would have been after the mass last night, or is it at the conclusion of, I guess the Saturday night vigil?

Father Martin: Well, you know what, Jackie? We had the same discussion in my Jesuit community last night. Technically, the season of Lent ends on Holy Thursday. I think the practice is that your Lenten sacrifice should probably end on Easter Sunday after mass. It would be weird to sort of start drinking and gorging on chocolate on Good Friday. I would say after Easter Sunday mass, but that's just me.

Brian: Hope that resolves that, Jackie. Katie in Westchester, you're on WNYC with Father James Martin. Hi, Katie.

Katie: Hi. How are you? Hi, Father Martin. I really admire a lot of your writings. Thank you so much for sharing everything you have done on the social media and everywhere.

Father Martin: You're welcome. My pleasure.

Katie: I have to say, I miss singing in the choir. My church choir was small but mighty, and we've essentially been on hiatus for the last 12, 13 months, like most other choirs. I was at morning prayer service this morning, and in that case, I'm the solo chanter, but it's just very strange being back there and not having my choirmates with me.

Father Martin: It's a real lack. I said earlier, I live next to a parish, Saint Paul the Apostle, and we can hear the choir. We can hear the choir through the doors of our house, and I miss it, too. I think one of the things that people are going to be so appreciative when they finally get back, whenever that is.

Brian: Gosh, it's going to be-

Katie: I think so, too.

Brian: - one of the last things back, because of how many people singing together pushes the air around.

Father Martin: Yes. We can all hope for that at some point.

Brian: Katie, thank you. It's been especially cruel during the pandemic for people who find comfort and strength in their group religious practice, whether it's singing in the choir or whatever, and cut off from it at this time that they might need it most. How have you been helping people compensate for that?

Father Martin: Well, you're right. We're naturally social animals and social beings. I always say there's a reason why Jesus called 12 disciples, not just 1 assistant. He knew that we needed one another and we still need one another. Part of it has been being creative. Some parishes, many parishes, if not most at this point, are doing live streaming masses, which is wonderful. They're doing a lot of Zoom events, but of course, as you say, Brian, it's a pale substitute for the real thing. I really do hope that at some point, we'll be able to come together all vaccinated. Again, that's the Easter promise. We're in the empty tomb now, and we're waiting for the real resurrection.

Brian: 12 disciples, not just 1 assistant. These days, there's an algorithm for that, he wouldn't need all that stuff.

Father Martin: Well, I saw, there's something that goes around every year, which is management consultants report to Jesus. I don't know if you've seen it.

Brian: I've never seen that, no.

Father Martin: He goes through all the disciples. Peter, he's unreliable, and he's impetuous. Thomas, he doesn't believe. At the end, of course, from the worldly point of view, the one who makes the most sense in terms of his chief assistant is, of course, Judas. It's about how the world sees things and how God sees things.

Brian: Jesus and the disciples as seen through the lens of the TV series, The Office.

Father Martin: Exactly.

Brian: You ready for an interfaith dialogue? Here's Michael, a rabbi on the Upper Westside. Michael, you're on WNYC with Father James Martin.

Michael: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Father. Thank you for taking my call. To continue on the same point, at least in Judaism, the entire basis of the faith is on communal activity. We've just had Passover Seder staring at screens, which, it's not only not a pale substitute, to me, it just completely misses the point of the faith. It's something that I don't see a substitute for. I wondered what your thoughts on that might be.

The idea in Judaism is that you have to have a minyan to pray, 10 people. Without that, a lot of essential prayers can't be said. It really flies against what we've had to do, and I recognize the necessity, but we've had to do it. It's been, I think, very disruptive of, at least Jewish and other faiths' communal spirituality.

Father Martin: Thanks, rabbi. I agree completely. It's been disruptive. It is a poor substitute, but I would say, for many people, at least in the Catholic church, it does keep them connected in some way, but it is. It's very sad, and we call the mass, the source and summit of Christian worship. It's the highest way that we can pray together. It's a lack for people. I agree. I just want to say thanks for sharing and also, Happy Pesach.

Brian: David in Manhattan. You're on WNYC with Father James Martin. Hi, David.

David: Hi, there. Thank you for taking my call. Father, I just want to ask you, if you could clarify the pope's statement about homosexuality being a sin. Because I have a number of friends of mine that are homosexual, that are now refusing to go to mass because what they're saying is is that the church claims to be "pro-life", but how they're looking at it now, it's just that the pope has essentially condemned, literally, millions of people to death, if not billions, by making such a statement. The anti-homosexual, well, they tend to be fascist, going out now and feeling that they have license to kill.

The pope can glove it in that everybody's supposed to be treated with love, but it seems to me and my friends, as they talk to me about it, from what I'm hearing from them, is that the church is claiming to be pro-life, where at the same time though, it still continues its mission of dehumanizing people, and not accepting that human nature also takes on by the blessing of the Christos, the light of the Christos.

Brian: Father Martin?

Father Martin: Thank you for bringing that up. I actually do a lot of work with LGBTQ Catholics. I know that so many of them were really disturbed, and frustrated, and really angry about the document from Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which basically said that priests could not bless same-sex unions, and also used the word sin to describe those unions. I do know from reports that are pretty accurate, that the pope was, let's just say, that he was not happy with the statement. Even though he affirmed it, it came out under the name of the CDF, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

In the Catholic church, it is two steps forward and one step backward, but by the same token, we have a pope who has gay friends, who just appointed a gay man to a high-level commission in the Vatican, and he tries his best to reach out, but it is. It's a sign of a church that is really struggling with this issue. What I've been trying to do is to help people see, that God loves them, and as a friend of mine likes to say, and that the church is learning to love them.

Brian: Could I ask you, as we go out, and understanding, listeners, that you're not all Catholic or Christian obviously, but here we are on Good Friday with Father Martin, do you have a benediction, a prayer, to send us on our way today at the end of this show?

Father Martin: Yes. Let me think. It might be a little Christian, but I guess people can be okay with that. Let's just take a moment and place ourselves in God's presence. Loving God, we thank You for the gift of life during this Easter Triduum. We thank You, most of all, for the gift of Your Son, whom You raised from the dead to new life. In this season of pandemic, as we all peer into what seems like an empty tomb, give us the faith, hope, and courage to trust in the Easter message, which is that nothing is impossible with You. Amen.

Brian: Amen. You did that so efficiently that we have a few more seconds. I can ask you, since your new book is Learning To Pray: A Guide For Everyone, Catholics often have set prayers, the Hail Mary, one obvious example, do you recommend starting with established prayers for somebody who's just starting to pray, learning to pray, as is the title of your book, or maybe freestyling them?

Father Martin: I ask people to do whatever they're most comfortable with. I think when they're beginning, to take people where they are, so people want to be more freestyle and speak to God. If they want to do centering prayer, or nature prayer, or imagine themselves in a Scripture scene, that's fine. As you were saying, Brian, for many people, those tried and true prayers are much more familiar and comfortable, so that's a great place to start, too. The key is to say that there is no one way to pray, and when people are praying that way, to invite them to other ways of praying too, just to help them explore a little bit.

Brian: Father James Martin, his new book is Learning To Pray: A Guide For Everyone. Thanks for coming on on Good Friday. Happy Easter to you, and always great to talk to you.

Father Martin: My pleasure. Happy Easter.

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