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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. What do you think? Do we really want another book about how parents from different countries are doing better? In the past five years, we've heard from authors who've discovered that German style parenting, or French style parenting is more relaxed, less judgmental, and produced more self-reliant children, but sometimes it's hard to know whether those books are helpful, or only helpful in making American readers feel inadequate about nebulous topics like being carefree enough.

Well, my guest today, also found another country is doing it better, but this time it's on a specific topic that I think every parent wants just as much help as they can get with sex ed. My guest is Bonnie Rough, and her book is called Beyond Birds and Bees: Bringing Home a New Message to Our Kids About Sex, Love, and Equality, and it looks at how the Dutch talk to their kids about sex, in such a way that eliminates shame, and highlights equality and consent, and in an era of getting more serious about gender equality, there may be a real learning opportunity here, so, Bonnie Rough, thanks for your book, and welcome to WNYC.

Bonnie Rough: Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: When your daughter was a baby, I see you and your husband moved temporarily to Holland for a job. How did you begin to notice that the Dutch way of approaching sex and sex ed was different than the American way?

Bonnie Rough: Well, you know how it is when you're a new parent, you're looking everywhere you can to pick up clues and hints from what the other moms and dads, and caregivers, and nannies are doing, so for me, that had started when I was living in the US. We lived in Minneapolis at the time we left to go spend some time in the Netherlands, but that picked up in the sandboxes, and playgrounds, and preschools in Amsterdam where we moved.

I was picking up clues about all kinds of little things, but everything from feeding and sleep, to how much we're going to hover at the playground, but I started to notice a few other things that struck me as rather odd at first. They really jumped out at me. I noticed that parents were really comfortable with nudity around their kids, even in public. There was a big public wading pool in the middle of the Vondelpark in the middle of Amsterdam, and it was really common for kids even up into elementary ages to play in the water naked, or just in their underwear on their way home from, and so there was that kind of level of nudity.

Also, families would be comfortable showering together. The locker room at our local pool was all genders, so I started to see, "Okay, so we're going to be a little more comfortable with nudity around here." In order to get comfortable with that idea myself, I had to start to see this line that seemed really clear to my Dutch friends, but was harder for me to find between everyday non-sexual nudity, and nudity that has to do with eroticism, and I started to wonder, "Is that line a little fuzzier than it needs to be in my own culture at home?"

Yes, nudity was a big piece. Then, also we noticed a lot of real, just straightforward use of language. My daughter's preschool teachers were very clear to use correct anatomical terms, and then, again, this blending of genders, and this comfort with different body parts, so there was one little bathroom in this cute little preschool with little potties in a row, and no dividers, and so the children, whoever was in there, was in there using the bathroom together, and so they were learning about each other and their differences together, which was really interesting too.

Then, even though my child was too young for this, still, I heard that sex ed started for children in the Netherlands in kindergarten when they were about four-years-old. Then, this one seemed really nutty to me. I was also hearing that Dutch parents were likely to consider allowing their teenagers to have sleepovers at home with boyfriends, or girlfriends under the right circumstances.

To me, I couldn't figure out any good reason to do that. I knew that the Dutch were really practical, pragmatic people, so by the time that my family was about finished with our time in the Netherlands, I had these observations, but I wasn't quite piecing them together. I definitely wasn't seeing yet the connection between all of those little things, and something else that was different, which was actually me.

I felt really different in my body as a woman, living in Holland, and among Dutch neighbors, I felt less watched and judged, more acceptable, no matter what I wore, or what choices I was making that day, so those were some of the things I carried back to the US before I had my second daughter. Just this sense of a different approach with younger children around bodies, and real straightforward talk about sexuality, and then this different feeling I had.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, my guest is Bonnie Rough. Her new book is called Beyond Birds and Bees: Bringing Home a New Message to Our Kids About Sex, Love, and Equality, and as you hear she's talking about, and there's a lot of this in the book, how she got different perspectives on sex and sexuality, and sex education by living in Holland for a while.

We can take some phone calls for her, either Dutch people yourselves, if you have connections to Dutch culture, or that's your ancestry, or you're listening in Amsterdam right now. What do you think about the different ways Dutch culture and American culture think, and talk to kids about sexual, or any parent, or anyone else with a comment or a question. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

I also want to make sure that we put this in the context of our contemporary conversation about equality, because now that the MeToo movement, and other things are highlighting the pervasive nature of sexism and harassment in American life and global life, not that it wasn't known before, but there's just more of a certain kind of focus on it these days. Having the talk with kids, or it's an ongoing conversations with kids about sex and gender, take on added urgency and added meaning, so I'm curious how specifically you found that great sex ed, or Dutch-style sex ed can build gender equality.

Bonnie Rough: Yes, exactly. Brian, that was the most thrilling discovery for me, as I started to dig into what I had been feeling when we lived in the Netherlands. We moved back to the US when my oldest daughter was still pretty young, had another baby, and I came back. I'm not somebody who took gender studies courses in college. I didn't-- I even had to do a little homework on correct anatomical terms myself, in order to teach my daughters properly, so I was a pretty good beginner.

I think a lot of us parents are by the time I had my kids, and so I felt like I had a lot of homework to do. One of the things I started to see was just more clarity when we moved back to the US, was how very gendered the choices are that we offer boys and girls from the time they're very young, their toys, their clothes, their subjects, their sports, so I started to get concerned about that, and worry about my kids, and then think back to that feeling that I'd had in the Netherlands of just being acceptable the way I was as a woman.

I realized I want that feeling for my daughters. I want that feeling for their friends, and all children, and all people. I don't want it just for a moment when you splash into another culture. I wanted them to be able to have that as Americans, all their lives. That's what made me want to take a closer look at what was going on in the Netherlands, and what did I learn?

Even though that seems like what they do is maybe very permissive, and might lead to all kinds of mayhem and debauchery, in fact, I learned that Dutch and American kids, or I should say, young people, have sex for the first time at right around the same age, between 17 and 18, but Dutch teenagers give birth five times less often, or I should say we in the US, our teenagers give birth at five times the rate of their Dutch peers.

Then, of course, we catch a lot more STIs. Dutch kids sleep around less. Then, this one really jumped out at me. I was so struck to learn that a Dutch teenager, or a Dutch young adult would be more likely to report that they're-- Actually, twice as likely as an American to report that their first time, however they define that was wanted and enjoyed, well-timed, something that they look back on with positivity.

Whereas I think a lot of-- Well, from what I understand, a lot of American girls, especially, look back on that first time with regret. I thought, "How is this happening? What's the difference?" That's when I finally figured out, "Oh, well, take a look here." The Netherlands is one of the most gender equal countries in the world. The most recent United Nations Development Program report on gender inequality has the Netherlands ranked third for gender equality, whereas in the United States, we don't even crack the top 40.

I realized, "Well, that was that feeling that I was having," and started to see that all those little things that Dutch parents and teachers and caregivers do with children from the time they're babies, letting them explore their bodies, responding differently to them when they discover them, playing doctor with friends, that kind of thing add up to a socialization that teaches egalitarianism in ways that I want so much for this next generation.

Can you imagine what it felt like for that to sink in, to realize, wait, as MeToo is unfolding all around us and go, right here, right now, we have this golden opportunity just based on what we teach our children about sexuality, and gender, and relationships and love, to give them what they need to build a more gender equal generation. I mean, it was mind blowing.

Yes, so coming to that, in the process of writing this book, I realized, this isn't just a book about the birds and the bees. This is a book about bringing the birds and the bees into the 21st century, and it's what so many parents I know are looking for. They'll all say, "I want to be more open with my kids." I want to make sure that I teach them well and without shame, but what does that look like?

I had the same question, and I went back and took a good close look in the Netherlands in classrooms and schools, and also in homes just to see what are people actually saying, and doing in order to get those great outcomes.

Brian Lehrer: Hence this book. Victoria in Princeton, you're on WNYC. Hello, Victoria.

Victoria: Hi, I am so thrilled that we're having this discussion, because we can never have it too much, in my opinion. I was raised by very liberal, European-oriented parents, and then I married somebody who was raised Catholic with a conservative approach, and we always clashed. I mean, he would get very upset if anyone was naked in the house, or anybody was caught masturbating in the house, so it was very culture-clashy, and I ended up being a sex education teacher by profession, and so I have passionate feelings about it, as does your guest, but sometimes in America, we just have to work things out some middle way, which is what happened in my marriage, which was fine, and I also have a trans son today, so I'm proud of him.

Brian Lehrer: Victoria, thank you very much. Eva in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, Eva.

Eva: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I want to thank your guests so much for this book. I'm a sexuality educator. This is information that researchers have been talking about for years, and now this is an opportunity for the general public to understand this. I just want to share quick two stories. I was part of a group of professionals that went to the Netherlands a number of years ago to figure out why they were doing so much better on all the sexual health measures, as your guest discussed.

A group of us had a chance to have a conversation with some adolescent boys, Dutch boys, and there were two things that stuck out. One, this one boy said to us, he was 17. He said, before he had sex with his girlfriend for the first time, her mother, his girlfriend's mother sat him down for two and a half hours, and lectured him on how to be a good lover, so that she would make sure that her daughter's first sexual experience would be pleasurable.

Can you imagine that conversation in the United States? That any conversation that happens with a boyfriend is at the end of a gun, like, "Touch my daughter, and you're dead," so that was the first thing. The second thing was, I had asked one of them whether acquaintance rape. or date rape was an issue in the Netherlands, and they didn't understand the concept. When I explained to them what it was, one of them looked at me quizzically and said, "Why would I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me?"

Brian Lehrer: Yet, my tentacles are going up here like, this may-- This is a little too utopian sounding. There must be date rape, and acquaintance rape in the Netherlands.

Eva: Yes, of course. Right. It's going to be there, but the idea that just this concept that these boys would have, or some of these boys at least would have, why would I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me? Is such a foreign concept. Here, where we see sex as so adversarial, and we teach, especially young men, get it at any cost however way you can, get what's coming to you, as opposed to, this is something that you would only want to do if someone wants to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Then, maybe the rates are different. I guess we'd have to look into that, but, Eva, thank you very much for your call. Let's see if we can get one more in here. Sherry in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Bonnie Rough. Hi, Sherry.

Sherry: Hi, I just wanted to know what you suggest for, if you're the only, or one of the only parents who are giving your kindergartner names for correct anatomical body part names, and being more open, and the rest of the kids in the class come from families where they're more conservative. What do you suggest?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for that question. Bonnie?

Bonnie Rough: Yes, it's a great question. It's something that I really grappled with in the book, because I had the same one. In the Netherlands, on our street in Amsterdam, I'm sure by the time we left, we probably had the most ignorant child in terms of sexuality education, but I thought maybe by the time we moved back to the US, we might have the best educated kid on the block, and did we really want that?

There are lots of families who will give their children knowledge, and then say, "We only talk about these things at home," and I'll be honest, I'm over that. I think it's wonderful for children to have full knowledge, and the key is to normalize that knowledge, instead of to dramatize it, or dress it up like it's a secret, or something we need to keep silent, because that's where the shame comes from, so if they teach their peers, well, lucky peers.

Brian Lehrer: I guess so, and we've just got 45 seconds left. Can you talk a little bit more about the concept of shame? I know you've touched on it, but I think it's very integral to the book, and what you say people have to acknowledge, in order to consider changing their approach.

Bonnie Rough: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Only have 30 seconds.

Bonnie Rough: Okay, so as Americans, we have a tricky legacy, and I know we're all doing the best we can. I mean, and nobody needs to do any of this perfectly. It's an ongoing conversation that happens a little bit at a time, over time, with lots of repetition. There are lots of chances to start over. The trick is, to stay with it so that it feels normal, so that it can be a part of conversation. As easy as why we eat our vegetables, why we take care of our bodies, why we respect other people's boundaries.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. That's the conversation in America these days, some things, I won't mention them, should not be normalized, [chuckles] but maybe some things should. Bonnie Rough is the author of Beyond Birds and Bees: Bringing Home a New Message to Our Kids About Sex, Love, and Equality. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Bonnie Rough: Thank you so much.

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