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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we've been discussing, the nation is reckoning with anti-Asian hate crimes yet again after a 21-year-old white male was charged with fatally shooting eight people at spas in the Atlanta area on Tuesday night. Six of the women who were killed were of Asian descent. While the exact motive of the killer remains unknown, investigators say it's too early to tell, crimes against Asian Americans have been on the rise since the beginning of the pandemic, as we all know. According to Stop AAPI Hate, a nonprofit which tracks hate crimes against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, that's what AAPI stands for, for those of you who don't know. Asian Americans reported being targeted at least 500 times in the first two months of this year.

The total number of complaints amounted to 3,795 over the past year, and that's just what gets reported. Joining me now to discuss this, and we're going to open up the phones for Asian American listeners to talk about what you're feeling, what you're experiencing, how you need to change your behavior, or wish others would change theirs. We'll open the phones in a second with Joo Han, Deputy Director of the Asian American Federation. Welcome to WNYC. Thank you so much for joining us.

Joo Han: Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we are going to open up the phones to our Asian American listeners, what have you experienced this past year? How are you reacting to the seemingly endless reports of crimes committed against members of your communities? What do you want to see enacted on the local and federal level, to stop anti-Asian hate crimes or anything else you'd like to say, as we take this moment to talk about what's happening in our communities and take the rest of our program today? Tweet @BrianLehrer if you want to comment via Twitter, or give us a call at 646-435-7280.

Joo, in the case of the Georgia killings first, investigators have not ruled it out as a hate crime. The suspect, however, told the police he was driven not by racism but by a "sexual addiction" and that spas were something "that he shouldn't be doing." Six of the victims, as we said, were of Asian descent, seven were women. Can you send center Asian American women in this story?

Joo Han: I think oftentimes when you have perpetrators they're not going to be saying that it was driven by racism. We do know the fact that he went and targeted three Asian-owned businesses were the employees were women, immigrant women who are among the most vulnerable in our community, and six of the eight victims were Asian woman. Even if it's not formally being tied to racism in our community, you just cited just really devastating numbers in the past year. Also having a mass shooting of six folks from our community, it's really difficult not to say that it's tied to, in some way correlated to the fact that these were Asian women and the fact that there's been a history of hyper-sexualization and fetishization of our women for decades.

Brian Lehrer: The New York Times reported this morning that many people are starting to talk about how Asian American women are stereotyped culturally. I know many people have talked about this before, obviously, we certainly talked about it on the show over the years, but anew after this horrific set of crimes in Atlanta. The Times article is how this is coming to the fore now for more people and how that aspect of it may need to be re-examined by many people, their cultural stereotypes, and how they may even play into what this killer may have thought of as his sexual addiction. Would you comment on that?

Joo Han: I would say that if you talk to any Asian American woman or immigrant woman, everyone has had some experience tied to their sexuality. Making comments about the fact that women or Asian women are perceived to be passive, but also oftentimes perceived to be sex servants or passive in a way. Expecting the Asian woman to fulfil some sexual fantasy, it's not something that's we're not familiar with. I think the fact that in an industry where oftentimes sex workers are marginalized, that's often not talked about. Their rights and protections, for that reason, are not prioritized.

We do know that, even though he's saying it's sexual addiction, the fact that he targeted these women who were in this industry to survive, and thinking that by killing them or wounding them that he would be able to be free from what he's saying sexual addiction, it's really hard not to see a correlation, right? He didn't go and target random women, it was these massage parlors that are known for having these sort of services that he went and decided to punish or target these women who really had no play in his addiction, but for him that was very much tied together.

Brian Lehrer: Localizing this, do you want any law enforcement response in or around New York City? Are you getting other kinds of support that you might want from local officials that you consider appropriate or enough?

Joo Han: Specifically tied to sex workers or just the anti-Asian violence in general?

Brian Lehrer: Well, I was thinking of anti-Asian violence, but any of it that you want to address.

Joo Han: Yes. the Asian American Federation, we are a nonprofit organization. We work to address the most urgent needs of our community through research and advocacy and special initiatives. Obviously during COVID, for the past year, we've been working to address the surge in anti-Asian violence. The responses from city leaders really haven't been enough. Even in the aftermath of, lately, the media is picking up on really these egregious crimes, but the past year, as you cited these numbers, it's been building up to this moment. Some people in our community that it almost felt inevitable, which is really tragic.

The fact that we have the reporting, we have the ability to report to NYPD and some of this public education being done by Commission on Human Rights, it's just not enough. We've been saying that the immediate need is a street safety piece of it, which is not the piece that exists right now. So we've been pushing the mayor, we've been pushing other lenders to invest in community-based safety solutions that work in partnership with groups like ours and our member organizations, so we can connect people and build a program where we can connect people to safety ambassadors who know how to de-escalate situations, who could escort vulnerable community members, and that we should also support victims.

There's so much language barrier. We're the poorest community in New York City, and the fact that they have to jump through these hoops in order to get access to support services is just more violence on top of what they've already experienced. That investment needs to happen now. California, weeks ago, committed $1.4 million to support the reporting of violence instances, as well as support safety measures. New York hasn't had a response at all near that, and I think all eyes are in New York, where we had the second most number of bias incidents happening. Yet the response has been so muted, in a time where there's been such a high level of violence.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, Asian American and Pacific Islander listeners, what's it like for you now? 646-435-7280. If you want to address policy or governmental response, what do you want from local state or federal government in this year of anti-Asian American hate crimes? 646-435-7280, or just describe your experiences, or even how you feel. Angie in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in. Hi.

Angie: Hi, this is Angie from Brooklyn.

Brian Lehrer: We got you, Angie.

Angie: Hi. Yes. My experience, I moved to New York, in from Brooklyn, from white suburbia. I was born and raised in New Jersey and dealt with a lot of bullying in my life growing up. Brooklyn and New York were always safe havens of diversity for me, but when the pandemic happened, I noticed a lot of different things. I would get onto the subway car, and people would look at me and move on to a different train. I would even see the way that the news covered it, and obviously the way Trump covered it. I could feel like it was going to fester and materialize.

Especially during the election, I was at an outdoor bar with friends and had someone call me a racist slur right in the middle of the street. This place that was before somewhere that I finally felt like home, ,that was so diverse and I felt was so accepting, all of a sudden just became so scary. I'm scared to go onto the subway now and it's been a pretty jarring experience. We talked about solutions, I think that policing is problematic. I think that for me education is where it would start. Some of my friends sent me the curriculum that their children are being taught and I think that being raised in an environment of a lot of bullying, it gives me hope to see that there are people who are raising awareness and are trying to take away these stereotypes and stop tokenizing minorities.

Brian Lehrer: Angie, thank you. Very thoughtful call. Do you want to reflect on it? My guest is Joo Han, deputy director of the Asian American Federation.

Joo Han: Yes, we've heard a lot of concern obviously with the bullying of what Asian kids are likely experiencing, and are experiencing, as well as their parents. I think we do have to address there has to be also resources to be able to address what kids are experiencing. We've had schools reach out to us saying, "We want to do something to provide more safety for our kids and for our parents." We've had some interest in even the safety ambassador program for our parents, Asian parents who themselves don't necessarily feel safe. This idea too is, could we also extend this idea of creating safety ambassadors among our kids to be able to create that culture of inclusivity?

I also think, being a former teacher myself, I know that oftentimes that teachers are strapped. I know schools are strapped for resources and it's difficult to make this a priority but I think in a time where it's anti-Asian violence but really it's violence against all communities of color. We do need to be able to prioritize what we teach in the classroom, what we as a school create a culture of, because that mental health impact and the effect on the identity of kids, like Angie was saying, during our formative years when you feel like you don't belong.

That you are less than, and for some reason because of the way you look you're going to get targeted, it can have huge consequences for the current moment but also as people grow older and have to deal with the mental health fallout of that. Angie, I really appreciate that you brought up that point and the need to actually devote resources to supporting our kids through all of this.

Brian Lehrer: Michelle in Ridgewood Queens you're on WNYC. Hi Michelle.

Michelle: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hi there?

Michelle: Hello?

Brian Lehrer: We got you.

Michelle: Hi.

Brian Lehrer: Hi Michelle.

Michelle: Hi. I used to live in Bushwick and I've been in America for about 10 years. I moved from Australia where the racism was pretty overt but it was really violent. I rarely felt violent intent. It was one of the things I loved about being here because it wouldn't happen as often. I moved to Ridgewood about four years ago and the Eastern European Community wasn't very nice but it was getting there. Then the pandemic started and then it just started all over again. Just people not really wanting to serve you and just not understanding what you're saying or whatever. Just unwilling to speak English to you.

At the start of the pandemic, I went and got groceries with my friends and they were waiting outside and two men came in and came and coughed behind me. They were just staring me down the whole time. It just got to the point where I didn't feel safe just going North by myself anymore and I had to be escorted.

Brian Lehrer: What do you do? You tried to be escorted?

Michelle: I work from home.

Brian Lehrer: I didn't mean what do you do for a living. How do you compensate for that fear of going out?

Michelle: I only go South generally now, I feel more safer around the Latina Community. All my friends would tell me when they were going North to get groceries I would go with them. I haven't gone by myself in a very long time. One of the callers mentioned about the subway prior to the pandemic really starting here, like January, February, people were avoiding sitting next to me. There'd be a full train and I'd have an open seat by the time I got to Manhattan. The only people that'd sit next to you would be either Asians or other people that were extremely sick. That's been my experience.

Brian Lehrer: I'm sorry it's been that hard but I'm glad you called and articulated that. What should be shocking but maybe isn't even shocking at this point is how many callers we have on the board with similar stories of how some people have treated them. Michelle thank you very much. Let's go to Cynthia in Monmouth County. You're on WNYC. Hi Cynthia.

Cynthia: Hi, yes I'm a Chinese American doctor and I'm sick and tired of taking care of these COVID patients in nursing homes and then getting called Chink. I'm taking care of 6 patients in nursing homes and then what do I get? I don't get any appreciation. I get called a Chink and it really makes me very, very angry. I would like to see Mitch McConnell, I would like to see his wife Elaine Chao, I would like to see President Biden make stronger statements. First of all, the Chinese government has the most amount of American dollars in the world. Would they really bankrupt the United States so they can bankrupt themselves?

This coronavirus existed three years before it appeared in humans. It was found in bat viruses three years ago. Unfortunately, it happened to land up in humans but mother nature-- This coronavirus was categorized three years ago. I am really pissed off because I'm busting my butt off in nursing homes taking care of COVID patients and I'm getting called nasty names. I also want to mention that there are some three elderly Chinese men, Asian men that were killed. One in Arizona, Juanita Flaco, one in Los Angeles. They're not going after young men, they're going after women and they're going after elderly people. That's four off these attacks. Asians are defenceless.

Brian Lehrer: Cynthia I'm going to leave it there and get a response as we're almost out of time in the show but thank you very much for your call. Joo Han, deputy director at Asian American Federation, you want to react to any of those last calls?

Joo Han: Yes, the outrage is real. I think it's just an accumulation of feelings, victimized, even though obviously some of our frontline workers are of Asian and Pacific Island descent. I think that what we need to do, and I think that some of our community-based organizations who have years of experience of safety that we've been working closely with, is we do need to create environments where there's safety. Businesses need to sign up to be safe zoned where people can go and know that any acts of racism or violence won't be accepted. If they do feel unsafe that they can go to the small business owner and say, "I want to report this, or I want support. Can you connect me to somebody?"

That's important. I do think hospitals where obviously there's a lot of frontline workers but also patients who are of Asian descent, we've also heard from community members that they don't feel safe going even though they're not feeling well because they know that they're going to get treated poorly while they're in those spaces. I think hospitals, hospital leaders also have to put out statements and measures in place so that there's a sense of safety and acceptance within those walls. It's a matter of not just a statement. Are there services to support your Asian staff? Are there services to support your Asian patients?

I think there has to be programs in place to ensure that sense of psychological and physical safety instead of just putting out statements at this point. That's no longer adequate.

Brian Lehrer: The last caller Cynthia mentioned older men as well as women, in general, being targeted. I wonder if that's your experience or your group's findings or observations? I wonder if it relates to one of the things that we heard when we were talking about this as a New York City issue a few weeks ago, which is that some of the violence against Asian Americans in the past year isn't like, "I hate your ethnic group," but that Asian Americans are stereotyped as vulnerable and passive.

Joo Han: You know, I think that contributes to part of it. That sense of the perpetual foreigner and the model minority myth are things that all come together in a perfect storm to scapegoat a group of people that appear to be vulnerable. When you have older folks who are physically more fragile, who to others may seem as though they don't belong, and potentially this stereotype that they don't speak English well. They think, "Hey, even if we target them," for whatever reason because we want to take something or just whatever act of violence, "they're not going to fight back or they're not going to report because they don't necessarily have the access."

I think the sense of the older community, after women we know that older are also being targeted. Especially in the news, we've been seeing that they don't have safety nets in that way and that support. It's easier, that thinking that there's no accountability if you target folks who don't have safety and support behind them. I think that's tragic. I think what's caused outrage in the past month has been, these people are our parents, they're our grandparents, they're our aunts and uncles and they are ending up in hospitals because perpetrators think that they are easy targets. That's heartbreaking, and no elder should feel they're in fear of their lives because they take a walk or go to the grocery store or go to a place where they're working.

Brian Lehrer: 30 seconds left in the show. How can other people help who aren't Asian American? How can they stand up for their Asian American neighbors if they're not policymakers?

Joo Han: I think there's a few things. I think one is, we really do need to call on our electeds and ask them, "What are you doing to create more safety for Asian Yorkers?" If our community is targeted, no community is safe. We know that from past experience. I think that there's a lot of community-based organizations, the work that we're trying to do is get a program up and going where we can connect community members who need escort services, or just more safety in the neighborhoods, to be able to train folks to provide these safety measures.

Please connect with the Asian American Federation if you're interested in supporting something like that, but also think about how you can help out neighbors. In the companies and the organizations that you work, ask your leaders what are they doing to create safety for their staff. It's also people on the streets in our neighborhoods, but it's people we work right next to you that may also not feel safe on a day-to-day basis.

Brian Lehrer: Joo Han, Deputy Director at the Asian American Federation. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances.

Joo Han: Thank you so much for having me.

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