[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Parents and grandparents of the world, take note this morning. Your kids and grandkids may be angrier about the climate you're leaving them than you are and than you realized. You're probably hearing that the COP26 Climate Summit with President Biden and other world leaders is taking place today in Glasgow, Scotland, right?

COP, by the way, in case you're hearing this term and you don't know what it means, COP stands for Conference of the Parties of the Paris Climate Accords of 2015. It's their 26th meeting, so COP26. What you may not be hearing about is protests by most of the young people that are taking place alongside COP26. For example, yesterday at the official opening speech by COP26 President Alok Sharma who is a member of the British parliament, he got interrupted by a group of young protesters, accusing him of spouting words without actions to back them up. Listen carefully.

[crowd chanting]

There was that at the opening of COP26 yesterday as one example, and there was 18-year-old Greta Thunberg on the BBC. She's, of course, most well known for giving voice to generational anger at what her peers are being handed to solve themselves. Greta was asked if some of the young activists' disruption tactics are worth it, given the criticism that those tactics draw.

Greta Thunberg: Of course, to make clear, as long as no one gets hurt. Then, I think sometimes you need to anger some people. For instance, the School Strike Movement would never have become so big if there wasn't friction, if some people didn't get pissed off.

Brian Lehrer: The School Strike Movement, referring to the Fridays for Future School Climate Strikes of 2018 and 2019, Greta Thunberg on that BBC going into COP26. Consider this number from a pew research poll released this spring. Two-thirds of Gen Z Americans, that is 67% of Americans, 23 year old, 22 years old, or younger say they've talked about the need for climate action in the past few weeks. It was almost as high from millennials, 61% but down to 53% of Gen X Americans and 50% of baby boomers.

Fairly different across the generations, how much people are talking on an ongoing basis. The question was in the last few weeks about the need for climate action. There are other numbers in that pew poll that indicate the younger Americans inheriting the climate crisis are more engaged with the issue than the older Americans who were leaving them with it.

We'll use that as a starting point for the COP26 conversations that we'll be having this week and welcome our first guest, Marcela Mulholland, political director of the progressive think tank, Data for Progress. Her Twitter feed this weekend included a lot about the climate. There was also something about a Halloween costume that we'll get into. Marcela, thanks for coming on when you might rather be watching this summit unfold. Welcome to WNYC.

Marcela Mulholland: Thanks so much for having me on, Brian. I'm excited to talk with you.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll give the phones in this segment to anyone in the millennial or Gen Z age groups. That's a lot of people, but do you think you are more concerned about the climate than your parents' and grandparents' generations? 212-433-WNYC as we'll open up the phones right away on this. Do you advocate more action to stop climate change than your parents or grandparents do? 212-433-9692. What kinds of conversations about the climate are you having with your peers or intergenerationally? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

Do you think the world's political leaders, and maybe this is where push really comes to shove, do you think the world's political leaders who are overwhelmingly older than millennials don't get it enough to do it really has to be done at COP26 or in any other way, or anything else you want to say as COP26 goes on, Gen Z and millennial age listeners? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, with my Marcela Mulholland, political director of Data for Progress. Marcela, first things first, was the Halloween costume photo you going as Kyrsten Sinema?

Marcela Mulholland: Yes, it was. I thought the purple wig and the broken foot boot gave it away, but yes, I dressed up as one of the scarier characters of this season of American politics for Halloween.

Brian Lehrer: Very hilarious. You tweeted, "Parents are really taking my costume to heart." What kinds of reactions did you get?

Marcela Mulholland: [chuckles] Well, my parents are Florida swing voter baby boomers. They're amused by my political antics and are now referring to me as Senator because of the costume. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: That is deadly hilarious. I will say it's been Senator Joe Manchin from the coal state of West Virginia who's been open about his objections to the clean power part of the Build Back Better bill. Sinema has been largely silent, I think, except for denying a New York Times report that she was looking to cut the climate spending portion. How do you see her role in that compared to Manchin's?

Marcela Mulholland: I think, obviously, both of them have been really difficult characters in the whole infrastructure negotiations of the last several months. Manchin, obviously, is from West Virginia. To what you mentioned, it's a really coal-heavy state. I think he is really protective of continuing the trajectory of the coal industry's existence in that state, which doesn't look very good in general.

Sinema, on the other hand, is from Arizona, which is a state that is already experiencing really drastic extreme heat events, and I think perhaps she's feeling more pressure from her constituents and just reading the room that Arizona is a state that's really going to be dealing with climate impacts, so has chosen perhaps other areas of the bills and the infrastructure fight to stake her claim on. For instance, prescription drug negotiation, some of the other areas that she's been more obstructionist on compared to climate, whereas I think Joe Manchin really sees it as his job to be seen as killing a lot of these climate provisions, unfortunately.

Brian Lehrer: Still thinking about that costume, and you go with the boot, which shows Kyrsten Sinema's injured foot. I wonder if anybody in New York was quick enough on the uptake after the Republican mayoral candidate Curtis Sliwa got injured in an accident with a taxi cab on Saturday, I guess, and broke his arm.

Marcela Mulholland: Oh no.

Brian Lehrer: To go as Curtis Sliwa in a sling, that would have been a good couple's costume. I'm thinking--

Marcela Mulholland: That would have been a good couple costume.

Brian Lehrer: Right? Curtis Sliwa in a sling and Kyrsten Sinema in a boot going door to door in New York City. [chuckles]

Marcela Mulholland: Yes. Very niche, very niche. I think for the people who understand it, it's funny. I think with the boot, it's just like all of this feels a bit absurd at times. I remember, I mean, Sinema wears all these eccentric outfits, and then was like having loop broken foot while she was making all these press conferences. It all felt a bit dystopic, but yes, niche political costumes are my thing.

Brian Lehrer: Marcela Mulholland, political director of Data for Progress, our guest. We'll get to your phone calls in just a minute. Our lines are already totally full. How much of a generational divide to help set up these calls on climate action or maybe I should say on climate urgency do you see or do you see as important?

Marcela Mulholland: Yes. I mean, I think one of the concerns that younger people have is that many of the lawmakers determining climate policy in the United States and globally are much less impacted by the effects of the incoming climate crisis because they're much older than us. The truth is that my generation, younger generations, will be the ones to take on the climate crisis.

The weight of that responsibility is really reflected on the public opinion that we see with young voters across the country really consistently ranking climate change as one of their top priorities for Congress to act on. We're seeing it with the activism that's taking place in Glasgow right now at COP26 that you mentioned earlier with Greta and some of the other climate activists interrupting speeches and really calling for more action to happen quickly.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Claudia in Rockland County, you're on WYNC. Hi, Claudia. Thanks a lot for calling.

Claudia: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I'll just keep my intro really brief. I went to school for environmental policy and science, undergrad and master's at Columbia. My work right now is being an admin and outreach person for an organic farm in Rockland County called The Pfeiffer Center.

I just wanted to say as a '94 baby, right on the cusp of millennials and Gen Z, I feel everyone I'm talking to who's in my age group is talking about where to buy land and where to live in the future based on climate change, talking about more localized food systems, talking about using food systems and regenerative ag to actually heal climate change, and that these are conversations that we need to not only be having now, but we don't have until 2050 to hope for net-zero, we need to start talking about net-zero now.

I really resonate with what I just heard, which is that we are going to be the ones who carry this. I've worked in academia, I've worked in nonprofits, I've worked with children three to five, teaching gardening. These are the things that are priorities, and all my elders who are not in farming or in agriculture, my parents, people who paid for me to go to school, they are just like, "Okay, business as usual. Oh, great. Are you having fun on the farm?" No, actually, we all need to be concerned about this. It's just hard to even have these conversations with people who are, I think, not seeing this future the same way that folks who are in their 20s and 30s are, who remember when it snowed on Halloween in New York 10 years ago.

Brian Lehrer: Marcela, do want to talk to Claudia?

Marcela Mulholland: Hey, Claudia, thanks so much for your call. I couldn't agree more with what you've raised. I think young people really have a heightened awareness about the fact that we're living at a time where our planet is really on the precipice of either us changing and transforming our society for the better, or our generation and our children and our grandchildren having to really grapple with a planet that's much more different than the one that we grew up with.

Sunrise Movement is having their 13th day of folks doing a hunger strike today outside of the White House, calling for climate action, calling on the President and Congress to prioritize this. People are really putting their bodies on the line and showing how important this issue is for us. I really agree with you, Claudia, and appreciate all the work that you're doing. Thank you.

Claudia: Thank you guys for making space for this for folks to hear it. Keep doing it.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks a lot, Claudia. Let's go right to another caller. Here's Stephanie in Bloomfield. Stephanie, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Stephanie: Hi, good morning. The thing that this conversation brings up for me is that I wish that more often we would include conversations when we're talking about generational differences and how we view climate change, also race and class, and how that plays into it. For me, the conversations I'm having with my boomer parents who are immigrants and working-class immigrants and who are experiencing the effects of climate change in their jobs, and how it's impacting them every day, and how they're seeing that climate change impacts their home country is different.

I personally, yes, I'm a millennial, and I'm talking about it with my friends and peers as well, but I'm also having those conversations with my parents. I guess they're just feeling it in a different way. There are generational differences, but I oftentimes think that when we talk about these generational differences, we're usually thinking about boomer generation is white, middle-class and upper-middle class. I think there's just something different happening when we take into account race and class.

Brian Lehrer: Great point. Marcela, you want to expand on that or react to it?

Marcela Mulholland: Yes, I totally agree. My mom is an immigrant from Latin America as well and is a baby boomer, so has some of the preconceptions that are traditionally stereotypes of baby boomers, but also has the perspective of an immigrant and someone who sees her country of origin and the United States trajectory really impacted by climate change, and is concerned about environmental justice issues and how this disproportionately affects people of color.

I think when we talk about the generational divide, you're absolutely right, it's much more complicated than just thinking about baby boomers as old white people who are out of touch. We need to be talking about and talking to people of all class backgrounds, people of color, immigrants about climate change, especially because those are often the communities that are going to be disproportionately impacted.

I grew up in South Florida, and we have a really big immigrant farmworker community, and a lot of these folks are already dealing with the impacts of climate change every single day in their work outside. I think those communities are often forgotten and not centered in the climate conversation, and they really should be.

Brian Lehrer: Stephanie, thanks for raising the point.

Stephanie: Thanks so much.

Brian Lehrer: Let me go next to-- I think this might be a little bit of pushback, or maybe it's going to wind up leading us right to a central point about the COP26 talks, Ahmed in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ahmed, thanks for calling in.

Ahmed: Brian, for the first time, I'm calling you, I'm so upset at your guest. There is a war going on in West Africa for almost 28 years between Morocco and Sahara people for potassium salts. I have two relatives, they died in that. We keep talking about clean energy, clean energy. What are the source for the solar panels, the materials? Third World country. People, kids are moving titanium in Congo Republic. Stop this nonsense.

We don't need clean energy, we need policies. Policies that can protect Third World countries and obviously the rich country like us, because I'm lucky, she's lucky that she's here. She forgets what's happening in Colombia right now. Come on, let's be honest about each other. Clean energy, clean energy, protest this, protest that. Policies must be made to benefit everybody. Guess what? We don't have the people, we just have statements.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not sure I totally understand your point. Are you saying that environmental policies aren't taking developing countries like Morocco, where some of those production things are going on that you cited, into account enough to protect them? I'm not sure I understand your point, how you're tying that country to this country.

Ahmed: My point is this source of clean energy, clean energy, but people have to look at where are the raw materials coming from. If the raw materials coming up in the sense that two of my relatives died, that is not the right policy because you're sacrificing a lot of people for a minority rich countries. We have more poor in this world than having rich people. That's my problem with all these statements. Do you understand where I'm going, Brian, with this? You can-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I think I do now, but that puts you on the side of a serious crackdown on climate pollution because it's being generated by the consumption in the rich countries, which may be the part that we don't talk about enough is things like the deaths of the people who you cited back in Morocco, producing the raw materials, but it puts you on the same page of being really, "We need to be really tough on climate stuff."

Ahmed: No, not necessarily, because we cannot afford to have a clean solar panel. We still rely on coal. If you sacrifice that, then our economy will be damaged. You're making us poorer and poorer. We have to have policies that can work with everyone in the box. We're not in the box. How many people, they go from Morocco to these type of conferences? How many people that can afford to speak their own side, or Congo Republic?

Brian Lehrer: Ahmed, thank you very much. Really interesting point. Marcela, what are you thinking?

Marcela Mulholland: I'm not sure I super followed all of that. I think the big picture for me that I was taking away here is the United States is disproportionately responsible for global greenhouse gas emissions, so we certainly have a large and disproportionate role to play in the solution. I think I'll speak for myself and I know from a lot of my friends in the climate movement here in the United States, a lot of the reason why we get involved is out of a sense of solidarity for people in other countries that have less geopolitical power than the United States.

I certainly feel a great deal of moral and political responsibility as a US citizen who has a voice in a country that is extremely wealthy and has, like I said, a disproportionate historic responsibility for creating the climate crisis. Because of that, I feel like I need to use my voice to fight for young people in other countries, be it Morocco or elsewhere, who don't have the privileges that I have as a US citizen to call for our Congress, our President, the global international community, to really prioritize climate action.

I also would say, it's a real concern, what I think the caller was getting at, about where materials for solar panels and some of these other clean energy products come from. That's a real issue. I think the solution isn't opposing clean energy investments. Rather, it's favoring climate provisions and climate policies that really center environmental justice, that build out domestic manufacturing in the United States so that we can make sure that the materials that are going into solar panels are worked on from laborers that are unionized and are protected and are not being exploited like I think the caller was raising concerns about, if I understood correctly. I would just say a lot of people get involved in this because they do care about folks in other countries who are experiencing the impacts of climate change.

Brian Lehrer: I see. He was talking about some of the workers who are producing materials for what we see as renewable energy, also being victimized and exploited by that. It's good that you bring up unions and labor standards and stuff as we transition to renewables. I guess he wanted some more leeway for developing countries to use coal because he threw that in there.

In fact, the New York Times has a pretty comprehensive COP26 preview article by Somini Sengupta that includes an analysis of the divisions that make COP26 likely to disappoint. They include the United States and Europe against emerging industrial economies like China, India, and South Africa that still want room to develop their industrial economies and not have to slow down as much as us on fossil fuels. Then even those countries as emerging polluters against small vulnerable countries like the low-lying island nations of the Caribbean and South Pacific which might find themselves literally underwater. How can things like those be resolved?

Marcela Mulholland: I think you raise a good point about this being really a global problem that requires international cooperation, and Data for Progress released some polling ahead of COP26 that showed that a majority of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans all want the United States to work with other countries to address climate change. I think specifically, often, people will raise concerns like if these other big emitters aren't doing enough on climate, why should the United States?

What our polling shows is that that kind of messaging really doesn't persuade many voters. We find that a majority of voters want the US to lead on climate, even if other countries are slower to take action. I think what's really clear here is that there's broad support amongst the American electorate for the United States to take a leadership role both domestically and globally to tackle this issue.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to take a short break, we'll take more phone calls. If you're a member of the two youngest generations that we generally refer to Gen Z, roughly 23 years old or younger, or millennials, as we talk about the generational divide, and the urgency that people feel with respect to climate action as the COP26 Climate Summit is taking place with President Biden and other world leaders, and there are a lot who didn't show up in Glasgow, Scotland right now talking about it with Marcela Mulholland, political director of the progressive think tank, Data for Progress. If you're in Gen Z or in the millennial generation, call and talk about how you see climate urgency different from your parents' or grandparents' generation, and we'll continue to get into what's actually going on with COP26. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Stay with us.

[music]

Brian Lehrer, WNYC, as we continue to talk about the COP26 Climate Summit going on in Glasgow right now with President Biden and others, and the generational divide with Marcela Mulholland, political director of the progressive think tank, Data for Progress, and your calls from Gen Z and millennial callers. Catherine in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine: Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. Both my husband and I are millennials, and we work in climate change adaptation. I'm in adaptation for housing, he's in renewable energy. Something that really struck me about my parents who are upper middle-class white baby boomers, talking about climate change, was that it really shifted for them when they started to look at houses down the shore to retire to and watching my dad suddenly look at things like flood factor and check to see if the property that we're going to invest in was climate-resilient.

I think that speaks to a larger issue where focusing on future generations doesn't do the trick anymore. I think it's a little bit antiquated as well since climate change is here. I think baby boomers and Gen Xers would talk more about the issue if we framed it as something that's happening now and happening to them and has impacts on their lives currently, not just their grandkids. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Marcela, you think that's changing already in that direction, maybe because of the severe weather events that have taken place around the world this year?

Marcela Mulholland: Yes. I think there's no question that we need to stop talking about climate change as something that's a far-off threat, and rather address it as a problem that's already here and is already impacting people's lives and livelihoods today. I mentioned earlier, I grew up in South Florida and my parents live really close to the beach.

I think, whether or not your political views or political affiliation are aligned with progressive climate activists or not, there are people who already live near the water, already live in hurricane-prone areas and places with heat waves that are seeing and considering climate change in their decisions about the future, be it homeownership, or otherwise. I think that's a really fair point.

We saw in our polling, increase support for climate action or increased concern for extreme weather events after the hurricane season we saw in the wildfires out west in California, and I anticipate that will only become more and more true, unfortunately, every year as these extreme weather events become more dire and impact even more people than they already are.

Brian Lehrer: She makes an interesting point about messaging, like maybe there's a way to say, "Yes, this is going to affect your kids and your grandkids and be concerned for that reason, but this is going to affect your retirement today, tomorrow, 10 years from now."

Marcela Mulholland: Totally, yes, I think that's a really valid point, especially for older people and people who are concerned about their savings and their property and other things like that. You certainly should adapt your messaging, I think, to what the values and priorities are for the audience that you're speaking to.

Brian Lehrer: Joe in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi. Thanks, Brian. I love the show. I'm calling to say, back in 2019, when Greta Thunberg came through, I was marching with all of them, and it was very inspiring, but I realized my parents and grandparents, it sounds very cynical to say, are going to leave the world before it gets really awful. I want to echo what other callers said is, a lot of people my age are looking uplands. I personally grew up in New Jersey, I looked up what 2 feet of sea rise will do because we were hit pretty hard with Sandy. I think most people, my parent's generation, are more concerned with what will happen to their property as opposed to what will happen 80 years later.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thank you very much. Are you watching COP26, Joe, with any kind of eye to the specifics coming out of it, or does it look like a lot of fuzz from a lot of older world leaders?

Joe: Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of fuzz. I really have been disillusioned with electoral politics lately. I've wondered, for example, even if the Green New Deal had its best-case scenario maybe 20 years down the line, what would that even look like, especially in regards to the previous caller regarding resources in other worlds, other countries? It's tough to say.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thank you very much. Well, to that point, and to some of what we've been talking about, thinking about the previous caller, Marcela, the earlier caller, who said 2050, for net-zero emissions from the United States, is too long to wait. President Biden cites that number, that date. Of course, he's in Glasgow right now.

I want to play three clips of Biden from his Earth Day speech, April 22nd of this year, and get your take, your assessment of US climate policy under Biden and how much you think he's delivering going into Glasgow because he says he's trying to bring other world leaders along. I'm curious how much you think he's bringing himself along. He listed, on Earth Day, a whole number of things that climate policy means to him, that instead of thinking about climate protection policy as costing the economy, for example, think of it as creating a whole raft of categories of new jobs. Here's one of them that he cited.

Joe Biden: I see workers capping hundreds of thousands of abandoned oil and gas wells that need to be cleaned up and abandoned coal mines that need to be reclaimed, putting a stop to the methane leaks, and protecting the health of our communities.

Brian Lehrer: That's one, and we've talked already in the segment about agriculture, the way it's done in the world these days, generally as such a big contributor to the climate crisis. The President brought that up on Earth Day two.

Joe Biden: I see farmers deploying cutting-edge tools to make soil of our Heartland, the next frontier in carbon innovation.

Brian Lehrer: He had a whole long list of other American jobs that he thinks could be created through Build Back Better and other climate policies, and then he put it in the global perspective.

Joe Biden: These steps will set America on a path of net-zero emissions economy by no later than 2050, but the truth is, American represents less than 15% of the world's emissions. No nation can solve this crisis on our own, as I know you all fully understand. All of us, and particularly those of us who represent the world's largest economies, we have to step up.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden on Earth Day, April 22nd this year. Marcella, compare and contrast what you've been hearing from President Biden on Earth Day or through the year, or what's actually in Build Back Better, which is still being debated in Congress, see your Halloween costume of Kyrsten Sinema, and what he's proposing at Glasgow at COP26 compared to what you advocate at Data for Progress or other youth-driven climate crisis movements like the Sunrise Movement.

Marcela Mulholland: I think it's important to take a moment and just recognize really how far the climate movement has been able to push the Democratic party on climate. Just a few years ago, and in the last Democratic administration, it really would have been unfathomable to have Democratic leadership in Congress and in the White House talking about climate change in the way that we're hearing them talk about it. Now, like we just heard Joe Biden talk about it in the speech clips you played, I think we should feel really excited and inspired by that.

Obviously, getting folks to pay lip service to an issue is different than actually getting legislation passed, especially in the US Senate where we have things like the filibuster and these really anti-democratic policies and practices that make it extremely difficult to get things passed. I think as lawmakers finalize the details of the Bill Better Act, it's really clear that voters and the American public strongly support investments to tackle climate change and transition to clean energy. They really support policies that center farmers like President Biden mentioned in the speech you just played, workers, clean energy workers, things like a Civilian Climate Corp to put millions of Americans to work on this issue.

While the plan isn't as ambitious as folks like myself would hope, it's not as ambitious as President Biden's initial plans and proposals on the campaign trail and at the beginning of his term, but there's no question that if we are able to pass the reconciliation package and the Build Back Better Act, we'll make huge strides toward addressing the climate crisis. There's more than $555 billion in climate spending, which is exponentially larger than any prior climate investments that the US government has made in the past.

Unfortunately, this is a problem that's big enough to where that still isn't enough. There's no question that we really need to get these two infrastructure bills passed and we need to do it quickly and then continue working on all of the other levers that the government has to help to advance de-carbonization be it through the agencies and the regulatory system or otherwise.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to leave it there with Marcella Mulholland, political director for Data for Progress, except to ask you, what do you see as success? What should we look for as potential success, or maybe the best potential case scenario after all this preview coverage leading up to COP26, honestly, has been about how disappointing it's likely to be. Putin isn't there, Xi Jinping isn't there. John Kerry on behalf of president Biden has been going around the world. He hasn't been able to get the commitments that he's wanted from Saudi Arabia, big oil-producing country, and other places. What's the most that we can expect out of COP26 this week, and will it be something that you could even potentially hail as success?

Marcela Mulholland: I think success to me looks like ending this week with the United States having passed two infrastructure packages that make really big down payments and investments in our climate and our country and world's future. Obviously, with COP26 happening, all eyes are on the international stage, but in order for any of the words that US diplomats, be it Kerry or even President Biden say abroad, they really need to follow it up with action here domestically. What that means is passing the Build Back Better Act, getting the climate investments that we've all fought so hard for actually across the finish line signed into law so that we can really get to work here on de-carbonizing the United States, and as a consequence of that, helping the whole world tackle climate change.

Brian Lehrer: Marcella, thanks for joining us today.

Marcela Mulholland: Thanks for having me.

 

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.