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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and we're going to wrap up today's show with a call in for people in your 20s and 30s on your relationship with work, 212-433-WNYC. Why that? We're continuing the conversation we started yesterday in this last segment of the show with journalist and author, Simone Stolzoff about work and culture in the country, particularly our tendency to see identity and purpose largely from our jobs. Stolzoff called this workism, as some of you heard yesterday, and described it as an ideology that asks two distinct pursuits, money and personal fulfillment to coalesce.

Why follow up with a call in just for people in your 20s and 30s? Some Gen Zers on our team have a theory that there may be a generational aspect to workism. Maybe Gen Z and younger millennials have a different relationship to work than say, Gen X or baby boom listeners. Remember the book that we discussed yesterday? It was called The Good Enough Job by Stolzoff. Maybe Gen Zers and younger millennials are moving away from the pursuit of a dream job as much, and instead are seeking good enough jobs to cite that title and that phrase. Good enough jobs that allow you to pay the bills, but enjoy life outside of work more.

Listeners in your 20s and 30s, does this sound like you? Does this sound like people you know? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you're in your 20s or your 30s, what is your relationship with your work as you conceive of it? That is, do you strongly identify with your job or career, or are you happy with a good enough job? How do your attitudes toward your work compare to those of your parents? Another key question here, or other adults in your life who may be boomers, or Gen X, or older millennials. 212-433-WNYC. If you're in your 20s or your 30s, 212-433-9692.

I think we all know that during the height of the pandemic, Gen Zers and young millennials across the internet popularized the phrase, "I don't dream of labor" and shared their stories of toiling at jobs in prestigious companies experiencing burnout and redefining their relationship with work. Here's how YouTuber Zoeunlimited described her experience of obtaining a dream job in her video. If you don't dream of labor, how to be unstuck if you want to quit your job but need money. 45 seconds of Zoeunlimited on YouTube.

Zoe: Getting into UCLA, graduating with a Summa Cum Laude, working at a prestigious firm, living in the beautiful city of LA, I thought I have made it. I did everything right on paper, but somehow a lack of meaning developed as a black hole inside me growing bigger and stronger every day. I was starting to have countless breakdowns at the job I used to be so proud of. Why couldn't I just be happy? Wasn't this the dream I was searching for? No one dreams of labor. Most people, especially Gen Zs and millennials are realizing that we've been working not because it's our dream to, but to play by the rules of a system.

Brian Lehrer: All right, so listeners, does this sound like you? Do you not have a dream job because you don't dream of labor as that phrase goes, or do you want your career to provide you with personal fulfillment, friendships, identity, or anything besides money in a similar way to your older siblings or your parents? 212-433-WNYC if you're in your 20s or your 30s, 212-433-9692 on your relationship with work and career, and if you think there are generational differences emerging on that. 212-433-9692. Give us a call or send us a text and we'll take your calls right after this.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and now to your calls from listeners in your 20s or 30s on your relationship with work, starting with Sam in Hicksville. Hi Sam, you're on WNYC.

Sam: Hi Brian. Thanks for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Sam: I work a full-time job in an office. I've got my career going, and I do take a little bit of fulfillment from my work because I know I'm working towards the greater goal that I'm trying to achieve next, but I also appreciate the fact that I work to live, not live to work.

Brian Lehrer: What do you see as your greater goal?

Sam: We're saving up to buy a little property upstate and then start growing.

Brian Lehrer: Neat. That's pretty different, Sam. Thank you very much. Ronan in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ronan.

Ronan: Hi, Brian. Thanks so much for taking my call. By the way, Sam, get in touch with me. I want to hear about this commune. Listen, so I was 100% raised to believe that-- I love my parents. I don't think they were totally wrong, but the point of life is you get a dream job that is in line with your values and your mission, and you work your butt off essentially in order to get there, and then you've made it.

I actually pursued that for a little while. Worked on political campaigns but then pandemic happened and I felt pretty empty because I'd done this whole work thing, but where were my friends? Where was my community? Where was my being able to actually go outside and enjoy beautiful weather? I've shifted a little bit, I'm a bartender now. It's given me a lot more time to enjoy things and reflect on what's going to come next.

Brian Lehrer: Did you not get a lot of meaning from working in politics, because that's something that you did presumably for community connection and trying to make the world a better place?

Ronan: I got a huge amount of value out of it. I also, by the way, met a lot of people who remained some of my closest friends in the process, but it does not feel like something that I could continue, certainly not for the rest of my life. Probably not even for that many more years because you work sometimes 90-100 hours a week, there's not a lot of time to live life outside of the work that you did. I'm glad I did it, but I think I'm done.

Brian Lehrer: Ronan, thank you very much. If you want to get in touch with Sam, she lives in Hicksville. I don't know. We can't. I don't think we can actually connect you to help start that commune upstate, but Nicholas in Granite Springs, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nicholas.

Nicholas: Hi. I just wanted to say I work as a private chef now in between New York and San Francisco. For years, I worked as a cook in super high-end restaurants where you basically work at a minimum an 80-hour week and don't get paid tremendous amount. The cost of living in New York and San Francisco where I was working is impossible to save up. I always had roommates.

Now I'm just at a point where I'm making enough money where I could save up money for a house or whatever, start a family. I just think that's completely unobtainable for people our age. I'll be perfectly honest, if I want to continue in my career as a chef, I think I'm actually just going to move abroad just because it's completely impossible at this point to-

Brian Lehrer: Was that your dream job? Was that what you thought would be the fulfilling center of your life being a private chef?

Nicholas: Oh, absolutely not. I just did it for the money. You probably get paid $50,000 more a year to work as a private chef than you do in a restaurant. My dream is to open up a restaurant, but it's just not possible to maintain a nice lifestyle working in a restaurant. It's possible but it's not a comfortable life, and also you get no vacation, none of that.

Brian Lehrer: It's a not good enough job in your case.

Nicholas: It's not.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that there's a generational difference in your attitude toward work compared to your parents or older people you know?

Nicholas: Yes, my parents did quite well for themselves. They're architects. They have a place in Westchester and were able to go to university and stuff like that. I think the difference is that people our age are not in a good place to be able to save money for that or in a good place to, even if you want to go to college these days, say you want to start college, the cost is just unobtainable for a lot of people and the cost of living is just unobtainable.

I think, at the end of the day, I feel like a little bit of a sucker for trying to think that I could buy a house and all of that. Whereas with my parents, I don't think they necessarily were in love with their careers the whole time, but I think at the end of the day, they could sleep better knowing that if they were reasonable and saved enough money just like everyone else, they could obtain the lifestyle that they have now.

Brian Lehrer: I hear you, Nicholas. Thank you. Thank you very much. In fact, there was an article, I think Wall Street Journal the other day showing that the number of high school graduates in this country going to college has actually dropped for the first time in a long time in the last few years. Having to do not just with the pandemic, but with the cost of college, and debt, and the kind of things Nicholas was just talking about, and more people going into things like apprenticeships and the trades, what they call the skill trades.

Maybe more people thinking about getting their life's fulfillment by being plumbers and things like that than things with a college degree, relative to a few years ago because of the kinds of things Nicholas was just talking about. Amy in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Amy.

Amy: Hi Brian, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good, so what's-

Amy: I was going to talk about the relationship-

Brian Lehrer: Yes, go ahead.

Amy: Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: You're good.

Amy: I wanted to talk about the relationship between stepping back from a high-powered work culture to engage more presently in parenting. The pandemic really put me in a space of having to do that. I lost my job in the beginning of Covid because I was working in schools in a consulting capacity, and the landscape of education changed drastically. It ended up being a blessing in disguise because I needed someone to take care of my kids anyway. When the pandemic slowed down and I was able to re-enter the workforce, I went back to work in a much smaller sense. I had the privilege of being able to do that, and I'm still in that space.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think there's a generational difference in this respect, between you and maybe your parent's generation, and when they had you?

Amy: Yes, I do think that there is a generational difference in the sense that my parent's generation, the women around me tended to be one or the other, either in the career space or not. I have found myself in a position of being able to straddle both worlds, be present for my kids, but also be engaged in my career post-Covid in a much smaller capacity. I'm working part-time at a much closer-to-home job.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and that kind of thing. Amy, I'm going to leave it there for time. I want to sneak one more person in here. Thank you very much. Andrew in Dix Hills, you're going to get the last word. We have 30 seconds for you. Hi there.

Andrew: Hey. I grew up in the theatre and the arts and told to follow my passion, but I think it's bad advice to teach kids that because there's so few jobs. You get underpaid by the labor market who take advantage of you if you're doing something you love. I think it's bad advice for kids.

Brian Lehrer: Generational difference?

Andrew: Yes, my parents would very much disagree. My father worked hard his whole life, my mother stayed at home, and he'd be very upset that I don't prioritize work above everything else.

Brian Lehrer: Andrew, thank you very much. Yes, some generational differences on the relationship to work emerged at least from a lot of those callers. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, callers. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay tuned for Allison.

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