Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. If you want to get New Yorkers arguing with each other, bring up the topic of outdoor dining, and outdoor dining structures, and how permanent or temporary they should be, and what the rules around them should be. After multiple extensions of the emergency COVID-era provisions for outdoor dining, New York City Council has finally passed a bill to make outdoor dining permanent but with limitations.

Here to take us through the new regulations is the prime sponsor of the bill, Council Member Marjorie Velázquez who represents District 13 in the Bronx. Council Member, welcome back to WNYC. Hi there.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Hi, good morning. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. Do you want to start with the basics? What's in the new legislation? What's different from the pandemic-era rules?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Sure. First of all, what was existing during the pandemic was an emergency order. What we're talking about is taking a moment to make it permanent for all. What we want to take a step back is think about what existed prior to the pandemic which was largely limited because of the fees, the location because of zoning requirements, and more importantly, accessibility.

What this bill was designed to do, it is designed to do, is making sure that we're reducing costs, we're reducing the red tape to get involved, and more importantly, giving this opportunity for all boroughs. It was so limited to Manhattan in the past, so now we have it here in the Bronx where families get to enjoy it. You know what? That's what happened during the pandemic. We were forced to take a good look within our communities and look at what is available. It forced us to stop and smell the roses, and it forced us to actually take a look at what is possible.

You know what? We were able to save a hundred thousand jobs. 12,000 restaurants participated so it showed one thing and one thing only; New Yorkers love outdoor dining, how it gets done. Sure, we can talk about it. Sure, it's a little complicated, but we know how to do tough things as New Yorkers. It's a beautiful thing that now we have this opportunity.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to go into the details more on what's going to enable restaurants, what's going to limit restaurants, and we can take your stories and reactions, especially if you've seen the new City Council rules for outdoor dining because they apply to you.

Restaurant owners, very welcome to call in. If you've had outdoor dining at your establishment, what is this going to mean for you? Is it going to enable you to continue as you were? Is it going to make it harder for you, as some restaurants are saying? Restaurant workers, call in too. Also, neighbors of restaurants who maybe have not liked that it has been there in the way that it has near your building or whatever. People with parking complaints, lack of accessibility of parking spaces because of this, or anything else.

Let's talk about the outdoor dining rules as we clarify them with New York City Council member Marjorie Velázquez, the prime sponsor of the new bill that has now passed. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also text your comment or question to that number or tweet @BrianLehrer.

What's your response to restaurant owners who I've read have said that this is going to cause them to take down their outdoor dining structures rather than enable them to provide it at least all or part of the year because there will be new higher fees than there were during the pandemic and requirements that they remove, store, and then rebuild the structures every year with the change of the seasons?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: I beg to differ. Basically, for us, our aim and our focus is to reduce the fees. Licensing fee now is a four-year license and that's $1,050. Then separately, the revocable consent fee is designed into four separate tiers and it's to meet the commercial rents for the area per square foot. What we're looking at, the fees that in the past were enormous and we were able to reduce it. Even to the most highest part of the city, it's still cheaper than what the fees were prior to the pandemic.

We took a good time to think it out and really work with the administration to make sure that we are being equitable because it's just not about Manhattan. It's about the Bronx. It's about Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island. Certainly, Outer Borough out of mind was something that was prior to the pandemic. Now we actually are more equitable. We are thinking about the Bronx. We are thinking about Brooklyn. We are thinking about Queens that have opportunities, and making sure that businesses also are able to participate without paying ridiculous fees.

Brian Lehrer: I'll get back to the Outer Boroughs question with you in a minute and why you think this is going to enable restaurants that never have had outdoor dining to have it now. Could you explain to our listeners what these new seasonal rules are going to be?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Certainly. We want to also emphasize outdoor dining will be year-round when we're talking about sidewalk cafe licenses. The change and where we see the biggest conflict if you will, is the roadway, and that will be eight months out of the year. What we have been doing, it is about having conversations with community, with businesses, and the industry. Sure, the industry would have loved to see a whole year on roadways.

However, there was a lot of input from community groups and community boards that really had concerns over not only sanitation but noise level and communicating to them what would be a great compromise. That's how we settled on the eight-month rule. It is about making sure that all sides are heard and that we are offering the best for all.

Brian Lehrer: Eight months on, four months off per year for using roadways in front of your restaurant. Which eight months?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: We're going to do from April through November. Basically, the winter months are the ones that we're not going to have.

Brian Lehrer: I guess the winter months are the months when fewer people are doing outdoor dining anyway because of the cold. If it's up in the warmer months, why make people take it down at all? If people are finding their ways to park their cars in April through November, what problem are you solving by making the restaurants take down the structures in the winter?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Well, it's the structures in general. We are not going to have those structures that we see outside. To your point, there are people who have loved them, and there are people who have hated them. It's an opportunity for us to standardize the model. During the rulemaking process which is set to begin after the Mayor signs the legislation, that's where we have the opportunity to be innovative, to design the concept of what it would look like. This permanent outdoor fixed structure that we have heard people call sheds and whatnot will not exist.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call on this point. David in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, David.

David: Hey, good morning. How are you? Are you able to hear me okay?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you.

David: Great. I'll just say that I'm not a fan of outdoor dining in the cold. I'd rather eat at home than dine outside. I'm not a fan of the dining in the streets at all. In regards to the time of year where those options aren't available in the winter months, historically that's when COVID has been rising the last few years. For diners who do prefer to dine in a restaurant outside at a time when there's more COVID, I think having the sheds up during the winter months is probably more useful than having them up in the warmer months. It'll help the restaurateurs and it'll help the diners who do want to dine out, that don't want to go outside.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting, David. Thank you very much. That's an argument for keeping the sheds up and the roadways in the winter because if that's when COVID tends to spike that's when there would be more people. I don't know if experience actually bears it out, but in theory, there would be a connection between the annual winter surge and more people wanting to avoid dining inside in a restaurant. What do you say, Council Member?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: I say thank you David for that. Precisely is why we still have the sidewalk cafe licenses to permit that full year-round. There is an opportunity to still have outdoor dining via the sidewalk instead of the roadway. The opportunity is there. It's the location.

Brian Lehrer: According to a New York Times article last week, maybe you saw it, Paris changed its rules in a similar way, and the number of restaurants and cafes participating in their program dropped by about two-thirds. Are you not concerned about that happening in New York?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Well, ours is way different than Paris because we're allowing for a more affordable-- Definitely going back to the statement where we do have an opportunity to have outdoor dining year round, it depends on the sidewalk versus the roadway. That's the key difference. More importantly, it's that we are cutting the red tape. It is that we're making it affordable for restaurants to participate.

During the rulemaking process, this is what we're asking for everyone. Once again, to the public that's listening, we need you. We need your ideas. We need your vision when we're creating and standardizing the models for the roadways and sidewalks to have that conversation and say, "This is what we would love to see in our communities." We're innovative and we will prove, and we'll be different than Paris because for me, I'm a New Yorker, so I'm going to say New Yorkers do it best.

Brian Lehrer: Now, let me let you go into some detail about why you say this is going to make it easier for restaurants, especially in the outer boroughs, which means every borough other than Manhattan- outer depends on where you're starting- to have outdoor dining at all because you were saying even at the height of the pandemic, a lot of places in the four boroughs were not able to open outdoor dining sheds or just tables or whatever. Why do you think that would've been the case when the demand would've been so high, and what would enable it now that would be different?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Just to clarify. Prior to the pandemic, it was very limited and it was due to the zoning restrictions that were in place, and when it was cost prohibitive because it required an architect and engineering renderings. Those were additional fees on top of the licensee and revocable consent fees.

Brian Lehrer: You're talking about prior to the pandemic? Sorry.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Prior to the pandemic, yes.

Brian Lehrer: I stand corrected in the way I framed the question.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: We want to make sure that folks understood that there were so many different transitions of what outdoor dining has become and we are re-imagining it together because COVID forced us to do things differently, but we're New Yorkers and we know how to do tough things. We're creative enough, and we showed up. We went and made sure that we saved 100,000 jobs. The 12,000 restaurants could participate in the past where it was literally only several thousand. That expansion itself shows the need and shows how great this program is, and we're excited to see how this goes forward.

Brian Lehrer: Can you put some numbers on that? If the red tape is being cut and the fees are being cut, you went over a little bit of that at the beginning, but what are we talking about in terms of fees that they have to pay the City or anything else?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Sure. The first one is the license fee, which it covers for four years, and that starts at $1,050. The other piece, the revocable consent fees, there are four separate tiers with the cheapest being around $5 per square foot, and the most expensive comes up to be around $25 per square foot. It's comparable to the commercial rates in the area because we wanted to make sure that we were being fair and equitable and making sure that everyone who wants to participate can be eligible.

Brian Lehrer: They would have to pay something at the same rate as the square foot rental, the--

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: No. It's comparable.

Brian Lehrer: To who?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Comparable to the area. Madison Avenue versus East Remont in my district; two different densities, two different type of economic stability. What we're doing is making sure that we are addressing people where they're at, and making sure that we're not overpricing a restaurant out of this program, that we are actually meeting people where they're at. Listening to restaurants, that's one of the things that we heard that it was so cost prohibitive. The emergency order showed that if given an opportunity, would a person participate in the outer boroughs? The answer is yes.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe I'm just being dense, but I'm not getting who they pay that comparable square footage rent to because the landlord doesn't own the street.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Oh, to the City.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, it's to the City. It's like you're the landlord over the streets.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Correct. Our streets do have value and we need to recognize that. We want to make sure that it is fair and that it is equitable.

Brian Lehrer: Mary in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mary.

Mary: Hi. Good morning. Thanks for taking my call. I had a question. I live in the East Village. Although I see lots of good things about the outdoor dining, one of the worst things about it is every morning when I walk out, the streets can't be cleaned between these outdoor dining. There's piles and piles of garbage and has led to a major rat problem in the East Village. I'm wondering who's responsible to clean that up because the street cleaners cannot get between the two sheds when there's two that are near each other.

Brian Lehrer: Council member?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: That would be part of the responsibility, not only of the restaurant but hey, if you see something, say something because DOT has been working within the communities to make sure that we are working with restaurants to address those concerns, especially when we're looking at also abandoned sheds.

You didn't mention this, Mary, but that's also a concern that a lot of people had. What we did last year for folks to feel more comfortable with DOT being the agency lead on this is, "Hey, if you see something that is unsafe or abandoned, let us know so we could take it down." We've been doing that.

I ask of you 311 it, and please reach out to your local council member. They will follow up because it is a way that, to your point, we don't want to see that. That's why the permanent sheds will not exist because we want to allow for more clearance and also sanitation purposes.

Brian Lehrer: People who own cars have to move their cars to the other side of the street once a week or however often it is in a given neighborhood, alternate side of the street parking, that New York City institution. Is there something in effect for outdoor dining structures that could enable the sanitation trucks to come by effectively, or is that more an issue for the sidewalks and it's not really the equivalent of alternate side?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: No, no, no. We do have that conversation. That's why when we're going back to the design conversation, that's what we want. We want people to understand that the standardized models that we're coming up with in the roadway is to make sure that we allow for it to be clean and sanitary for all and allow for the agencies to perform their tasks.

Brian Lehrer: A lot of that is on the sidewalks as opposed to on the streets, the sanitation problems from the outdoor dining that help attract rats. How does the City enforce that if there are rules?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Well, let's take it back to the rat situation and what led to it. One, there was a cut to sanitation during the pandemic. We all remember that, that agencies had suffered some cuts and it really did affect how we saw New York City. When we stepped up, and certainly the Adams administration has taken this so seriously that we literally have a rat czar, and my colleagues in the council have so much legislation to address this rat issue. We're taking it seriously.

We want to make sure folks understand separate and apart from the Outdoor Dining Bill, that there is a real effort within the council and within the administration to handle not only rats but sanitation because we want to see a clean New York City and we're working really hard for that.

Separately, when we're talking about what we need folks to come out and do, especially during the rulemaking process, this is it. If your concern is that you need this removable structure and you prefer this one over that one, let us know. We are open to this.

Ultimately, the designs that we want want to enable, not only to remove it, but also have clearance, be innovative, make sure that it's clean, and make sure that the community feels safe with it, and that we're working with the restaurant industry and the community, that it's affordable for the restaurant industry, as well as something that the community is proud to have within their district.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nancy.

Nancy: Good morning. I was wondering if you could speak to the rights of pedestrians, but particularly disabled persons with the concerns for barrier-free and safe sidewalks.

Brian Lehrer: Council member, [crosstalk] Have you found that to be a problem? We have a few people calling in with a similar question that the outdoor dining structures on the sidewalks, which are going to be allowed to stay permanently have, in some cases, been making it too difficult for pedestrians to pass. The listener is bringing up, in particular, the visually impaired.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, we've been working with advocates. Yes, we are looking at the streets scape. Yes, this is something that we are discussing during rulemaking process to make sure that we do have accessibility on the streets. Clearance and accessibility are very important. I often talk about my own journey which led me into City Council where I was limited in mobility. I was using crutches at one point, I was using a cane at another point, and so having the space to do that and walking in the street is also something that I think of when I walk down the street. Are we allowing folks to have that space?

Yes, these are conversations we had and we'll continue to have, especially as we're designing how much space the restaurants are able to take, whether on sidewalk or on the roadway because this is a very important aspect to not only the council, but certainly to the administration as well.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, thank you for your call. A few more minutes with New York City Council Member Marjorie Velázquez of the Bronx, the lead sponsor of the bill that has now passed, City Council that sets new rules for outdoor dining structures in the city.

It's interesting, I don't know what you hear from your constituents. I always tell the listeners that we consider call-ins to this show thoroughly unscientific because who tends to call a talk show? It's people who feel the most strongly about something which might not be representative of the population as a whole, but judging from our board, everybody hates outdoor dining, [chuckles] for one reason or another, or another or another, but I don't really think it's true. What's your sense of your own constituents or the citywide vibe?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: They love it. We've seen folks enjoying and being creative on their approach on how they've created these different structures. Certainly, we've seen restaurants being saved during their roughest points. Especially when we're looking at how folks now, especially during the summer, get to enjoy the outdoors with a glass of rosé at your favorite bar or restaurant, that is what we need. Meeting up with friends, meeting up with family, that was the concept. What was the goal for outdoor dining? It's literally just being in community, being with friends in a safe space.

Our restaurants stepped up, they invested in communities. They made sure that they were there for us. I think of them often like another set of frontline workers. As New Yorkers, we stepped up and made sure that we are going outdoors. We are enjoying it. I hear the criticisms, but at the end of the day, we all get the opportunity, and now all of New York City gets to have this opportunity. It's not just limited to Manhattan, and that's the beauty of this.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, the outdoor dining, the restaurants that have outdoor dining, they tend to be packed so much. I was just outdoor dining with some folks yesterday afternoon. By the time the real dinner rolled around at six o'clock, it was absolutely jammed at that particular place. I think that's representative of my experience. A lot of people want it, even though a lot of people complain about it.

I'm going to take one more call, and this is, I think, our most vociferous anti-outdoor dining structure in the street caller, Mark in Manhattan. You're on WNYC with Council Member Velazquez. Hi. Mark, are you there? Mark? Once.

Mark: Yes. I'm here.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Mark: Yes, I'm here. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Mark: I think that this is a taking away of public property that belongs to the people, and the City is becoming a landlord by taking away my property and everybody else's property and giving it to others to generate income for the City and to generate income for the rest tours.

During the pandemic, that was absolutely fine. It was an emergency, but now to take away public space in order to benefit a very small minority is detrimental and I believe maybe even unconstitutional.

Brian Lehrer: What do you want it used for that you see as more of a public purpose?

Mark: Well, I don't mind, as they did in certain places, and they're talking about 42nd Street making it just everything for pedestrian as opposed to taking away which was for parking for people who have disabilities to-- This now does bring in more rats. This does allow for people with disabilities to have major issues as they try to navigate.

It does take away parking, plus you have this bizarre idea that you have nothing in the winter, and then it's semi-permanent in the summer and spring and fall, and you're going to have something in the street that is going to connect these things. Otherwise, the wind is going to pull it away. You are also creating a disturbing inequality because a small restaurant could double or triple its capacity while someone who's got a bigger restaurant doesn't get as much.

Brian Lehrer: Mark. Thank you very much. He mentioned parking twice. I have a text here from a listener that's kind of the opposite, which more takes the position that we're subsidizing drivers and trucks by letting the public streets be used for those private purposes. Listener writes, "I just turned on and realized this about restaurants. Regarding the value of the streets, there's Amazon Pay the City when every day they block a lane all day with a big box truck and operate a mobile mini distribution center?"

I have other folks who could go on about, "Hey, if we're charging rent, if the City is charging rent to restaurants to keep structures out there for people to eat at, why shouldn't the City charge rent for parking? People own private cars in those same spaces." We have about a minute left in the segment, council member.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez: I want to thank Mark for his comments. To the point, we don't have the permanent outdoor structures in this bill. We heard him. We heard folks like him in the concern from the community. When we're talking about rat mitigation, we have right now containerization that we've had with restaurants.

We have also, going back to my point of the rat czar, and all the legislation that my colleagues have passed to that point. When we're talking about street clearance and making sure that we are providing for folks, yes, we're looking at that angle. Yes, we are working with advocates. Yes, this is why this bill had taken over a year and a half because we are working with everyone. Everyone has had a seat at the table.

More importantly yes, the streets is ours, our community. As that part, then to rent out that space, if you're a car, you pay a meter. If you are a restaurant and you're going to use what potentially could have been a parking space, now you're paying that revocable consent fee.

Brian Lehrer: It's not this November. It's November of next year when the structures in the streets will first have to come down. Correct?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez:  It's a transition period that we're allowing folks to participate in. More importantly, we want to get what the standardized model is first and downright as we're talking about that transition because we want to make sure, once again, that it is affordable and that we're recognizing the great efforts that so many of our great restaurants have done within their community.

Brian Lehrer: That it's affordable to take them down and put them up, and that it's not going to cause restaurants to just abandon outdoor dining in the streets as a result. Have you spoken to anyone who's planning to fill the role of providing structures, storage that I think you've spoken about in the past? Is any company actually going to do that, that's going to make it more affordable for restaurants because it's a complaint I've heard from the restaurants?

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez:  I don't want to skip the process. When we're talking about process, we don't have the models yet. We don't have the standardized concepts yet. What we're focusing on, and we want to really communicate, and I double triple down on this, is we want public participation. We want to hear from architects, engineers, from Alfresco aficionados. We want to hear what works, what doesn't. Then we will worry about the other stuff later.

Let's see what we can come up together, and then we can discuss what, if any, storage will take place, what if other situations within the restaurant have to deal with, takes place. We want to make sure that when we're doing anything that they are no unintended consequences that we're really working with community and the industry.

It's tough conversations, but guess what? I've had these conversations for over a year and a half, I've made it out great, and we've got the bill, we've got it passed, and it shows that New Yorkers not only love outdoor dinings, but we know how to stick together and get through difficult conversations and come with a comp compromise.

Brian Lehrer: All right. New rules coming for outdoor dining in New York City Council Member Marjorie Velazquez of the Bronx, lead sponsor of the bill that has now passed. Thank you so much.

Council Member Marjorie Velázquez:  Thank you.

 

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