Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We begin today with our Friday ask the mayor segment. No, not quite. It's a Friday ask the former mayor segment. My questions and yours for Bill de Blasio. His first appearance here since leaving office. A little like old times as he did come on every Friday for most of his mayoralty as many of you remember.

The reason we invited him back for today is that he has an article in The Atlantic on mistakes he believes he made as mayor that he wants Joe Biden to avoid as president, especially to help Democrats retain their congressional majorities in the midterm election. We'll talk something about New York City in the post-de Blasio era as well, but mostly national politics here. Good morning, Mr. Mayor. Feels like old times. Welcome back to WNYC.

Mayor de Blasio: I feel young again, Brian. It's good to be with you. I think back fondly to our dialogue over many years, so thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: We human beings are funny creatures. We can get nostalgic for something we consider the good old days when it wasn't even five months ago. Why are we, funny creatures?

Mayor de Blasio: We're very funny creatures although I'll tell you, it feels really, really different just humanly. It is something that I've been reflecting on a lot. They used to call, I think it was back during the '60s, someone coined the phrase that Mayor of New York City is the second toughest job in America. When you're in the middle of it, it is just a blur how intense it is. How fast, how never-ending, and to actually get back to life, to family, friends, normalcy, it feels like a long time ago on one level. I feel empathy for my successor because it's nonstop in a way that I don't think any other experience I've ever had in my life even comes close.

Brian Lehrer: We'll come back around as we go to some observations you may have about what your successor Eric Adams is dealing with, but I do want to get to the premise of your article, which is more nationally angled. Something that maybe you wouldn't have wanted to say out loud when you were coming on here on Fridays when you were in office. You wrote, "When it comes to being unpopular I'm unfortunately somewhat of an expert." Why did you write those words?

Mayor de Blasio: Brian, I had time to think and the piece-- I did an op-ed for The Atlantic that really was motivated by feeling an empathy for what Joe Biden has been going through. A sense that I saw things that could be changed, mistakes that could be fixed that I thought would really help him and help the Democratic Party. I felt that deeply. I saw this pattern. I didn't want to say, "Hey, Joe Biden. Fix your problems." I wanted to say I'm going to acknowledge my own problems in a job that pales in comparison to the presidency, but does at least have some parallels to the intensity of the presidency and just say, "I realized I got lost in the weeds."

One of the phrases I put in the op-ed really typifies it to me. I mistook policy for popularity. I think Joe Biden a lot of the times is working on a wonderful policy. I think he's done extraordinary things in building an international coalition for Ukraine, for example, but the people don't see that work. It's behind the scenes. The people are dealing with kitchen table issues, really painful issues now with COVID and inflation and so much fear.

Joe Biden needs to speak to them and come back to them and speak to them as it were at their kitchen table. In some ways, as FDR did famously with the fireside chats, and focus much more on helping people understand where he's taking us. I don't think I did that well enough, in the last years in particular, as mayor. That's why I wanted to write the piece to say, "I fell into this trap. I don't think you have to Mr. President. I think there's still time to turn that around."

Brian Lehrer: In the case of yourself, you seem to say that you did give the city a clear sense of where you were taking them in your first term, less so in your second term. In the case of Biden, do you think he gave the country a clearer sense of where he's taking us early on but has stopped doing so?

Mayor de Blasio: Let's put it into three phases. The election was such a extraordinary contrast, Biden and Trump, that I don't even think it was so much about vision. It was about the contrast of two very different philosophies and human beings. The early months of the administration dominated by fighting back COVID, I think that's when there was a tremendous sense of direction because there were immediate missions to be accomplished.

I think he did an outstanding job on stimulus, on vaccination, obviously, later on, infrastructure. I think the third phase has been when the energy and momentum of that initial surge was over. We confronted a new set of problems, obviously, particularly inflation, but a lot of other uncertainty beyond inflation. I think it was time for the President to double down on a broader vision of where America could go and where America would go eventually and how his approaches would take us there.

I think what happened conversely, and it's a variation of what happened to me, is he got pulled into the Washington day-to-day battles, obvious disappointments with Build Back Better, et cetera. The conversation got insular, it got internal, it was much less about relating back to what people were going through and it got defensive. This is another mistake I feel I made often when I felt I was doing meaningful work and I was getting a lot of criticism, rather than saying, "Okay. Some of that must be, I'm not articulating my work well enough or maybe I'm not focusing on the right priorities."

I would get very defensive. I think it's human and natural, but I don't forgive it in myself. I think Biden falls into that defensive speech quite easily. In the end, here's the other thing I say in The Atlantic piece, he's actually a really good communicator. In other words, it doesn't have to be this way because Joe Biden is a very accessible human being. He is a word I don't know if it's pure English, but it's used a lot, relatable.

He's relatable across the spectrum. We've talked about all the different demographic dynamics happening in American politics, but a voter who went from, for example, voting for Barack Obama to later on voting for Donald Trump, that's still a voter that Joe Biden can speak to. He obviously can speak profoundly to the base of the Democratic Party. He can speak to progressives. His vision has been very progressive in many ways. I love his communication ability, but I want him to communicate a simpler, clearer vision than I've heard from him.

Brian Lehrer: Give it a shot, if you would. Where is Biden taking us? Do you have some of the words for what he should be repeating consistently because you say, "Get a message out there and repeat it consistently to make people feel he's connected to them?"

Mayor de Blasio: I don't pretend to have the exact words, but I'll give you examples. I think one of the areas where we can really as Democrats make a huge difference in people's lives is on healthcare and healthcare costs, which goes to two issues that are absolutely at the core of what people are going through right now. Everything, COVID and beyond healthcare concerns, so deep in the American psyche, in American life right now and then, of course, inflation.

Democrats right now can pass legislation to lower prescription drug costs and to lower the cost of insulin. The votes are there. I'm not saying it's easy to negotiate with Joe Manchin, but even Joe Manchin has said there's someplace he wants to go. I think Joe Biden saying, "I'm going to lower your health care costs. I'm going to make it easier for you to get the healthcare you need." Simple as that.

I think him saying on another very powerful issue-- obviously, so many of us are absolutely mortified by the Supreme Court draft in the Roe v. Wade case. That next morning, Joe Biden was on the tarmac before leaving to another part of the country, and reporters gone up to speak to him. What I wanted Joe Biden to do was be clear. He gave a dissertation on the Supreme Court, on his efforts to stop Robert Bork decades ago, all sorts of things.

He never said this one simple sentence, the sentence I think millions of Americans, particularly millions of American women needed to hear, which is, "I will fight like hell to protect a woman's right to choose." I think that's what he needed to say. I think that's what he needs to repeat every chance he gets. To some extent, I'm saying direction. Sharp, clear direction. He obviously has a parenthetical, rambly way of speaking. He's had that for decades, by the way, even when he was a much younger man.

I think at this moment with a such confusion and instability and fear. My argument in The Atlantic piece is Joe Biden still has the number one bully pulpit on Earth. He's a good communicator, and he's a respected, decent human being. Turn that into those simple declarative messages, that he can really back up with some action not perfect. He won't be able to solve every problem but show people where he will take us.

I actually think even in this very pained, confusing moment in history, that single powerful voice still is the one that moves many, many people, including many people who have not made up their minds. Just one last point on this, Brian, at the end of the piece, I say, people want to have some hope again. They want to believe we can come out of all this. I said, let the voice of hope be the warm, positive voice of Joe Biden because he is an optimistic person, he is a warm person. Let him talk about that, rather than the minutia of government that seems to pervade his every pronouncement.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, you recognize the voice if you're just tuning in former Mayor Bill de Blasio, who does have a piece in The Atlantic, offering Joe Biden advice based on what the former mayor says were his own failures of communication in office that he thinks Biden is falling into the patterns of. Listeners, if you're a Democrat concerned with holding congress this year does Mayor de Blasio have the right idea about what Biden and the Washington leaders of the party are doing wrong or anything else you didn't get to ask Bill de Blasio during his six years of coming on the show every week. 212-433-WNYC.

Mayor de Blasio: That a lot of subject matter, Brian. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: That's right. Please, somebody out there has been left on hold 400 times, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. This has been a problem for Democrats for a long time, hasn't it? I'm going to play a clip from 15 years ago, that may or may not surprise you. Chuck Schumer came on the show for a book he wrote back in 2007 and you know what the title was?

It was Positively American: Winning Back the Middle-class Majority, One Family At a Time. Winning back the middle class is something he felt the Democrats had lost, even way back then. One of the things he talked about from that book was that the Republicans were better at boiling down their policies, to values-based slogans that you can say in eight words. Listen to this 30-second clip of Chuck Schumer here in 2007.

Chuck Schumer: I say in 2004, Bush won with eight words, war in Iraq, cut taxes, no gay marriage. Now, each of those is a specific issue that, Bush staked his political reputation on tied to a deep value. War in Iraq, strong security, cut taxes, shrink government, no gay marriage, family values. I asked the question, what are our eight words? When you think about it, we're not close to it yet. This book is an attempt to get to our eight words because in 2008, we need them. We're not going to have to just run on an anti-Bush platform.

Brian Lehrer: Chuck Schumer here 15 years ago. That is so eerily reminiscent of this moment for me, you don't have Trump, the party doesn't have Trump to run against in 2022. Why is this a perennial problem for the Democratic Party?

Mayor de Blasio: Look, I agree I think Chuck Schumer's summary is powerful. I would also remind all of us the 2004 Election was winnable. I think we were hindered, in part, with all due respect to John Kerry by some of his communication problems. Joe Biden doesn't have that problem. I want to note this, I'll answer your question. I really want to know that we have a leader who can connect with middle-class and working-class Americans more than we often have had and that counts for a lot.

I just wanted to do it. Look, I think right now I don't know if it's eight words, but I'll tell you the right this minute. The rights of American women are being stolen before their very eyes. I think fighting for the rights of women, fighting for women's healthcare. Right there. You talk about the eight words or three words or whatever the hell right there is going to be one of the definitional elements of the 2022 midterm election, and that is a voting issue. That is an emotional personal issue.

Lower health care costs, lower prescription drug costs. Here's the other one Brian, you want something that polls through the roof and not just among Democrats even among independents, Republicans tax the corporations and the wealthy. Joe Biden actually has a plan, which even Manchin has been positive towards elements for higher taxes on corporations and billionaires, a place Republicans never can go. It is a democratic problem but it's not for lack of subject matter.

In The Atlantic piece, I talk about 2018. In 2018, Democrats running for Congress with shocking consistency and unity. Talked about health care. Protecting affordable health care, because the Republican Party had been attacking Obamacare, and Medicaid expansion. Democrats everywhere said we're going to protect your health care. It was extraordinarily powerful and clear, and it was believable because no one thought Republicans won't protect their health care, and everyone believes Democrats had grown down on the topic of healthcare.

Chuck Schumer's formulation, I think is right. What pains me, Brian is we never lacked contrast with the Republicans, especially in the age of Trump, and we never lacked subject matter. We lack simplicity and clarity. It is a fixable problem. It's a fixable problem, and it's particularly fixable with a president who can communicate with empathy.

Brian Lehrer: We did a call in after that Schumer segment for Democrats, what are the eight words that they would have run on back then that was 2007 before they knew Barack Obama was going to be the candidate in 2008 or anything? Maybe we should do it again, after this segment with you. Or during this segment with your listeners, what are the eight words? In Chuck Schumer's terminology from 15 years ago that the Democrats should be running on or any other response you have to what Bill de Blasio is saying here. Before we go to our first caller, I'll just say one thing about health care.

Democrats don't bring it up very much but they've won on Obamacare. Remember, when the big issue, one of the biggest issues for the Republicans was repeal and replace. Then when Trump was president, they actually tried to do it. John McCain, cast that tie-breaking vote when he was dying in the middle of the night and saved Obamacare? They don't talk about repealing Obamacare anymore, because it's gotten established as a popular thing, and even more so in the pandemic.

The Democrats won on that. We don't hear about it very much. When you bring up prescription drug prices, obviously, that's taking a backseat now to other inflation, to Ukraine, to other things that are going on, crime. Is there something Biden could do by executive order that would lower prescription drug prices?

Mayor de Blasio: I want to just challenge one piece there, Brian, with real respect. I think one of the things I learned along the way in political life is, if you can't do everything, do something. I do think on the issues you just laid out on prescription drug prices. I don't know enough about the executive order side of it. I do know, there's still a vote that could be one, from everything we've heard from the House and the Senate. Even from the very interesting reality of Joe Manchin, this is still a winnable issue [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: In Congress, so they can count it as a win when as they run into midterms.

Mayor de Blasio: Correct. Maybe if, there had been a less expansive approach to Build Back Better could have been done already. Who knows? That's Monday morning quarterback. What we can say is that really does appear to still be a winnable issue. It's a place where Republicans will not go because they will always be on the side of the pharmaceutical companies, not everyday Americans. Then when the other issues you raised on Ukraine, I think, which is a huge issue but it's not so much a kitchen table issue.

Joe Biden has a whole lot to show there because he really has led the world and the polling in the last few days is showing more and more people connecting with that. I just wrote up a piece op-ed in Newsweek on this point that I think people are starting to see our reality as Americans differently. Because we're actually leading in a productive way helping embattled people. On inflation, I think we all know that's going to be a tough one, it's a big supply chain. It's COVID. It's lots of things contributing to it.

I think then show people a bigger vision even if it's not going to be supply-- assuming not going to be resolved this month. Put forward a simple plan of how we're going to overcome it over time. I found that people really pay attention if you present them an honest assessment. If you say, "I'm not going to be able to solve this, this month, but we can do a lot better in the course of this year, we can do a lot better next year." He's done some of the right things already in terms of trying to reign in gas prices. It's really, to me, it's about just incessantly talking about what people care about and making sure they know you care too.

I think sometimes my assessment of the Biden approach and message is, again, it goes right to policy. It goes right to the mechanics of government, when I think what people want to hear is I got you, I understand how much you're hurting. This is what I'm going to do right now, and this is what I'm going to do that's going to solve some of the bigger problems. To his credit, what he's done on COVID, what he's done on infrastructure, what he's done on Ukraine, he actually has a foundation to work from, which should not be underestimated. That's a lot of what people will see when they judge the Democratic Party

Brian Lehrer: Pier in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with former Mayor Bill de Blasio. Hello, Pier.

Pier: Hi, thank you for letting me share my opinion. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Sure. What you got for us?

Pier: I just wanted to say, I actually completely agree that I think Democrats are getting stuck in minutiae. I think the one thing that was really great during COVID that former Mayor de Blasio said was that people were mobilized, and now that we're getting back to normal. Ironically, when everyone was home and locked down and individually in their apartments, we were all mobilized, and now when we're getting back to normal, everyone's too busy to be mobilized.

I think people are feeling overwhelmed. I think it's true, we need to have some very basic messaging. People are still really terrified that they're losing their rights. I think the last couple of weeks have really brought that home. I had a diverse group of 12-year old middle schoolers from District 15, by the way. They were explaining. They were telling me yesterday during the protest that they were afraid that if this rate erodes, everything else is going to follow.

I think the parents feel that way too. I think if we can talk about Republicans aren't the only ones to own the argument of saving freedom, saving rights, and being patriotic. I think we need to talk about that a little and invest in that a little. I also agree with the prescription drugs. When we're, as parents having to get EpiPens that are $400 and they're required. Things like that are on your mind, whether or not you realize it.

I think a lot of folks are really feeling it in every generation. I think this is something that's in every party. These are all really good points to focus on, and I think it's really a good time for us to really delve into it right now while things are slowing down. I think taking advantage of the summer rather than thinking people are sleepy during it is actually going to help us

Brian Lehrer: Mayor de Blasio?

Mayor de Blasio: That's a wonderful analysis here. I really appreciate it. I think this point you made about people being mobilized, that's a really interesting word of choice. I think the president has a chance to create a vision of mobilizing people for where America needs to go. That means protecting rights, which I agree with you is profoundly patriotic and the essence of the American experience is protecting people's rights, and they are being stolen at this moment.

I also think it's mobilizing to put the country back together post-COVID. I think it's mobilizing against climate change. I think there is a chance for Biden still to pick up. He obviously emulates FDR. He was literally born and raised in the aftermath of the new deal, and it's in his bloodstream, you can tell. He has a chance here to say, this is what America could become. I mentioned this other piece in Newsweek on Ukraine because his leadership on Ukraine is actually the closest thing I have seen in decades to America in a good way. In a noble democratic, the most democratic way, leading the world and building an extraordinary coalition.

I think there is in that sense of pride that it could regenerate that idea of how about we create a country that we all start to feel much better about. Joe Biden's actually well positioned to offer that vision. What I see him doing, and I looked over the last few weeks and he did one event on internet affordability. Then he did another event on the javelin missiles for Ukraine, and he did another event on competition with China, and none of it fit together. There was no sense of where is this taking us.

If he can shift in my opinion, to that bigger vision of mobilizing us as a people for a common cause, he actually could tap into something.

Brian Lehrer: We'll take a break. We'll continue with former Mayor Bill de Blasio. I'm going to read you a couple of tweets when we come back. Kim on Twitter writes that-- Kim has the eight words for the Democratic Party. I'll read that. Another Twitter user says we're not buying it anymore, Democrats aren't delivering on promises. I'll tell you why he says that. We'll take some more phone calls and we will talk about city stuff with Mayor de Blasio too. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with former Mayor Bill de Blasio. His first appearance here since leaving office on the occasion of his Atlantic magazine article, and we'll talk about his Newsweek article on Ukraine a little bit too. Interesting how the Democrats and Republicans, at least some wings of the party have flipped on who doesn't want to get involved in foreign wars. The main reason we invited him back on for today is his article in The Atlantic on mistakes he believes he made as mayor that he wants Joe Biden to avoid his president. Though which he says Biden is now making to help Democrats retain their congressional majorities in the midterm elections.

A couple of tweets coming in. Listener Kim, eight words from Twitter, the eight words the Democratic Party should run on since the Republicans are good at running on eight-word slogans. Tax billionaires, healthcare for all, save the planet. Here's another tweet. Brian, on Twitter, writes we're not buying it anymore. Democrats aren't delivering on promises. For example, supporting unions, but not funding the NLRB or fully staffing NLRB offices.

Biden meeting with Smalls, the Amazon union organizer, but giving Amazon a multi-billion dollar contract. Mayor de Blasio, I think that's emblematic of a certain progressive wing of the democratic party that is alienated and may not help with a massive turnout in November.

Mayor de Blasio: I think it's true that there are alienated progressives. I think the democratic party has really missed the boat over the last five, 10 years, particularly from occupying Wall Street on, I think it was so clear that there was a huge progressive impulse growing in this country and the Democratic Party has not fully met it. That is a true statement. To that specific example, I would just challenge that again, whatever one disagrees with, let's give the Democratic Party credit for the core achievements of the last year-plus.

A very strong coherent effort to vaccinate the country and to create a stimulus, to bring back the economy, which has worked very, very well, despite whatever challenges the economy is still overwhelmingly back. The fact that there's an infrastructure bill, which is something people talked about for decades has actually happened. The fact that we are leading the world in defending a country being invaded by an imperialist power. These are big strong things.

I would say, look, can Democrats do more to help organize labor at 100%, and we should. I think this is not lack of achievement. I think we are not speaking to working people and we're not making clear that we're on their side. Now, this is something, I was a Bernie Sanders supporter in 2020, this is something Bernie Sanders does so well, but I think Joe Biden could do it well. I think the rest of the Democrats could do it well, it's not just about-- of course, substance matters here, but we're just not even saying the simple thing I used to talk about working people first, that message needs to pervade everything we do.

Brian Lehrer: Brian in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Brian.

Brian: Hey, Brian. Thank you so much for having me on. Love your show. It's an honor to be speaking with the former mayor. I first want to just begin by thanking both of you for having former Mayor de Blasio on your show every Friday. That meant a lot to me. I didn't know former Mayor de Blasio. I wasn't really familiar with him when he was elected. Hearing him on the show, having real New Yorkers call in talking about real-life problems. Having the Mayor be a human being, and addressing those issues, sure it was one at a time, but it made a difference in me getting to know this person and him being a presence in my life.

I want Biden to hire a great social media team. He needs to be a presence in the everyday person's life. It seems like he only emerges at these events that former Mayor de Blasio just described. He disappears. Where is Kamala Harris? I know that they're doing great work. I believe in their work, but it's old-school politics that they're playing. The cultural and media and public landscape has changed.

They need to harness the power of social media. Look, Trump did it, I think in a very divisive, violent way. I think that if Biden is a beacon of hope, which I believe he has the potential to be, he needs to hire some social media people and really embrace the power of social media to be a hopeful, positive force. I just would love to talk about that and hear your thoughts.

Mayor de Blasio: Wow. To Brian Lehrer, you've got some really good feedback from the audience today. To Brian calling in, I love what you said about this point about being a presence in our lives. I'm glad that when I was on this show, I could be that and I wish I had done a lot more. Again, I'm in a period of reflection and recognizing things I could have done so much better. I will tell you-- You just said something very, very important. Joe Biden, I don't blame him. He's a creature of Washington. He was in the Senate when he was 29 years old for God's sakes.

These set-piece press conferences I think are really bad for him. When he's out with everyday Americans, he does an outstanding job. Everyone knows legendarily when he's out amongst the people, his warmth comes out as connection. That's hard to do when you're president as opposed to being a candidate, but you can do more of it. I think, yes, they could do a lot more on social media. I would also say, just get away from the formal stodgy press conferences and the addresses to the nation and be out in the communities of this country, empathizing with people and presenting them a vision because he is thoroughly believable.

This is a true compliment to Joe Biden. There's no lack of integrity and clarity about who he is and what he believes. It's almost like the form-- You know the famous Marshall McLuhan, "The medium is the message?" I think the form of his communication is taking away his heart and soul. What Brian said calling in that we need a presence in our life. If we needed a president to be an empathy on us and to give us hope, if we've ever needed it, we needed it in the depression and World War II.

Franklin Roosevelt did it nearly perfectly. We needed even more now than we needed then because the level of confusion and the sense of things being adrift is like we've never had before. It's amazing what one clear voice can do to cut through that.

Brian Lehrer: Brian, thank you for your call. Let me ask you a question about your article in Newsweek, which was about something very different than we've been talking about, about war. I think this one is also very interesting and something I've been talking a little bit about here too, the fact that the war in Ukraine stands in contrast to pretty much every war the US has fought since World War II, the good war as the title of your piece has it. I guess my maybe weird question is where is the peace camp?

You were part of the peace camp in the 1980s when you were active in US hands-off Central America. Now, it's weirdly Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene of all people, who say the $40 billion were given to Ukraine to fund the war will actually make things worse. More war, more death, while it could be getting used to ease the baby formula shortage in this country. There's an example that she gives. Does that sound like something progressives would've said about Vietnam or The Contras or Iraq invading Kuwait once upon a time?

Mayor de Blasio: It's a great question. Let me say it clearly, I wrote the piece in Newsweek and I started talking about my dad who lost half of one leg in the battle of Okinawa, World War II. The reason I started with that is to say, in my family, we knew a lot about the cost of war and how it stuck with our family for decades, but we never questioned that war. I don't mean that like we were blind.

No, I think we had our eyes very wide open because of the cost our family paid and my dad paid, but he believed to his dying day he had done the right thing to participate. We believed he had done a good and noble thing because it was a battle against Nazism and fascism, et cetera. As you said, the wars since that America's been in, have too often been imperialistic wars or wars without justification, or we were lied to by our own government.

Now, we have something very different. This is almost the flip. The imperialists are the Russians obviously. They invaded a peaceful democratic country. In a world where democracy is under threat in a way that's very reminiscent of the 1930s. Here is a thoroughgoing democratic country, Ukraine, and watching people killed who are just trying to lead their lives in a way that we can very personally relate to. I actually think from a progressive perspective, it's right to defend democratic Ukraine.

In my family, there is a story. I heard it from my sister that my dad wanted to go volunteer for the Spanish Civil War and tried to go off as a college student to fight in Spain, against Francisco Franco and the fascists. His family went to the Stamford Connecticut train station and pulled him off the platform basically. They wouldn't let him go. I say that because that was actually the pivot point of history.

The Spanish Civil War was the moment where fascism and Nazism could have been stopped and the West looked the other way. This time, the democratic nations are not looking the other way. I think what's happening now really re-juggles even for all of us who are progressives, it re-juggles our understanding of things, but I also think it's going to affect the American psyche.

This is the thesis of my Newsweek op-ed that we're actually leading again and we're leading for a noble cause and the world is listening to us and we have something to be proud of. That is part of our historic identity, whether it was always-- The whole truth or not, a lot of the American identity was the leader of the world. It doesn't have to be an imperialistic version. It could be a more noble version.

It could be a defensive, real democracy. I do think there's a possibility this is going to affect our deeper psyche as well as our politics. If people continue to see our country doing something that actually is across party lines regarded as noble and honorable.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. We have a few minutes left. Let me get you a quick take on a few city things. I'm sure you don't want a grandstand over Mayor Adams, especially this early on, but on a couple of specifics. One, do you think he's reversing the progress you made on criminal justice reform with some of his law enforcement policies?

Mayor de Blasio: Look, first of all, I have a lot of respect for Mayor Adams and I've talked to him a lot about a wide range of issues. I think everyone needs to recognize that the first months of being mayor are so challenging. It's such a new reality. I think if you listen to his history and his vision, he very much believes in reform. Obviously, there's individual issues we could agree or disagree on, but I think people need to give this some time to play out.

We're dealing with a very particular COVID-fueled crime crisis. It will be for a period of time, but it's, Lord knows, not going to be forever. A guy who spent his whole life fighting for police reform, I think that counts for a lot.

Brian Lehrer: He did reverse a specific policy that you had announced later in your second term on ending gifted and talented programs in the lower grades. Are you unhappy about that?

Mayor de Blasio: Look, I, first of all, really, really respect the fact that we have no accountability for education and we need it going forward. That's the only way our school system can continue to progress. I think there should be a broader reevaluation of gifted and talented. The plan we put forward. Again, I'm going to say this in the spirit of self-criticism. We struggled to find a plan that would work for a very different vision.

I actually think we got there at the end, but it was much later than it should have been in a perfect world or if we had just done a better job figuring it out earlier. It literally took us all that time to figure out something that would work. I think what we presented in 2021 which is really ending the narrow version of gifted and talented making it something where we tap into the tens of thousands of kids each year gifts, not just a few thousand, I think that's the way of the future. I understand we presented that plan late and for something like that to work, I think it's going to take real-time to develop.

Brian Lehrer: Last one, do you think he's reversing the progress you made on COVID through your vaccine mandates? You're a national leader on that. He ended the mandate for restaurants and clubs, gyms. We have an uptick right now. The biggest since January and the big announcement from City Hall this week is that they're lifting the vaccine mandate for high school proms.

Mayor de Blasio: No, I'm going to say this. I think we're in a very different moment on COVID than even where I was five, six months ago. What I would say is essential is to keep every mandate available at all times. Meaning if COVID has thrown us so many curve balls and anyone who thinks they understand COVID they've got another thing coming. I'm not going to criticize him.

He knows the latest, his health team knows the latest information in ways I don't. I'd say this as a friendly reminder to keep those strong tools available. You may need them real soon. Thank you for what you said that yes, New York city did lead the nation on vaccine mandates. Thank God we did, because it helped us save a lot of lives, but also helped us bring our city back. I don't think they're going to be needed the way they used to be, but we don't know that yet they have to be held in reserve. Just because this is so unpredictable

Brian Lehrer: In fairness to him, he does say that too. He is holding these in reserve to reimpose if he thinks the time comes. On your way out the door, Mr. Mayor, what should we make of the fact that these articles you're publishing are about national and international affairs and not New York City? Does it say something about where you think your future lies?

Mayor de Blasio: It's to me, really important to speak to these issues because I think right now, I mean as much as what's happening in New York City is for me, my first love and so much that is pressing. We're in a moment that's so hard to describe the challenges facing this country. They're so profound and we are so rudderless compared to what we've seen in the past. That's what I feel called to speak about.

The good news is I really, I think you'll see in these two pieces in The Atlantic and Newsweek, there's optimism. I really feel in my heart. It's a very tough time. It's a very disorienting time, but I still think there's a tremendous possibility for coming out of this in a better place. I just feel called to talk about that and I hope it contributes something

Brian Lehrer: It's great to have you back again. I'm sure it won't be the last time. Thank you as always.

Mayor de Blasio: I enjoy these times together, Brian. Thank you. As I told you my last time back in December, thank you for giving New Yorkers, this dialogue on so many topics. It's really cherished out there. I can tell you people say to me all the time that your show means a hell of a lot to them.

 

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